Newbie
Hi Sun. You have put forth an interesting theory. I'm particularly interested in Chapter 2 of your book. Could you please summarise it here?
And could you summarise your ideas on how the creation of rift valleys account for the accumulation or production of water? I'm interested in the mechanism.
Established Member
Dear Arneb, Van Rijn and ChaosKnight:
Rift and Water
Concise summary:
Plate movement had necessarily happened on a planet if there exists rift valleys there. As the movement of plates dredged up rock from the depths of the planet and brought it backs down again, it could have transported both water and carbon dioxide. The recycled carbon dioxide may have generated, or at least helped sustain, a dense, carbon-rich atmosphere early in the history of the planet. This blanket of greenhouse gas could have warmed the planet to be humid…
Sincerely yours,
Tianxi Sun
Professorial Senior Engineer
P. R. of China
sun45114@yahoo.com.cn
Newbie
Hi Sun,
As i understand, rift valleys are caused by plate tectonic movements. They are large scale earth movements but do not always generate water. Please clarify the following:
1) Do you have any information that rift valleys always dredge up large bodies of water? ie the source of water is not from accumulation from rain or existing lakes, but from deep within the Earth.
2) As i understand, there are a number of lakes in the Great Rift Valley in Africa. These water bodies are result of accumulation after the geographical features are formed. Can you explain why the lakes in these valleys are more prone to forming life, as opposed to freshwater lakes/ seas that are located elsewhere?
3) Can you explain why the existance of carbon dioxide in rift valleys is more significant to the formation of life compared to other sources of carbon dioxide, e.g. from volcanos not within rift valleys?
Established Member
Dear Cugel:Originally Posted by Cugel
Please see the website as follows:
http://www.spacetoday.org/SolSys/Mar...Scout2007.html
The website said:
"A robot explorer named Phoenix will be launched by NASA in August 2007 to land and scout the high northern latitudes of Mars in May 2008.
The lander would touch down on terrain suspected of covering a vast reservoir of water ice just a foot beneath the surface. Phoenix would look for water in ice on and just beneath the surface and search the arctic soil for signs of life."
So, the main task of Phoenix should be indeed to search the Marian life!
Sincerely yours,
Tianxi Sun
Professorial Senior Engineer
P. R. of China
sun45114@yahoo.com.cn
Established Member
Hi ChaosKnight,
My meaning didn’t really get across. You have almost completely misconstrued what I said(#33).
Please read my "Concise summary"(#32) again carefully, thanks.
Please notice such a word "recycled".
Sincerely yours,
Tianxi Sun
Professorial Senior Engineer
P. R. of China
Order of Kilopi
WHY?
This comment is almost an insult without a reason why it's misunderstood.
If you think something was misunderstood, then reading again will not clear it up, unless it is explained what was misunderstood.
Besides, that's what questions are for... to clear up the misunderstandings. ChaosKnight has asked a question to try to understand what you say. You did not answer, you just said he's wrong without explaination.
Established Member
Sun,
I still don't quite understand what you mean by a "star" in the context of rifts. My guess is you may be referring to a 'triple junction' which is roughly a star pattern (i.e. Red Sea, African Rift Valley, and Gulf of Aden).
Also what/where is the rift valley(s) in North America? What sort of age are you suggesting? The African Rift Valley is still active and fairly young (geologically).
Established Member
Well OK.... It has a camera so I guess any passing herd of elephants wouldn't go unnoticed. However, none of the other science instruments are geared toward looking for life and they actually couldn't detect if it were s(h)itting on top of it. It can't detect isotopic ratios nor can it detect chirality. Maybe it could snif a bit of methane but you couldn't tell if that was of biological origin or otherwise. Its main task is to do chemical analysis of soil samples. Not to look for life.
In a few years (2010) we will have a Mars rover called Mars Science Lab (MSL). This machine will be capable of looking for life and probably will land in a more promissing location. Maybe even a valley?!
Vulcan Administrator
NASA would definitely love to plunk a rover down right in the middle of Valles Marineris. But it's a matter of having the technology to do so with confidence of success. The EDL approach used for the rovers had a footprint that covered some dangerous areas, plus it couldn't handle the strong winds that blow through the valley.
Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.
Order of Kilopi
There is a major problem with your theory, that being that it completely ignores and disagrees with DNA evidence.
Order of Kilopi
Seems to me that you are confusing rift valleys with subduction zones and the volcanism that is associated with them. In the US, this would be the Cascade Range where volcanism is caused by offshore subduction. This volcanism is where some elements are being recycled back to the surface after having been subducted.
This is NOT the same thing as a rift valley, which is where plates are moving apart.
Order of Kilopi
Dna...
Aurora. Agreed. The recent Nova program tracing the Y chromosome through the genetic pools of the world was quite compelling. There is the further evidence from the etymology of languages, pointing pretty much to the same story from an independent line of reasoning. While few dispute the role of Olduvai Gorge in anthropology...carrying that to the n th degree might not be too true beyond Terra Firma.
Established Member
Hi, teddyv:
In the dictionary, by "star" is meant "any one of the bodies seen in the sky at night as distant points of light". In my book, by "star" is meant planets and Moons.
Sincerely yours,
Tianxi Sun
Professorial Senior Engineer
P. R. of China
sun45114@yahoo.com.cn
Newbie
Hi Sun, i don't think i misunderstood anything. I'll rephrase my question. With reference to this:
Question 1:
I am asking if you have evidence that plate movement have dredged up large amounts of water from the earth, i.e. the water is not accumulated over time due to the low ground formed by tectonic movements, but is transported from the depth of the earth. This is what you claimed. Is there evidence to support it?
Question 2:
If the conditions are such that:
1. Plate tectonic movements caused a rift valley.
2. Water is present, and so is carbon dioxide.
Why are the chances of life forming in the above region higher than a region that is, for example
1. Volcanic activity cause the release of carbon dioxide
2. Near the sea or a lake with freshwater
3. In the absence of a rift valley
e.g. the Hawaiian Islands?
Established Member
Hi teddyv,
There exists two continental rift valleys in North America:
1. The Western Rift Valley System (also call it after "Basin and Mountain Province"). It's said that the rifts might start in "the end of Miocene Epoch", i.e., about 20-30 million year ago,very young;
2. The Eastern Triassic Rift Valley. It's said the rift start from Triassic Period, i.e., about 190-200 million year ago.
Sincerely,
Tianxi Sun
Established Member
Dear Cugel,
What is your mean by 'chirality'? I can't look it up in my dictionary.
Tianxi Sun
Established Member
Dear ToSeek,
Would you please tell me how many meters the Valles Marineris' width is? And its winds velocity? Thank you.
Tianxi Sun
Established Member
It's the spatial orientation of complex molecules like amino acids.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality_%28chemistry%29
It happens that living creatures favor a particular brand of chirality, where non-living systems will usually do not. (For unknown reasons as far as I know) It is considered a very strong bio-indicator and can be detected with very small equipment (chips). It is something mission management don't want on their Mars lander because it is garanteed to find nothing. Which would count as a negative result (with the general public and decision makers) and that of course is very bad. For funding in particular. Getting these Mars missions funded is the main reason why everybody is yelling and screaming how their mission is looking for life. In reality you can't do that because it's not there and you just want to do proper science like geology, climate research and chemical makeup.
Established Member
Dear Cugel,
1. Your message is a great encouragement to me. I wish the Mars Science Lab (MSL) great success!
2. Moreover, thank you very much for your advice about 'chirality' just now.
Tianxi Sun
Established Member
Hi aurora,
Could you please explain it in detail? And what evidence?Thanks you.
Tianxi Sun
Vulcan Administrator
Valles Marineris is about 200 kilometers wide, though this varies a lot. There's also a lot of rough terrain.
Winds are on the order of 25 m/sec horizontally and can be up to 5 m/sec vertically. The combination of the wind and terrain eliminated Melas Chasma as a possible landing site, despite one Mars geologist calling it "the best landing site on Mars."
I've appended some links you might find of interest.
Proposed Melas Chasma landing site
Meteorology of proposed Mars Exploration Rover landing sites
Mars Rover Landing Site Sweet Spots Not So Sweet
Mars Rover Landing Spots - Blowing In The Wind
Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.
Established Member
[QUOTE=ToSeek]Valles Marineris is about 200 kilometers wide, though this varies a lot. There's also a lot of rough terrain.
Winds are on the order of 25 m/sec horizontally and can be up to 5 m/sec vertically. The combination of the wind and terrain eliminated Melas Chasma as a possible landing site, despite one Mars geologist calling it "the best landing site on Mars."
I've appended some links you might find of interest.
[QUOTE]
Dear ToSeek,
Very thanks for your help.
Fossils of Martian Organisms might be on the terraces within Valles Marineris if there exists life in Mars, I think.
So, landing Valles Marineris' terraces to unearth Martian fossils should be the best strategic decision, and most directly! Please pass on this view to NASA.
Thank you!
Tianxi Sun
Vulcan Administrator
There's a list of potential MSL landing sites (and other information) linked to from this page. I count at least four candidates in Valles Marineris. I daresay it will come down more to engineering constraints than scientific ones, as was the case with the rovers.
I can't pretend to have any influence on such matters.
Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.
Order of Kilopi
See message #42 in this thread. The Native Americans are related to other humans, they did not originate in a rift valley in the Americas.
Also, note that you are proposing that rifts (or failed rifts) that are tens or hundreds of millions of years old somehow caused human beings to originate in the Americas, when there is no evidence of human occupation before roughly 10,000 years. That's a pretty big gap you have to explain away.
If this point in your book has such an obvious flaw, I daresay that there are many more problems with what you have proposed.
Order of Kilopi
Far more than "related." The genetic differences between all humans is tiny. There is simply no way that any humans developed through a parallel evolutionary path.
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?
The Leif Ericson Cruiser
Established Member
Hi trinitree88 and aurora,
Please explain the facts as follows:
1. Bw54 is used to be called "the Yellow's Antigen".But,
BW54 of the American Indians is just equal to zero. By contrast, BW54 of the Chinese is 4.71 and of the Japanese7.3;
2. As for Gene B of blood-type, it's extinct in the American Indians whereas universal in the Asian.
Tianxi Sun
Established Member
Hi Van Rijn,
Please explain the specific characteristics of Ainu.
Tianxi Sun
Order of Kilopi
Trivial genetic variation within the human population. Genetically, humans are a very homogeneous species. I would recommend you study up on genetics, evolution, and paleontology. I think you would be surprised.
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?
The Leif Ericson Cruiser
Newbie
Hi Sun, you have evaded my questions so far. Let me ask them for the 3rd time.
Your core idea is that rift valleys are THE place for life to form.
Rift valleys is where water is dredged up. Do you have evidence of this?
What advantage does rift valleys have over other geological features that have water/carbon dioxide that makes it more suitable for life to form?
Order of Kilopi
And, explain how a 20 million year old failed rift could cause humans to appear 20 million years later.
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