New(?) 911 bad science

[Chainsaw1]

That is true but you only need the sound to break the outer coating of the Aluminum continually so that it will burn you do not need deep capitation in the fluid just the continual disruption of the protective layer on top any intense pressure wave does that.
Break the coating the Aluminum itself auto heats from constant re exposure.
To Oxygen or CO2. Also since CO2 is less reactive the Aluminum coating does not form as well.
If you actually use intense ultra sound the structure of he Iron oxide is broken before it becomes liquid.
So you would simply have a limited thermite reaction inside the fluid that would only cause limited heating and expansion.

[Architect]

Can someone either point me to or give a good explanation as to why the tower would break up and fall mostly straight down after starting to lean.
I feel the answer has something to do with the joints in the building giving once the force of gravity is working on a angle to the joint.( something like the fact that my son can sit on our dinner table chairs and they do not break but once he got into the habit of leaning back on them he has now broken a couple.)
And the fact that a tree is more of a solid packed structure ( maybe it is because a tree doesn't really have joints also)whereas a building is mostly air. But I always tell my kids all matter is made up of mostly empty space. Don't know if I am correct when I tell them that

I'm not sold on the linked quote by Liverpool, so just to summarise (and in borad, fairly non-technical terms):

The joints in tall buildings are built to resist resist gravitational loads (be they "dead", i.e. the structure, or "live" being the occupants and furnishings), which are obviously vertical, plus a certain amount of tranverse wind loadings.

As the towers collapse and start to move sideways, the tranverse loadings increase beyond design capacity and shear. At this point gravity takes hold and the whole thing drops pdq.

A tree trunk is a bad comparison because the solid nature is sufficient to accommodate the shear loads (and there's no pin joints anyway, just before Jay corrects me). If WTC had been solid timber or steel instead of offices and the like, it might well have toppled over.

Let me give you a parallel. Tall domestic chimneys - say the slender ones, 6 or 8 feet tall, on Victorian houses (I have one, you see). When they blow over in storms (alas), they do not topple over but rather shear across a weak mortar bed and then drop more or less vertically. Usually through a roof or onto the car in the adjacent drive. Yet we don't think this is strange.

The only way a tall building might topple would be if an absolutely massive horizontal force was applied continuously and evenly (arguably a bit more at the top) to an entire facade at once, such that there was little shear because the whole structure rotated as one. But that would be impossible.....

[Swift]

I wasn't sure if this was the best thread, but here is an article from CNN.com.

Kevin Barrett believes the U.S. government might have destroyed the World Trade Center. Steven Jones is researching what he calls evidence that the twin towers were brought down by explosives detonated inside them, not by hijacked airliners.

These men aren't uneducated junk scientists: Barrett will teach a class on Islam at the University of Wisconsin this fall, over the protests of more than 60 state legislators. Jones is a tenured physicist at Brigham Young University whose mainstream academic job has made him a hero to conspiracy theorists.

Barrett isn't a junk scientist, he isn't any kind of scientist.

But later in the article, talking about Scholars for 9/11 Truth...

The organization says publicity over Barrett's case has helped boost membership to about 75 academics. They are a tiny minority of the 1 million part- and full-time faculty nationwide, and some have no university affiliation. Most aren't experts in relevant fields.

But some are well educated, with degrees from elite universities such as Princeton and Stanford and jobs at schools including Rice, Indiana and the University of Texas.

[Architect]

Well it just goes to show that you can be an educated fool....

[Chainsaw1]

I am content to wait on your publication, in which case, you might want to stop teasing us with these little bits. When you can discuss this, let's discuss it.

I would like some evidence that the chimney effect in fires can produce ultrasonics, and if so, are of similar amplitude and frequency as that in sonochemistry. I also suspect that even if it can produce ultrasound in air, that you do not get the cavitation effect that is necessary for the chemistry (the article I linked to explains that the cavitation, not the sound, is what drives the chemistry).

I am familiar with cavitation around propellers in water, but I don't see how this relates to the WTC.

Cavitation can occur in any fluid flow, where turbulence is involved, Liquid or Gaseous.
http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/....082301.114957

And yes even mice can generate ultra sound, though air movements though the nostrils.
http://www.frontiersinzoology.com/content/3/1/3

Ultra sound is a fact of nature, any turbulent fluid flow will produce it.
However the shock waves formed by intense sound pressure waves though air are more important in this.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Well it just goes to show that you can be an educated fool....

Reminds me a quote I once got out a Unix "Fortune" program:

"An intellectual is somebody who has been educated beyond his level of intelligence......"

[Chainsaw1]

Let me put it this way, with this torch, I can safely make Iron Oxide inclusions in Aluminum for test purposes.
http://chainsawsanders.com/Oxy1.JPG
Here are some of the inclusion I use in the experiments.
http://chainsawsanders.com/fuel.JPG
While with this torch, all I get is thermite reactions that produce Iron particles.
http://chainsawsanders.com/natural.JPG
http://chainsawsanders.com/Iron1.JPG
I heated both samples of the same mass, and tried it with both torches, the Oxyacetylene would never work the acetylene would not fail, Why?
The Oxyacetylene produces a stable hot flame by reducing cavitation, with an artificial oxygen source. It produces less noise and almost no Ultra sound.

[PhantomWolf]

Chainsaw, I think that you really are over thinking the senario. While you could be right about what went on inside the fluid situation of the WTC, I seriously doubt that anyone in Al Quaeda would have determined it, or even modelled it. For them hitting the buildings with the planes was enough, in fact OBL himself has stated they were surprised with the buildings fell.

I think that the more likely explanation of the targets is more likely that they were choosen as symbols of perceived American strength. If Al Quaeda could strike at the Comercial Heart (The WTC) the Political Heart (White House, Senate) and/or the Military Heart (Pentagon) of the US, they could send a message to Americans that they were safe no where, that if they didn't do what Al Quaeda wanted, that they could be attacked at will anytime, anywhere. It was the analogy of taking out the biggest guy in the group in a fight. When he drops, the others will fear you more. Here Al Quaeda did the same, they targeted the buildings of greatest impotance to the US three power structures knowing that when they did that, everyone else would fear them and hopefully put pressure on the Government to conceed to the demands. That bit the miscalulated.

[Swift]

Let me put it this way, with this torch, I can safely make Iron Oxide inclusions in Aluminum for test purposes.
http://chainsawsanders.com/Oxy1.JPG
Here are some of the inclusion I use in the experiments.
http://chainsawsanders.com/fuel.JPG
While with this torch, all I get is thermite reactions that produce Iron particles.
http://chainsawsanders.com/natural.JPG
http://chainsawsanders.com/Iron1.JPG
I heated both samples of the same mass, and tried it with both torches, the Oxyacetylene would never work the acetylene would not fail, Why?
The Oxyacetylene produces a stable hot flame by reducing cavitation, with an artificial oxygen source. It produces less noise and almost no Ultra sound.

Chainsaw1, I don't really understand what you are doing. I suspect that if I ask for details, such as how you determined the bead you created was iron metal, and not, for example, magnetite or some other iron oxide, you would tell me you have to wait for the article to be published.

Also, as PhantomWolf says, I'm not sure what any of this has to do with 9/11.

Why don't you wait, publish your article, and then give us a detailed explanation.

[Chainsaw1]

The only substances I used in the experiment were black iron oxide, and Aluminum there was no iron that large in the materials, and I could not crush it like I could any Iron oxide in the pliers. I also ground a small piece off of the material off the surface and it was metallic in structure not crystalline.
I did the experiment ten times the same results each time. That by the way is just the smallest sample. I had already done the sound experiment, and then I wanted to see the effects of a chimney effect on the molten Aluminum.
Read Dr Greening's paper on formation of natural thermite, I found the trigger to the loaded gun.
Plus I personally observed the blight white flashes of the reactions.
I can produce as much thermite as big as I want now that I know how, but it is dangerous because non solid thermite is no long solely and endothermic.
Maybe if Dr. Jones had used a 29 dollar torch we would not have been arguing about this for four years, what do you think?
You guys actually helped me in this by providing me information and logical assessments, without political overturns, Thank You. I do sincerely appreciate it.

[Chainsaw1]

I thought about that but it is to easy, for them to do play with the stuff long enough and you find it out.
Plus you have no Idea what would have happened when the capital dome, a cast iron dome, was exposed to an aluminum fire the thing would have sparked into the aluminum, as all cast metals do it would have been worse than the twin towers.
I have seen what happens when you set this stuff off at 1550c it scares me! Me! and I was once crazy enough to shoot myself out over a lake using a piece of a stick of dynamite. However I am smarter now, I was only 11 or 12 then, and I did not repeat that either.

[phunk]

Yeah but the building will collapse as expected at much lower than 1550C. There's no evidence or need for there to have been thermite in any quantity, natural or artificial, involved in the collapse.

[Tog]

I thought about that but it is to easy, for them to do play with the stuff long enough and you find it out.

But then, here's my issue with this. I'm not saying that there couldn't have been a sound induced thermite reaction. It's well beyond me to do so.

What I'm saying showing the reaction was possible is a long way from showing that it was planned.

A group that has the time a resources to plan an attack that will use the fuels in the weapon and the target to create a reaction that the world has never seen on such a scale, who then executes that attack without testing on the scale involved, hardly seem the type to go back to flak jackets filled with C-4 a few months later.

To put it another way, the high school bully won't just stop hitting you everyday in favor of an elaborate booby trap in your locker that uses a jar of water with a bit of phosphorus stuck to the bottom that will ignite when the jar tips as the door is opened, igniting the thin layer of gasoine that floats back to the top of the water in the jar, causing an explosion that blows up your locker and burns your homework, only to go back to just hitting you.

[Chainsaw1]

Does not matter if it collapses because of thermite, or the temperature of the burning aluminum and there is evidence of thermite reactions and physical abnormalities that can be explained if a natural high explosive is found. Oh and sound and ultra sound also effect steel, even Prof. Eagar believes that thermites or burning Aluminum played a role, his brother is writing the article in the paper. Dr. Greening and Mark Ferran's work point out the dangers, of it forming.
Alquida wanted to bring the towers and the USA down, they failed in the first attempt, if they were going to risk lives in a complicated plan, they would have researched it. They were bright intelligent people and experts on explosives, if they by purpose or by accident figured out how dangerous natural thermite was they would have conformed their plans around its usage.
I know that I can not prove positive they knew, but everything seems to point that way, the way the planes hit the buildings themselves, the structure of the buildings, except for the new construction at the pentagon,
The foiled hijack plot over seas that they knew would never get though NORAD, but that would trigger an exercise that could cause confusion, giving them opportunity.
The Hijackers staying with the pilot who worked for Raytheon, the exact type of weapon that would have been used in the exercise.
It all looks so connected, but then with enough dots any picture can be drawn.

[Chainsaw1]

Sorry about the way the last post is conformed, I am tired and still having a little problem with my eyes.
Also I should mention that aluminum with reactive inclusions can be red, orange, white, or (boom) depending on the sound energy, amount of inclusions, and the heat radiated.

[phunk]

but everything seems to point that way, the way the planes hit the buildings themselves, the structure of the buildings

I don't think any evidence points towards them knowing an obscure reaction might happen between the plane and the building, and I don't think any evidence points towards that reaction actually happening on any significant scale. Would you care to provide evidence of either?

Keep in mind that the sulfidation that everyone else points to as evidence of thermite does not support your theory.

[Chainsaw1]

I don't think any evidence points towards them knowing an obscure reaction might happen between the plane and the building, and I don't think any evidence points towards that reaction actually happening on any significant scale. Would you care to provide evidence of either?

Keep in mind that the sulfidation that everyone else points to as evidence of thermite does not support your theory.

It will be in the article, by Mr. Henry Eagar, and the reaction is not obscure it has to occur in a Chimney effect fire, where aluminum, and steel is involved it is simply a matter of the right materials in the right conditions. It also explains a lot including the pentagon plane, and it is so simple.
It all has to do with the melting and vaporization temperatures of Aluminum, Aluminum Oxide, and Iron Oxide, and it is completely predictable in what situations it would occur.
Everyone has thought of thermites as fine powders where they have endothermic tendencies, can you imagine what happens when they can be made to come together as Liquids with out them having to absorb heat to react. I have looked into a reaction as bright as the sun from 40 feet away, that is why my eyes are bothering me. My greatest fear is not for myself but for the horrible weapon that might be created from this.

[phunk]

What liquids? The plane didn't melt on impact, it was shreded, and the steel that it impacted was cold, it took time to heat up.

What about the pentagon plane do you think needs explaining?

[captain swoop]

what horrible weapon?

[Gillianren]

Hey, Chainsaw, no offense, man, but I hope that your article is better-written than your posts, because I have a hard time getting through your posts. I also don't understand what you're trying to explain, but that's about equally likely to be a failing on my part, given my shaky understanding of the subject at hand.

[Chainsaw1]

I am still having vision problems so I might be a little off on the posting, extremely bright white light does that even with a welding hood.
I just had to see the reaction for myself out of curiosity.
My curiosity is now satisfied and I never want to see it again.

[Chainsaw1]

What you need to know is that Dr. Steven Jones's theories have to rule out natural explosives in the buildings, and natural thermite, thermate compounds, I can now show that is Impossible because under the right conditions they are bound to form. Even in building 7 where the planes did no hit the building.
The are natural compounds they just do not form like Dr. Jones thinks they do.

[phunk]

What you need to know is that Dr. Steven Jones's theories have to rule out natural explosives in the buildings, and natural thermite, thermate compounds

Before he has to rule out specific sources of explosives, he has to show that there were explosives. Otherwise it's like arguing what kind of death ray the aliens used to destroy the buildings without showing any proof that there were aliens to begin with. Pointless.

[Donnie B.]

I don't see Chainsaw's experiment as pointless.

Consider it this way: conspiracist J says that residues of chemicals X, Y, and Z were found in the rubble of the WTC. Chemicals X, Y, and Z are known to form from burning of thermite. Thermite is not normally found in high rise office buildings nor are X, Y, and Z formed in normal combustion of office buildings or their contents. Therefore this proves that thermite was placed in the WTC and the only reason for that would be controlled demolition of the towers.

But wait, says experimenter C. I have created chemicals X, Y, and Z in proportions similar to those in the WTC rubble, and I did it without using thermite and using only materials and conditions present in the towers during and after the collapse. Therefore the conclusion of conspiracist J are invalid, since X, Y, and Z are expected to occur under those conditions.

Hope your eyes are okay, Chainsaw. Maybe you should hire Gillian as your proofreader.

[PhantomWolf]

Consider it this way: conspiracist J says that residues of chemicals X, Y, and Z were found in the rubble of the WTC. Chemicals X, Y, and Z are known to form from burning of thermite. Thermite is not normally found in high rise office buildings nor are X, Y, and Z formed in normal combustion of office buildings or their contents. Therefore this proves that thermite was placed in the WTC and the only reason for that would be controlled demolition of the towers.

But wait, says experimenter C. I have created chemicals X, Y, and Z in proportions similar to those in the WTC rubble, and I did it without using thermite and using only materials and conditions present in the towers during and after the collapse. Therefore the conclusion of conspiracist J are invalid, since X, Y, and Z are expected to occur under those conditions.

I agree, but the questions here are:

a) Have all the chemicals residues that are formed by thermite been found?
b) If so, could they be explained without thermite?
c) If not, is there evidence that the materials would have indead reacted naturally?
and d) Would those in Al Quaeda actually have known and expected it to have occured, or did they just think, big plane, big boom, towers might suffer enough damage to be knocked over, or at least have to be pulled down?

[Chainsaw1]

Yes Chemical residues have been found.
Yes but only with difficulty, and there are abnormalities in the collapse.
It is not a question of them reacting naturally they had to be there just they needed mixing and a trigger source, Movement, agitation, sound.

I think they stumbled accidental on the explosive effect of hot burning aluminum explosive traveling at high speeds by accident, when conceiving the plan.
I think they constructed a crude model to do a fuels test, basically a metal structure to see what the Aluminum and Kerosene would do before they sent people to die in the attacks.
I think they wanted to spray hot burning metal down form the towers and out of the buildings on the fire fighters and first responders, but the towers collapsed before the reaction reached its peak.
The pentagon did not form the reaction because they hit the new construction.
The bright white flash would have definitely been noticeable.
The strikes on the towers were at the perfect place for the chimney effect to be at its best. If they had hit the capital building with the cast iron dome I think we would have seen a lot more destruction than most realize do to the cast sparking and burning.

[Chainsaw1]

Yes Chemical residues have been found.
Yes but only with difficulty, and there are abnormalities in the collapse.
It is not a question of them reacting naturally they had to be there just they needed mixing and a trigger source, Movement, agitation, sound.

I think they stumbled accidental on the explosive effect of hot burning aluminum iron Oxide, explosive traveling at high speeds by accident, when conceiving the plan.
I think they constructed a crude model to do a fuels test, basically a metal structure chimney to see what the Aluminum and Kerosene would do before they sent people to die in the attacks.
I think they wanted to spray hot burning metal down form the towers and out of the buildings on the fire fighters and first responders, but the towers collapsed before the reaction reached its peak.
The pentagon did not form the reaction because they hit the new construction.
The bright white flash would have definitely been noticeable.
The strikes on the towers were at the perfect place for the chimney effect to be at its best. If they had hit the capital building with the cast iron dome I think we would have seen a lot more destruction than most realize do to the cast sparking and burning.

[PhantomWolf]

Yes Chemical residues have been found.

What were they? What if anything is missing?

Yes but only with difficulty

Why?

there are abnormalities in the collapse.

Such as?

I think they stumbled accidental on the explosive effect of hot burning aluminum explosive traveling at high speeds by accident, when conceiving the plan.

Proof? Or is this totally speculation?

I think they constructed a crude model to do a fuels test, basically a metal structure to see what the Aluminum and Kerosene would do before they sent people to die in the attacks.

Proof? Or is this totally speculation?

I think they wanted to spray hot burning metal down form the towers and out of the buildings on the fire fighters and first responders

Proof? Or is this totally speculation?

[Chainsaw1]

Yes Chemical residues have been found.

What were they? What if anything is missing?

Yes but only with difficulty

Why?

there are abnormalities in the collapse.

Such as?

I think they stumbled accidental on the explosive effect of hot burning aluminum explosive traveling at high speeds by accident, when conceiving the plan.

Proof? Or is this totally speculation?

I think they constructed a crude model to do a fuels test, basically a metal structure to see what the Aluminum and Kerosene would do before they sent people to die in the attacks.

Proof? Or is this totally speculation?

I think they wanted to spray hot burning metal down form the towers and out of the buildings on the fire fighters and first responders

Proof? Or is this totally speculation?

PhantomWolf,

Thomas Eagar would know more about the abnormalities than I would, but he believes a thermite reaction was seen at the world trade center he just asked me to find the trigger.

" So Mr. Eagar has become reluctantly familiar with Mr. Jones's hypothesis, and he is not impressed. For example, he says, the cascade of yellow-hot particles coming out of the south tower could be any number of things: a butane can igniting, sparks from an electrical arc, molten aluminum and water forming a hydrogen reaction — or, perhaps most likely, a spontaneous, completely accidental thermite reaction.

Occasionally, he says, given enough mingled surface area, molten aluminum and rust can react violently, à la thermite. Given that there probably was plenty of molten aluminum from the plane wreckage in that building, Mr. Eagar says, it is entirely possible that this is what happened.

Others have brought up this notion as well, so Mr. Jones has carried out experiments in his lab trying to get small quantities of molten aluminum to react with rust. He has not witnessed the reaction and so rules it out. But Mr. Eagar says this is just a red herring: Accidental thermite reactions are a well-known phenomenon, he says. It just takes a lot of exposed surface area for the reaction to start.

Still, Mr. Eagar does not care to respond formally to Mr. Jones or the conspiracy movement. "I don't see any point in engaging them," he says."

If natural thermite existed it would explain a lot, especially since Dr. Jones does not know what forms it or the true properties it can exhibit due to it's energy potential.
Plus finding out that natural thermite or burning aluminum fits in well with Prof. Eagar earlier assertion that burning aluminum was a factor in weakening the Steel.
Dr Frank Greening was asked by Prof. Eagar how it could have formed chemically, so he proposed the experiments that Dr. Jones did, the experiments had no reactions they could not have had any, they were too, static.
So Dr. Jones declared that no natural thermite played a part in the collapse, and that gave a real life to his Controlled Demolition theory.
If natural thermite is found Dr. Jones's theory collapses in on itself.
So the thermite aspects have always been the deepest mystery.
I had already done a lot of work and understood how thermite was formed, in certain situations.
So I was put in contact with Dr. Greening he guided me and I did the experiments and found the triggers by recreating conditions present at the towers.
Also I found similar conditions at building 7 Dr. Jones has always claimed that natural thermite could not have formed in that building, because no plane hit it, but what I found is that the diesel generators in the building ruining spread ultra sound though out the building.
That would have been the perfect environment not only for thermite, and or burning molten aluminum but also for chemical reactions with Iron and sulfur solving two problems at once.
I think the experiments and the work are worth wild because they might make buildings safer in the future if we know what cause the conditions of 9/11/2001 fully.
What really convinces me that the terrorist knew what they were doing is if I can figure this out in my back yard, just playing with Aluminum, steel, and fire why can they not.
They had more education than I and more resources than I, I had to scrounge the local Scrap metal yard for the parts I need.
I basically figured this out using junk that I could scrounge, and that I had on the farm.
If you want to know more about the abnormalities then they will be in Dr. Greening's next paper, I am only told that finding the source and potential for thermite naturally will answer a lot of scientific questions.
They did not tell me how, however, and I kinda got the Idea that I was considered (expendable).
True a lot of what I said is speculation, but I might be the only one who has seen the reaction up close and it could be my fear that some one would intentionally use that against innocent people talking.

[phunk]

For example, he says, the cascade of yellow-hot particles coming out of the south tower could be any number of things: a butane can igniting, sparks from an electrical arc, molten aluminum and water forming a hydrogen reaction — or, perhaps most likely, a spontaneous, completely accidental thermite reaction.

I think you skipped the most likely explanation. There was a bonfire of burning office furnature in that corner of the building and it's simply burning embers falling. That corner of the building is where the bulk of the office contents would have been swept by the crash.