Peak oil...ideas?

[peteshimmon]

Depressing supplement in the paper recently.
It looks pretty certain to be a crisis in 5 to
10 years! But what to do? Panic when we have
to? Lets start an ideas list in Brainstorming
mode. After all there will be plenty of work
to be done in getting used to expensive
energy. My idea is to massivly insulate
homes and use photocells to electrolysise
water during the day for burning the
hydrogen at night. Not much output but with
ventilation heat recovery it should work!
Anything else on transport, farming, everything?

[Candy]

Iceland the First Country to Try Abandoning Gasoline

REYKJAVIK, Iceland, Jan. 18, 2005 — Iceland has energy to spare, and the small country has found a cutting-edge way to reduce its oil dependency. Volcanoes formed the island nation out of ash and lava, and molten rock heats huge underground lakes to the boiling point.

The hot water — energy sizzling beneath the surface — is piped into cities and stored in giant tanks, providing heat for homes, businesses and even swimming pools.

The volcanoes melted ice, which formed rivers. The water runs through turbines, providing virtually all the country's electricity.

Iceland wants to make a full conversion and plans to modify its cars, buses and trucks to run on renewable energy — with no dependence on oil.

Water Turned Into Fuel

Iceland has already started by turning water into fuel — hydrogen fuel.

Here's how it works: Electrodes split the water into hydrogen and oxygen molecules. Hydrogen electrons pass through a conductor that creates the current to power an electric engine.

I thought this article was very interesting.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Nuclear power plants for electricity. Use them to make hydrogen to use in cars. Problem solved.

Besides that, oil isn't likely to run out for a very long time. 5 to 10 years? Alarmist at best.

[LurchGS]

yeah - discussed on other thread not too long ago. 50 years is better guess.

Keep in mind, though, Iceland is not a good model for other countries. Aside from one or two in the Mediteranean, are there any active volcanoes in europe?

Population is negligible in comparison to most other countries,too.

(is similar issue to railfans who insist that since railroads work marvelously in europe, they ought to here in the states. difference in scale means nothing to them)

Nuke plants are a better idea than solar cells - cleaner. I admit, though, I'm contemplating adding solar water heating to the house.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Hey, it beats a do-it-yourself PBR.

[montebianco]

Depressing supplement in the paper recently.
It looks pretty certain to be a crisis in 5 to
10 years! But what to do? Panic when we have
to? Lets start an ideas list in Brainstorming
mode. After all there will be plenty of work
to be done in getting used to expensive
energy. My idea is to massivly insulate
homes and use photocells to electrolysise
water during the day for burning the
hydrogen at night. Not much output but with
ventilation heat recovery it should work!
Anything else on transport, farming, everything?

Well, the usual solution proposed at this forum is not to wait until the future to switch to more expensive sources of energy, but rather to switch to the more expensive sources now. I will leave it to the forum members with no training in or understanding of economics to explain why that makes good economic sense.

[Wolverine]

yeah - discussed on other thread not too long ago.

I was looking for that thread but couldn't find it. Anyone have a link handy?

[Argos]

The Oil Depletion thread.

[peteshimmon]

There There....Dont let nasty man upset you...
Oil and Gas will be there for ever and ever
and ever...there. Now how about some ideas
just in case

[Fram]

(is similar issue to railfans who insist that since railroads work marvelously in europe, they ought to here in the states. difference in scale means nothing to them)

What differences would that be?
Europe: +- 10,790,000 km˛, population about 700,000,000
US: 9,631,418 km˛, population about 300,000,000

The US have a much sparser population, but (apart from some regions like Alaska probably) I don't see why that would be a real problem. A system like the high speed trains that are being built in France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, the UK, and probably some other countries (Spain and Italy, I think) that links essentially the big cities could work on the east coast of the US as well, perhaps, and certainly looks to me as if there are no serious differences in scale. The gap between the East coast and West coast may be too big and too sparsely populated to have a good railraod system though, so perhaps is that what you meant.
Oh, and the railroad system in Europe isn't so marvelously good everywhere either, although it is fairly good.

[The Supreme Canuck]

There There....Dont let nasty man upset you...
Oil and Gas will be there for ever and ever
and ever...there. Now how about some ideas
just in case

We're not saying that. We're just saying that there is no cause for immediate worry. Also, I would appreciate it if you didn't use such a patronizing tone.

[Wolverine]

The Oil Depletion thread.

That's the one, thanks. I couldn't remember what other term was used (and "oil" is too short a search syntax for the forum software).

[peteshimmon]

I hope most of you recognise good natured ribbing! But you know the main
point, when output starts to fall behind demand, prices go up. And this
may be a brutal process when it is upon us in todays world! Lets
think about house heating. When low income groups need to keep their
families warm, will they start trying to build fireplaces on homes not
designed for them? Will there be fights over the small amount of wood in
urban areas? Will some folk start to suffer more cold related illnesses?
Will there be water shortages due to many burst pipes? Not nice thoughts
are they! Nations have to be ahead of the curve on this issue and I
believe there are solutions for sustainable living but they take time to
implement. I like the idea of solar cells for electrolysis as a steady DC
current is needed so no inverter is required. Next idea please!

[Taks]

What differences would that be?
Europe: +- 10,790,000 km², population about 700,000,000
US: 9,631,418 km², population about 300,000,000

i think this definition of europe inclues all the "new" portions from the former eastern bloc nations. typically when people talk about the rail system that works so fabulously, they're referring to the "old" europe, which is significantly smaller (1/3 i think?) and still has well over half of that population (400-500 million, right?). of course, i don't know how well the new countries are integrated into the rail system...

i have a friend that just came back from the czech republic... i should inquire.

taks

PS: i fully understand that europe as a continent always included the eastern bloc nations... it's just travel in and out of that area was not allowed, so the western europe infrastructure was built up without them.

[Eric Vaxxine]

I used to work on a magazine called GreenFleet.
Fleet vehicles account for 45% of vehicle sold in the UK. A small % are
a) Hybrid (Gas, petrol)
b) Use Bio Fuel (renewable fuel from crops)
c) Hydrogen. (Hydrogen power that makes electricty)

How much fossil fuel is burned for industrial power? I expect it far outstrips our domestic vehicular useage?

I was appalled when I learned the electric car was scuppered in
the late 1800's.

The oil companies are far too quiet about this looming problem. Perhaps they plan to just stop operating after the last barrel is pumped !!!
I think our energy will ultimately come from mirrors and photocells in space.

[Taks]

i would think that as we approach the end of the oil dependency, the exponential growth in prices will force alternative fuel ideas. the oil companies are capitalst entities, and will, by nature, strive to find alternatives as people simply stop using their products. there may be a lag in which many of them fail and close their doors, of course, with only the strongest surviving. but i couldn't even begin to guess how long of a lag that is, nor how many would fall by the wayside.

the latter thought, btw, requires that oil companies see themselves as energy brokers, not just fossil fuel developers. i.e. they're in the business of selling energy, not just oil.

taks

[Argos]

the oil companies are far too quiet about this looming problem. Perhaps they plan to just stop operating after the last barrel is pumped !!!

I used to work for RoyalDutch-Shell. They had a R&D program on Hydrogen back in the 90´s, although I can´t say how is it faring now. The Brazilian Petrobras distributes a fair amount of ethanol throughout the country. So I think they´re not sleeping.

[korjik]

I hope most of you recognise good natured ribbing! But you know the main
point, when output starts to fall behind demand, prices go up. And this
may be a brutal process when it is upon us in todays world! Lets
think about house heating. When low income groups need to keep their
families warm, will they start trying to build fireplaces on homes not
designed for them? Will there be fights over the small amount of wood in
urban areas? Will some folk start to suffer more cold related illnesses?
Will there be water shortages due to many burst pipes? Not nice thoughts
are they! Nations have to be ahead of the curve on this issue and I
believe there are solutions for sustainable living but they take time to
implement. I like the idea of solar cells for electrolysis as a steady DC
current is needed so no inverter is required. Next idea please!

I personally prefer to worry about an asteroid strike as my irrelevant worry subject.

economic forces (supply and demand) will work perfectly fine to keep society running. I think most of the problems with energy inthe next couple decades will be from kooks trying to control the process so that there pet project will be helped.

As the easy sources dry up, the harder sources will be used and alternatives developed. efficcency will become more important and life will go on. Things will change, but life will go on. There will be some chaos, but life will go on!

[montebianco]

I think most of the problems with energy inthe next couple decades will be from kooks trying to control the process so that there pet project will be helped.

I'm with you on that one. I'm not sure who is going to save us from the people who keep saying they want to save us...

As the easy sources dry up, the harder sources will be used and alternatives developed. efficcency will become more important and life will go on. Things will change, but life will go on. There will be some chaos, but life will go on!

I would add that this process is happening now.

[peteshimmon]

Did not a past President state that energy shortages are the moral
equivalent of War? Its a thought. When aggression comes, does the
government issue tenders for the lowest quote in defeating the
aggressor? Common sense suggests you are ready way beforehand!

[Candy]

yeah - discussed on other thread not too long ago. 50 years is better guess.

Keep in mind, though, Iceland is not a good model for other countries. Aside from one or two in the Mediteranean, are there any active volcanoes in europe?

Population is negligible in comparison to most other countries,too.

(is similar issue to railfans who insist that since railroads work marvelously in europe, they ought to here in the states. difference in scale means nothing to them)

Nuke plants are a better idea than solar cells - cleaner. I admit, though, I'm contemplating adding solar water heating to the house.

I've been thinking about this. Do you think when (and if) oil ever runs out that people will migrate to areas where alternative energy sources are a plenty? Or will Nuclear Energy be our savior? Just wondering.

[lek]

Oil will never "suddenly end", it will do so gradually, and not by surprise.

When oil gets more difficult (expensive) to get, the price will go up, at some point some alternative source for energy will become viable option. What's the big deal?

End of oil isn't end of mankind, stop worrying about it.

edit: and i dont think we'll run out or oil in my lifetime

[SolusLupus]

As it is, car companies are finding it harder and harder to sell gas guzzlers.

[LurchGS]

yeah, witness the 'Hybrid SUV' (which, in my test drive, can't get out of it's own way, much less go off-road.)

[peteshimmon]

You will be driving slow but sure vehicles that
give you time to think. And come to think
about it, transit vans have a good 3 square
yards of roof space for photocells!

[randb]

Nuclear power plants for electricity. Use them to make hydrogen to use in cars. Problem solved.

Besides that, oil isn't likely to run out for a very long time. 5 to 10 years? Alarmist at best.

Nuclear "fuel" is only gonna last 50 years or so....The best way would be to figure out a way to use solar energy effectively!!!

[Van Rijn]

Nuclear "fuel" is only gonna last 50 years or so....The best way would be to figure out a way to use solar energy effectively!!!

A bit more than that, and then only assuming just the basic U235 fuel cycle and conventional reserves. Uranium and Thorium are quite common in the world. Even with conventional reserves, U238 and Thorium breeding would bring that up to thousands of years assuming heavy energy use. With unconventional extraction (seawater extraction, for instance) the numbers go up substantially.

With unconventional extraction you would have centuries just with the U235 fuel cycle alone.

[Argos]

Peak oil reached in December, 16th, 2005. (from Slashdot´s the-sky-is-falling dept., lol)

[Eric Vaxxine]

Now I understand why Iran is so keen to get Nuclear power. They obviously see the problem looming too.

[Argos]

I just don´t understand why Americans keep beating the "corn ethanol" drum. It´s cheaper to produce ethanol from sugar cane, and it would be cheaper to adapt sugar-cane varieties to grow in temperate climates [as we (Brazilians) adapted pines to grow in tropical and subtropical zones] than to develop technology to make corn ethanol viable. There´s already a complete set of technologies ready to operate on sugar cane processing.