Need to vent a little.

[Moose]

Nothing too major, just some grumping I'm not especially serious about. I don't especially need advice, just a moment's comiseration at the occasional perverseness of mama universe.

There's a waitress at a local restaurant that I'm finding atypically attractive. Well beyond the typical male lust for the average hottie, I mean. I know almost nothing about her. She seems very pleasant, she has intelligent eyes, and she's very competent at her job, over and above the universally high competence of that restaurant's staff. She has the cutest jawline I can coherently think about, among many other pretty attributes.

My instincts say that she may genuinely find my presence (at least as a customer) pleasant, meaning that I don't think she's just sucking up for tips. I've tried not to be in any way oppressive about it (no ogling, at least not openly), but I'm pretty sure she's picked up that I find her presence welcome.

I'd simply love to find out if I'm her "type", preferably over a nice comfortable courtship.

So of course she's wearing an engagement ring. [scratching phonograph needle]



There are two ways that I can interpret that: a) she's genuinely engaged, b) she wears it on the job to keep from getting hit on. Either way, while she wears that ring, and until and unless she makes the first move, she's totally inaccessible to me. It's a pain to be a generally honorable man sometimes, but there it is and that's that.

And in six weeks, I'm moving out of town for my work. New office, minor promotion and improvement in my contract, looking at buying a house, etc.

Ah well.

They say you can't have it all. I say in mock seriousness: "Just why the heck not?"

So my friends, hoist your glass to Mama Fate: the joke, along with the virtual round, is on me.

[Nicolas]

So you're in love, and you're about to move. You two know each other a little bit. Why don't you simply ask about the ring? I don't know, a really strong line like pointing to the ring and asking "will I be invited"?

[scratching record needle]

Seriously though, you can just (politely) ask her about the ring if she doesn't seem to be too much of a first move type . That way you'll move out without doubts on that front.

And if you don't get a clear answer, you'll have enough to make up for yourself that she's indeed unavailable and your mind will be at rest. It's like meeting somebody cute somewhere but not being in the correct position yourself for a relationship. You try to find any clue that you could translate as "she's not available" and your mind can rest . Lying to oneselve is a wonderful aid in life . In that spirit, if you undertake some action yourself (asking about the ring) you can tell yourself you did "everything possible". Spiritual rest will follow (and nice memories of that woman ).

Try it! I'm not responsible in any way though (see: I'm lying to myself again)

[Moose]

Seriously though, you can just (politely) ask her about the ring if she doesn't seem to be too much of a first move type . That way you'll move out without doubts on that front.

Oh, I have no doubts about the situation whatsoever. So long as she has the ring on her finger, either genuinely or as a ward, she's totally off limits. As little as I know her, I respect her far too much to either jeopardize her existing relationship or to violate her "posted" boundaries that she doesn't want to be hit on, whichever the case may be.

The situation is crystal clear: no dice. Were she to want to "play", it's necessarily her serve.

As for me, I accept this situation, though somewhat grudgingly.

[Nicolas]

So you've got the acceptance part down. For the time you're still there, go to that place as much as you want (whether that be 0 or 30 times ).

Then you'll have done "everything possible" as well. In my experience, the aftermath will feel more like a pleasant "it would have been nice" dream than regrets like "why did it not..". Of course, every situation and person is different, so I don't know how that would turn out. You'll probably never be 100% happy about it, but you can shift the percentage.

By all means I support your respect for the woman and your will to accept the situation. No matter what you do, if you hold on to that you're certainly doing nothing wrong.

[Nicolas]

Go to the restaurant with a small bouquet of flowers, not large or overdone just pretty. Sit them on the table and act distracted. Do not make eye contact or even notice she is there until she comments on the flowers(most women will). If she asks about the flowers(and only if she asks about them) say they were for another woman you went to see but it turns out she was going out with someone else that night so here you are somewhat blue and distracted. " Oh would you like them otherwise in the trash they will go" Do not make a big deal about it because you are only getting rid of unwanted flowers. If she takes them then it is more likely that the ring is only for effect and you are closer to making a friend.

Personally, if I'd "say it with flowers" I would simply give her the flowers because you're moving out and you want to thank her for her service with something else than the regular tip. At least you're not lying and your story looks less thin .

[Dragon Star]

Just remember that if this girl is even remotely as hot as you say then she gets hit on A LOT, every day....so it might be a good idea to try to find her outside of work...ask her when her shift ends one day and talk to her outside of work if you can. Not trying to give advice just putting in my 2 cents.

Good luck.

[The Supreme Canuck]

It's a pain to be a generally honorable man sometimes, but there it is and that's that.

Tell me about it. The last time I was trying for a relationship, I found out she had a boyfriend.

Full stop.

When I let it go, one of my friends asked what had happened. I told him that she has a boyfriend, and that was that. He actually said, "So what?"

Disgusting. Guys like that give us a bad name.

[Nicolas]

"so what" indeed is no argument to try anything with someone currently in a relationship, which is an action that would require really strong arguments. That's why I fully support Moose's standpoint of accepting the situation.

[weatherc]

Seriously though, you can just (politely) ask her about the ring if she doesn't seem to be too much of a first move type . That way you'll move out without doubts on that front.

Just casually asking, "Who's the lucky guy?" while pointing to the ring would be a good way to start. If the two of you are already having regular conversation, then this won't seem out of place at all, and you can really find out what the situation is.

I know you said you didn't necessarily want advice, but there you go anyway.

[tofu]

Follow Nicolas' advice. Just tell her that you just noticed the ring and say "congratulations." It's also safe to throw in something like, "well, I guess I'd better start flirting with a different waitress now." ha ha ha.

If she's wearing the ring as a ward, it's not to ward off people that she likes. And if she likes you at all, she'll tell you the truth. Then you go from there.

further advice, be prepared, if she says that she just wears it on the job, I think that you should ask her out right then and there. If you wait it will be more difficult. If you wait, then you have to bring it up a second time, which will be wierd.

If she says she's really engaged or says no to the date, then you can do all that "respecting her" stuff that you're talking about. But be advised, evolution favors persistance, not respect. Those "so what" guys are the ones that get to pass their genes on, if you know what I mean. Oh sure, I'm a nice guy too, but within the last couple of years I've learned a lot about women, and it isn't pretty. Nice and respectful hasn't worked out well for me.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Funny. It never seems to. But, all the same, I won't sacrifice my principles.

Also, for what it's worth, I agree with tofu's advice. Go for it. If she is engaged, drop it. If not...

[Swift]

Just casually asking, "Who's the lucky guy?" while pointing to the ring would be a good way to start. If the two of you are already having regular conversation, then this won't seem out of place at all, and you can really find out what the situation is.

I was thinking along those lines too. Another would be "when's the big day?" Even if the engagement is for real, maybe you'll get invited to the wedding and meet her twin sister!

[Tobin Dax]

Tell me about it. The last time I was trying for a relationship, I found out she had a boyfriend.

Full stop.

Sounds about like me. I had my eye on a few girls at the beginning of fall semester. The first one I asked had a boyfriend. The second is someone in the department, and another friend scared me out of that (probably more than he meant to) by mentioning what would happen (with the other girls there) if it somehow ended badly. Theres been another girl who's piqued my interest, but I couldn't bring myself to ask her out for some reason. Twice. So I've pretty much given up for the moment.

Back on track:
Moose, she's taken, you're leaving, it sucks, but just keep flirting with her to no end. Nothing wrong with that.
I also agree with the people above who say to ask about the ring ("congrats" or "who's the lucky guy" or the like), if you're chatting with her already. (If not, why aren't you?!!?) If it is a decoy, you may be able to figure this out before you move. I really wouldn't bet on the decoy, though.

[Candy]

I really wouldn't bet on the decoy, though.

Agreed. I've never heard of such a thing for a waitress, heck, any woman for that matter.

[beskeptical]

Just enjoy the fantasies for the moment and realize we mate with the person we are attracted to that we happen to meet up with under the right circumstances. Translation, there are lots of "the only one for me"s out there.

I have wonderful fantasies. But there isn't any room in my closet and I haven't had the time to go out and nurture a relationship in quite a while.

Even so, I know where best to meet Mr Right, somewhere that the people are enjoying the things I like to do. You could meet someone at work, because that's where we are a large part of the time. And you could meet someone in a restaurant or some other random place, but in the case of the restaurant, there's a good chance your imagination of what that person is like will differ from reality.

Which is why I say, enjoy the fantasy but don't create the sadness of a loss of something you never had in the first place and who probably wasn't who you thought they were anyway.

At your new location, make a point to go places where people are that are doing what you enjoy. Or maybe meet someone in a forum that happens to live near you. That requires meeting people and seeing if the physical attraction is there, but I think that's as good as finding the physical attraction then having to find out if you like the rest of the person.

[Moose]

I appreciate all the advice, folks, even though I didn't really want (or need) any.

Beskep, Tobin and Candy are absolutely right. While the decoy scenario is a possibility, it's not a likely one. I say again that I will not put her existing relationship with a known quantity at risk for a what-if. Despite my utter fascination with her jawline, there is no guarantee we have any sort of compatability whatsoever. It's a nice fantasy, but that's all it'll ever be.

I'm actually okay with this.

Sharing this with you guys is simply my way of acknowledging the situation so that I can simply walk away in six weeks and leave it behind me.

So, as I said in the OP, hoist whatever Cold One you hold to at the perverseness of Mama Fate's sense of humor: dang but she's fickle, but her pranks are always the very finest.

[Pleiades]

Agreed. I've never heard of such a thing for a waitress, heck, any woman for that matter.

Well now you have, I have done this when traveling and when I first started my current job. Its pretty much an all male environment and i didn't want any hassles. Some men seem to think that if you're single that you're always available and that isn't the case, or sometimes I just don't want a relationship at a particular point in time and a ring works rather nicely than having to explain it repeatedly.

[randb]

It would be soo much better if we could just be like "Hey I think you are insert_word_here... Do you wanna go out sometime?" Anyways I wish you good luck!!!!

[Moose]

Heh. Well in the "good old days", I could have simply walked up, rapped her on the head with my club, slung her over my shoulder, and hauled her cute hiney off to my cave.

Still, there's an incomparable measure of satisfaction to be had in a successful modern seduction, especially when coupled with a long-term loving relationship.

[farmerjumperdon]

I like the weatherarc/tofu/swift approach. An honest non-threatening question that'll either solidify the pleasantness of your aquaintence, or lead to something else. No harm finding out.

If it's your preference to leave it as it is, then you'll forever with her what you have now. No harm in that either - as long as you don't torture yourself with WHAT IF.

Reminds me of Curly in City Slickers, where he feared perfection might only be sullied by his baser instincts.

[Nicolas]

It would be soo much better if we could just be like "Hey I think you are insert_word_here... Do you wanna go out sometime?" Anyways I wish you good luck!!!!

That would more or less be my approach, I'm not complicated . I have no data on how successful that would be however. I never really had the opportunity and/or guts to try it .

btw if a boy would say such a line the crowd goes "whooooooo how rude". If a girl says that, the crowd goes "whooooooooo how cute". (and a bit of strange "awoooooo hobba-hobba joinkjionk rrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrr blblblblblbblblbl" sounds from some guys in the background, for those who watch the Simpsons ). If you really mean what you say, why not just say it, boy or girl .


That was a sidetrack, not necessarily to be applied on the girl-with-ring casus.

[paulie jay]

Go to the restaurant with a small bouquet of flowers, not large or overdone just pretty. Sit them on the table and act distracted. Do not make eye contact or even notice she is there until she comments on the flowers(most women will). If she asks about the flowers(and only if she asks about them) say they were for another woman you went to see but it turns out she was going out with someone else that night so here you are somewhat blue and distracted. " Oh would you like them otherwise in the trash they will go" Do not make a big deal about it because you are only getting rid of unwanted flowers. If she takes them then it is more likely that the ring is only for effect and you are closer to making a friend.

I don't know about that one - the sympathy route is not (in my opinion) the best one to pick

ust remember that if this girl is even remotely as hot as you say then she gets hit on A LOT, every day....so it might be a good idea to try to find her outside of work...ask her when her shift ends one day and talk to her outside of work if you can. Not trying to give advice just putting in my 2 cents.

Weeeelll... If she is engaged, as soon as you ask "when does your shift end" she has alarm bells ringing.

further advice, be prepared, if she says that she just wears it on the job, I think that you should ask her out right then and there. If you wait it will be more difficult. If you wait, then you have to bring it up a second time, which will be wierd.

That's more like it. You can lead into it easily just by saying "oh, that's a nice ring." If she is engaged, she'll be more than happy to tell you all about her wedding plans.

[Sammy]

Just do it! Ask her outright if she engaged or not, and if not, would she like to go out with you. What have you got to lose? Go for it!

In high school, I was not very assertive.There was a girl I really had the hots for. She was beautiful and intelligent. We both worked on ther school paper and spent a lot of time together alone working on the paper, and talking. We had many mutual interests and similar outlook on the world. But I never had the guts to ask her out -- she seemed way too out of my class.

We graduated and went to different colleges. Years later, when I was in grad school, we ran into each other at a book store, and talked for a while. Being finally more socially developed, I told her of my crush, ands how I was afraid to ask her out and being rejected. Her response: "Gee, I wish you had asked. I liked you too, and I never had a date in all four years of high school." Since we were both engaged, that was the end of the story.

[tofu]

Agreed. I've never heard of such a thing for a waitress, heck, any woman for that matter.

Happens all the time. There was a NY Post story on it, but the page seems to be down. I found it quoted on another board:

http://forums.mzocentral.net/index.p...&mode=threaded

NEXT time you see a pretty girl with a giant diamond engagement ring, consider this: She might be wearing it just to scare you away.
...
For my friends and me, bogus jewels have put an end to the constant harassment that dogs so many young women in New York.

We get hit on everywhere - on the train, the bus and even in taxis. Guys hold doors for us for the mere purpose of getting a view of our backsides.

They even ask us for the time, as they clumsily push their own watches under a sweater sleeve.

I'm convinced we could dress in our ugliest outfits, be in the foulest moods possible, spit on the street a couple of times and start babbling to ourselves out loud, and we would still have to ward off horny trolls.

We've tried dirty looks, haughty sighs and angry tirades to get rid of these predators - but nothing works like the magic ring.

I even knew a girl who did it, and this was back in 1997.

so anyway, I'll say it once again, an engagement ring worn as "dork repellent" is only there to provide an easier way for a girl to say no. If she doesn't want to say no, then she wont (and that also applies to girls who are really engaged and those who are married).

This is just a more modern way for women to be selective, but women have always been selective. There was a time when women acted like ladies, and men treated them like ladies and so they didn't need to wear fake rings. It's hard to imagine, but there was a time when a woman actually wouldn't go out with you unless you had been formally introduced - just think about that for a minute. You couldn't just ask a girl out no matter how attractive or successful you were, you first had to meet one of her friends or her parents, and then you had to make a good impression on them, and then they would give you a recommendation.

[SeanF]

It's hard to imagine, but there was a time when a woman actually wouldn't go out with you unless you had been formally introduced - just think about that for a minute. You couldn't just ask a girl out no matter how attractive or successful you were, you first had to meet one of her friends or her parents, and then you had to make a good impression on them, and then they would give you a recommendation.

Hmmm. I'm thinking I'm going to raise my daughter with that attitude towards boys.

[tofu]

I have wonderful fantasies. But there isn't any room in my closet

If you don't have room in your closet then you could keep a guy chained up in the basement instead. Even the backyard will work. Don't limit yourself to keeping them in the closet.

[Nicolas]

Hmmm. I'm thinking I'm going to raise my daughter with that attitude towards boys.

They'll always have that mohawk picture to use aginst you

[Nicolas]

We get hit on everywhere - on the train, the bus and even in taxis. Guys hold doors for us for the mere purpose of getting a view of our backsides.

They even ask us for the time, as they clumsily push their own watches under a sweater sleeve.

As to #1, I hold doors because it's polite and to receive a modest smile (you know, it's pleasant to please) . I never considered people could think I was trying to get a view of their backsides. Luckily, it never occured to me as if somebody thought I was a bad boy when keeping open the door for them. I do hold doors for male people as well .

As to #2: sheesh. I felt stupid enough trying to talk about something sensible which is a hard thing in a first conversation with total strangers (you have no connections to start a conversation from). If I'd start with something as stupid as asking the time while having a watch, I'd shut up after one sentence to prevent the conversation from going even less smooth .

[tofu]

Keep in mind Nicolas, this is a story about New York. New Yorkers do tend to be very self-centered and very aggressive. It's like a jungle, but every city has its unique character. In San Francisco, a person opening the door for you is likely to give you a nice smile and say something about the universe transcending the quality of your day. In Tokyo, people don't have time to open doors because they are already late and besides, 50 other people need to get through the door RIGHT NOW!! Where I live, people open the door just to be polite.

I would also add that there is a certain passive-aggressiveness in much of what the women in that story say. They want all men to open doors for them, but only men they are attracted to are allowed to look at them or talk to them. That doesn't seem like a very healthy frame of mind to me.

[Nicolas]

I prefer a non-NY approach in that case. Although it does not apply to my current situation, I think I'd be rather direct but polite (asking somebody out after the first conversation when you like them, and there are no indications that they're unavailable). I'm not really for the long flirting before starting a relationship (which often ends up in "but we're friends and I don't want to jeopardise that" ). I like starting a relationship rather soon, and taking the relationship itself easy in the start. Less confusing and more relaxed in my opinion . But as I'm not a too self-confident social type, it's not really easy, certainly when you're in doubt if she's available ("why make a fool out of myself?"). Luckily, there's no need in my current situation . A good thing I did not have an arsenal of flirting techniques, as they would have had way too little training lately .