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Thread: Proven conspiracies

  1. #1
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    Proven conspiracies

    This part of the forum abound with conspiracy theories, now are there any conspiracies that has been proven to actually be true and thus are more then just theories? I found this page on Wikipedia, sure, it is possible that there may be an error there but I get the gut feeling that it's genuine.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_conspiracies

    Do you know any more proven conspiracies? Mere theories and speculation isn't enough here in this thread, just what is considered to be facts. I didn't see the infamius gun powder plot on the above page but it's mentioned on this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_Plot

  2. #2
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    Depends what you mean by "conspiracy". I'm not sure what the legal definition is, but I think any crime carried out by more than one person could be regarded as a conspiracy.

    If you mean "US Government conspiracy", Iran-Contra springs to mind, plus I think there have been some well-established attempts at assassination of Castro and other "enemies".

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW
    Depends what you mean by "conspiracy". I'm not sure what the legal definition is, but I think any crime carried out by more than one person could be regarded as a conspiracy.

    If you mean "US Government conspiracy", Iran-Contra springs to mind, plus I think there have been some well-established attempts at assassination of Castro and other "enemies".
    I had the same thought. Was Lee Harvey Oswald a conspiracy of one to kill JFK? (my question is "can one be a conspiracy" not did LHO kill JFK)

    I noticed that Watergate was not on the list. Nor were the assassination attempts on Reagan and Ford; I thought at least one of those involved more than one person.

    How about the more recent Al-Qaeda attachs, such as the London transit one, the one in Spain, or the several in Asia?
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    I suspect that the sinking of the Maine may have been a conspiracy. I don't believe it was intentionally sunk, but most modern investigations suggest a simple accident.

    I don't think the US government was in any hurry to squelch rumors that it was bombed by the Spanish, even though they also suspected an accident.

    EDITED to fix a glaring spelling error.
    Last edited by twinstead; 2005-Dec-29 at 08:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twinstead
    I suspect that the sinking of the Maine may have been a conspiracy. I don't believe it was sententially sunk, but most modern investigations suggest a simple accident.

    I don't think the US government was in any hurry to squelch rumors that it was bombed by the Spanish, even though they also suspected an accident.
    Well, IF it was an accident (as the captain belived I belive), and the US goverment knew this and STILL used it as an excuse to invade Cuba, then THAT part IS a conspiracy against the Spanish carried out by the US government.

    Well strictly speaking, even petty crimes can sometimes be described as conspiracies but I am aiming for the type of stuff conspiracy theorists would just love to present for the world. The difference from the conspiracy theorists normal claims is that I am after the stuff that is actually true. Things that is fantastic and even happened for real!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift
    I noticed that Watergate was not on the list. Nor were the assassination attempts on Reagan and Ford; I thought at least one of those involved more than one person.
    Actually, there were two separate assassination attempts on Gerald Ford at nearly the same time. Both in California.

    One of them, the one of which you're probably thinking, was, in fact, a conspiracy, albeit not a very coherent one. (Stephen Sondheim summed up the motivation as "so there would be a trial, and Charlie could go on television, and he would save the world!") This conspiracy was between two members of the Manson Family, as well as a few others brought in to buy the guns. The actual trigger woman, Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme, is currently serving a very long sentence indeed. She spends her time trying to save the environment through needlework. (No, really.)
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    If I am not mistaking a conspiracy must be a preplaned crime, consisting of more then five people, though I think sometimes that number can be lower if the conspirators are brought to Court.

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    The only question that comes up for me, is Why weren't there any proven conspiracies between 1964 and 1993?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BertL
    The only question that comes up for me, is Why weren't there any proven conspiracies between 1964 and 1993?
    All the conspiracies that happened within that time frame are part of a conspiracy to hide conspiracies that happened within that timeframe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Worm hunter
    If I am not mistaking a conspiracy must be a preplaned crime, consisting of more then five people, though I think sometimes that number can be lower if the conspirators are brought to Court.
    Two people make a legal conspiracy. In fact, if two people plan a crime and only one commits it, both people are legally liable for the crime.
    _____________________________________________
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    Well, we had a great many examples of conspiracies to misrepresent the financial condition of public corporations in the last few years. Of course, Candy's employer fired its CEO a few years back (in 2001, I think) for telling the truth about the financial condition of the corporaiton...

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    Huh... DRAM price fixing is on the list, but not CD price fixing...

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    When the Rainbow Warrior was sunk by French agents, I believe there was an initial attempt to redirect the blame.

    In the marine fisheries world, there was a conspiracy uncovered by Dan Pauly's group regarding the Chinese falsification of reported fish landings. That one was pretty *hot* a few years back.

    DuPont was recently fined by the EPA for long-time underplaying of some carcinogen in teflon. Actually there are hosts of corporate conspiracies related to environmental and/or health cover-ups. That flick with Julia Roberts was based on one case; I think Travolta did another.

    Most ecologists believe the government buries or ignores most of our reports on environmental damages... one could stretch that to conspiracy-level without much effort. I think we're the most jaded group in the sciences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archman
    When the Rainbow Warrior was sunk by French agents, I believe there was an initial attempt to redirect the blame.
    Well, I'd be amazed if there weren't. But was there an attempt to do so by illegal means?

    Most ecologists believe the government buries or ignores most of our reports on environmental damages...
    It will depend on the particular government, but they certainly attempt to spin just about everything. Much of that will be by perfectly legal means...

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    Quote Originally Posted by montebianco
    Well, I'd be amazed if there weren't. But was there an attempt to do so by illegal means?



    It will depend on the particular government, but they certainly attempt to spin just about everything. Much of that will be by perfectly legal means...
    Blowing up the Rainbow Warrior was in itself a conspiracy, France didn't earn many points in the public opinion by doing that. Now I do think that governmental agents do varioues operations on a more or less day to day basis all over the world but they are usually not caught red handed doing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archman
    snip
    Actually there are hosts of corporate conspiracies related to environmental and/or health cover-ups. That flick with Julia Roberts was based on one case; I think Travolta did another.
    Well, this guy doesn't think so...
    http://www.fumento.com/hudsonbrock.html

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    Is there any fault in his research? Just curious...

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulie jay
    Well, this guy doesn't think so...
    http://www.fumento.com/hudsonbrock.html
    Nice articles! I knew Erin Brockovich was remarkably exaggerated, but not THIS much. Geez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonewulf
    Is there any fault in his research? Just curious...
    Fumento's a VERY GOOD attorney that focuses on science issues. He is superb at ferreting out information, and poking fun of politicians and crummy science. But like all lawyers, he will manipulate information to suit his opinion. The nice thing about Fumento is that he uses science... the annoying thing is that he's not a scientist, and often interprets the science that he reads in rather narrow ways to suit his viewpoint. I found his articles on the hypoxic zone, pesticides, and other stuff I'm trained on to be so skewed. I certainly would not use him as an expert witness, for example.

    Still, his kind are the next best thing to scientists and MD's. But I don't think uncovering conspiracies are his particular "bag". That sort of thing is more along the lines of a field journalist or freelancer. And hippie college students.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by archman
    When the Rainbow Warrior was sunk by French agents, I believe there was an initial attempt to redirect the blame.
    The French tried to deny it intially, but with their agents in custody with our police, there wasn't much they could really do. In the end however, they threatened our European Trade to force us to release their agents to a cushy island prison and then they let them out and returned them to France as heroes. And then they wonder why no one likes them. I think worldwide France is more hated than the US.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tensor
    All the conspiracies that happened within that time frame are part of a conspiracy to hide conspiracies that happened within that timeframe.
    That means I just uncovered a conspiracy! I should edit the page and place the conspiracy that hides all conspiracies in the timeframe '64-'93! And the proof is right there, because it clearly shows no conspiracies!


  22. #22
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    Ladies and gentlemen, I am an officer of the Conspiracy To Hide All Conspiracies To Hide All Conspiricies To Hide Conspiracies During Certain Years Department; there is nothing to see here folks...move along...just continue on with your business.

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    ...these are not the conspiracies you are looking for...

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by archman
    Fumento's a VERY GOOD attorney that focuses on science issues. He is superb at ferreting out information, and poking fun of politicians and crummy science. But like all lawyers, he will manipulate information to suit his opinion. The nice thing about Fumento is that he uses science... the annoying thing is that he's not a scientist, and often interprets the science that he reads in rather narrow ways to suit his viewpoint. I found his articles on the hypoxic zone, pesticides, and other stuff I'm trained on to be so skewed. I certainly would not use him as an expert witness, for example.

    Still, his kind are the next best thing to scientists and MD's. But I don't think uncovering conspiracies are his particular "bag". That sort of thing is more along the lines of a field journalist or freelancer. And hippie college students.
    I've never really known how to take Michael Fumento - I got onto his website through the Australian Skeptics so I figure he must have something going for him I find that I don't necessarily agree with all of his sentiments, but he does usually present a good, confident argument. Oh, and he attracts a LOT of hatemail!

  25. #25
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    It seems appropriate to post the definition....

    con·spir·a·cy (kən-spîr'ə-sē)
    n., pl. -cies.

    1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
    2. A group of conspirators.
    3. Law. An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
    4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design: a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated coastal areas.


    Just off the top of my head, I would add the Reichstag Fire, Enron, the USS Liberty attack and cover-up, the Iraqi "incubator babies" fable, and Prescott Bush and his company (Brown Brothers Harriman) financing Hitler. Those are generally a few well known examples. There are countless other Gov't, private, and corporate conspiracies that have been proven over the last 100 years, some well known and others not.

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    Tell me about the USS Liberty attack turbonium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbonium
    It seems appropriate to post the definition....

    con·spir·a·cy (kən-spîr'ə-sē)
    n., pl. -cies.

    1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
    2. A group of conspirators.
    3. Law. An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
    4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design: a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated coastal areas.


    Just off the top of my head, I would add the Reichstag Fire, Enron, the USS Liberty attack and cover-up, the Iraqi "incubator babies" fable, and Prescott Bush and his company (Brown Brothers Harriman) financing Hitler. Those are generally a few well known examples. There are countless other Gov't, private, and corporate conspiracies that have been proven over the last 100 years, some well known and others not.
    You should have stuck with your WTC CT minutiae nonsense turbonium. Let's start with the USS Liberty attack. Explain this "conspiracy."

    BTW, you get bonus points if you don't have to constantly rely on woo woo CT links to do most of your "talking." Up for that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archer17
    You should have stuck with your WTC CT minutiae nonsense turbonium. Let's start with the USS Liberty attack. Explain this "conspiracy."

    BTW, you get bonus points if you don't have to constantly rely on woo woo CT links to do most of your "talking." Up for that?
    You should get an award here for least substantive post, Archer.

    USS Liberty? Try and peruse this site for starters...
    http://www.ussliberty.org/index.html

    Don't worry about tarnishing your impeccable reputation checking out the site - it's not a dreaded "woo woo CT link". It's a site created by Jim Ennes and Joe Meadors, two survivors of the attack.

    Post back after you read some of the appalling details describing what really occurred that day. I'll await your reply with unbridled anticipation.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbonium
    You should get an award here for least substantive post, Archer.

    USS Liberty? Try and peruse this site for starters...
    http://www.ussliberty.org/index.html

    Don't worry about tarnishing your impeccable reputation checking out the site - it's not a dreaded "woo woo CT link". It's a site created by Jim Ennes and Joe Meadors, two survivors of the attack.

    Post back after you read some of the appalling details describing what really occurred that day. I'll await your reply with unbridled anticipation.
    You can talk all you want about a "substantive" post when you actually make one of your own.

    I'll ask you again: how was the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty a "conspiracy?"

    If you can't do better than a lame two-step and links, don't bother.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archer17
    You can talk all you want about a "substantive" post when you actually make one of your own.

    I'll ask you again: how was the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty a "conspiracy?"

    If you can't do better than a lame two-step and links, don't bother.
    Briefly..
    The USS Liberty was in international waters several miles from the Sinai Peninsula. It was under Israeli recon surveillance for some time, before being deliberately attacked by Israeli fighter jets. How is it known to be an intentional attack? The testimony of all the survivors of the Liberty confirm the ship was clearly flying a large US flag, and even replaced by a larger flag after they were under attack, so as to leave no doubt to the Israeli pilots that they were attacking an allied nation's vessel. And because of the US intelligence officers who read the transcriptions, in real time, of the intercepted communications between the Israeli pilots and their command base. These and other points make it clear that the Israelis knew full well who they were attacking. They even tried to sink the lifeboats the crew were in when the ship was in flames, in an attempt to leave none of the crew alive.

    It's been claimed to this day by Israel that the attack was an accident, despite the overwhelming evidence that it was deliberate. There have been various people within the US Gov't, over the years following the attack, that have supported the Israeli position. But the vast majority of US Gov't officials, among other individuals, state without doubt it was an intentional act. It's very difficult to believe how the survivors, distinguished veterans who served the nation, have yet to be accorded their day of justice.

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