Is Zaphod at your keyboard?
Order of Kilopi
Is Zaphod at your keyboard?
Banned
I'm itching for a response.
I'm in Management.
Established Member
Are you going to ask the questions cansouth didn't?Originally Posted by Candy
I'm itching for a response.
I'm in Management.
Established Member
But are you itching at your face???I'm itching for a response.
Banned
FirstBut are you itching at your face???
Second, OMG, that boy is asking for direction... I'm too tired to go through the pages...
Banned
Compromise
cansouth, can you ask us specific questions regarding satallite emissions?
Banned
Now, be specific... if you are frightened , then email me... I will forward your question to the best candidate.
Established Member
I'd like to ask a question: If this hacker is supposedly so talented that he can make satellites break the laws of physics, how come he can't even deface the website of poor old 'cansouth' in order to cover his tracks? The latter act takes place all the time.
Order of Kilopi
Mid: [DA mode] you do not necessarily need to break the laws of physics to make this theory work, but you need to change the details of this CT of course (like the "thin signals" part). And you do need to seriously stretch the edge of knowledge, certainly those of biomechanics and hypnosis. [/DA mode]
Candy, if we explain mistakes in Cansouth's theory and his response is "no you're wrong", how much effort is he putting in looking for answers other than those supporting his theory?
He might very well be innocent (we have no reason to suppose he's up to something EVIL, other than maybe drawing attention to his theory and seeing how many people he can actually persuade with it), but he does not seem to be very eager to learn those things not fitting his theory.
Cansouth, if you do want to learn why your theory fails in reality, please ask direct questions, and more important support your theory with serious evidence: counts of movements before and after the hack, proof that sats have been hacked, confessions of the hacker, anything but not just your story.
Established Member
Now, be specific... if you are frightened , then email me... I will forward your question to the best candidate.
.... must .... resist... urge.... to.... fake... an email... from... cansouth... to... candy....
Banned
I still wuv you, tofu!
You got me so good with that email from Steven Hawkings way back when.
Bad Post-Doc
Candy, he's not asking questions. If you think he is, perhaps you're reading someone else's posts and thinking they're cansouth's. He has been told where he's wrong (repeatedly), and his response is to tell people obviously more knowledgeable than he that they're wrong. Like his perplexing belief that this is even possible--he's been told it isn't, but he still maintains that it is.
_____________________________________________
Gillian
"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"
"You can't erase icing."
"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"
Banned
If I was mistaken, I won't be from now on. cansouth?
Established Member
That's because this Hacker has a contract with Microsoft.......
Order of Kilopi
Let's turn the story around. What would be needed in order to make this thing work? Hacking a satellite can be done (see Falun Gong) but it is noticed. Let's forget about that part. We hack a satellite and for a while we can play with it.
Now for the signal. How strong must a signal be in order to be of equal strength as nerve signals inside the brain? IIRC an EMG signal is about 5 mV max. I'm not sure whether continuous EMG motor unit commands would result in a normal complex movement like touching the face with the hand. I don't know whether a constant stream of commands through EMG is enough, because the brain had other things in mind for that hand. Of course, through EMG signals the disturbance is internally. That's where I'm not sure what would happen. I think you would still get feedback claiming the hand is being disturbed, resulting in all kinds of akward movements. Take for example the intrinsic (pardon the word) muscle feedback: we thought to leave the arm at rest. EMG commands ask to raise the arm. The muscle spindle senses a stretched muscle, and hence relaxes it again in feedback. But I might be wrong here, because after all it was an internal command that generated the stretch.
But let's assume I'm right here. I think we need to generate the conscious "thought" of wanting to move the hand to the brain as well, so all movements and EMG commands to the motor units are consistent with the actual movement of the arm. How strong are the signals that trigger neurons? How many neurons are involved in thinking about that hand movement? That's how complex the signal triggering the hand movement thought should be.
I could go on about the strength of the signal needed to trigger a neuron, but we've come to a much more interesting point.
We've seen that a massively complex signal is needed to generate the thought of moving a hand in the neuron network of the brain. Well, modern digital technology does not fear a complex signal. But now here's the zillion dollar question: does everyone have the same connections activated in his brains to trigger an arm movement? The answer is NO. Each brain is unique, both due to the unique construction and the chaos inherent in complex neural networks. Normally, the same parts of the brain are triggered to move the hand for every person, but not exaclty the same neurons. WE don't even have the same neurons! That would lead to an infitine number of very complex signals to be sent, without any way to know what that signal should be beforehand.
This is indeed impossible. We don't even need to further investigate what signal strength and hnce what transmitter is needed and whether such a transmitter is available in a satellite.
Administrator
Nice idea Nicolas, but I don't think signal strength is the problem. I do not believe anyone on the planet knows of a means to externally control the brain such that it will force any kind of movement. The closest is the work to give quadriplegics some control of their limbs, or amputtees some control of their artificial limbs. But in those cases, the signals are not applied to the brain, but directly to the muscles or the signals are picked up from the peripheral nerves (in the second case). It would probably be "easier" to actually have the satellite signal directly twitch your arm muscles, rather than have it "tell" your brain to do it. All IMHO.
Order of Kilopi
That's the part where I have doubts what would happen due to your reflexes.
I'm not sure, but I think that if I applied a signal to my muscles without starting that signal in my brain, it would feel very strange. Maybe a bit like being electrocuted.
I have doubts because we are talking about an internal signal and not an external perturbation, but still I think it would be felt as a disturbance.
If one could send signals directly to the muscles without the subjecting feeling this as a disturbance (which wouyld be actively noticed, and be counteracted on top of that), this would make our CT a lot easier. There are much less differences in muscles than in brains.
But I'm getting more and more certain that an external signal being transformed into a nerve signal towards the muscle would feel EXACTLY like being mildly electrocuted, as it works in the same way. Of course, being very mildly electrocuted feels just like moving your limb, with that exception that you feel strange, get counteraction and a withdrawal reflex. And 5mV at muscle nerve level will most probably be noticed by skin nerves.
Does anyone have experimental data or something like that on this? I'm still thinking you need to generate the thought in order to stop the reflexes, you can't directly activate muscles without the body noticing this as a disturbance.
Established Member
I'm pretty sure you'd notice. There is a "trick" we used to play as kids where we would stand in a doorway with our hands at our sides. Then, we would lift our arms out to the side such that the backs of our hands would press against the doorframe. After one minute of pushing outward on the doorframe as hard as we could, we'd step out of the doorway and relax our arms. After a few seconds, our arms would lift outward and upward all by themselves.
I'm not sure of the mechanism. It might be some kind of memory in the muscle tissue. No matter the cause, your arms move without conscious thought. And it does feel wierd.
Established Member
I'd have to agree.
Caution - layman talk ahead ...
I had muscle therapy quite awhile ago that included electro-stimulation (mild electrical impulses applied to the damaged muscle). It was a bit like a very light electric fence ... tick, tick, tick ... made the muscle contract, relax, contract, relax, etc
Believe me when I say you would notice it immediately. The poor old brain freaks right out and tries to stop the muscle leaping around by itself. It's very hard to relax and stop the brain from trying to do something about it.
Conclusion
If this is even remotely possible (it isn't IMO) then it would have to originate with the brain sending the signal.
Established Member
You also have the problem of this sweeping signal needing to focus on a specific part of the brain, stimulating in a way that would result in a seemingly calculated movement and not some random muscle spasms. This would also imply that people in the same area affected by this would be carrying out the same motions at the same time (when the hacked signal begins its sequence)...
That would be very noticable I would think.
Order of Kilopi
you could aim directly at the muscle (ignoring the very possible feedback problem here). But the synchronity issue is a good one.
of course this hacked beam is aimed at one person at a time only
Give us some years and we'll come up with a solid ct
Order of Kilopi
Aim at the muscle with what? How are you going to induce an electrical current in the tissue remotely? From what distance? And, if you can do it, how are you going to manage it without massive side effects - like burning the skin and causing massive EMI (electromagnetic interference)?
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?
The Leif Ericson Cruiser
Administrator
I have some personal, experimental data to support that. I have had mild electric shocks from equipment to my fingers and hand (120V AC) - there is definitely a sensation, either mild pain or a "shocked" sensation (don't know how else to describe it) and I have had muscle contractions in my hand from it. Unless you had nerve damage such that the signal was not transmitted to the brain, you would definitely feel it.
There are also the high school biology experiments were you apply an electric current to the leg muscle of a recented killed frog and make the leg twitch.
Order of Kilopi
Actually, from my personal limited knowledge of the subject. the electricity isn't just moving your arm/leg/whatever, but also all the muscles in that arm or leg. Not only does it move the muscles, but most of them in rather contradictory and useless ways. So you might see a "twitch", but it wouldn't be the exact same sensation if something remotely moved a muscle against your will. Now, if there's contradictory signals; part of you tries to pull the limb/muscle one way, but another signal demands you pull it another way, there will most likely be pain (if not worse) as the muscles contradict each other.
It's that exact reason why electric stunguns are so darn effective. They get all of your muscles moving in useless and tiring fashions at once. once it's done, not only have you been temporarily subdued, but you're also extremely fatigued and sore. Imagine exercising as many of your muscles as you can at once. Usually your body is rather conservative in its muscle use, depending on what you're doing.
Anyways, that's my interpretation of what I've learned on the subject.
Established Member
Don't worry, I just hacked into the satellites and turned the mind control signals off.
Order of Kilopi
You're my hero.
I shall shower you with kisses every day.
Established Member
Further, cansouth claims that the victims of this hacker make these movements without recognizing them. That means that I'm not sitting here and suddenly my arms raises, my finger extends, and starts digging in my ear. I would notice if my arm moved and it wasn't me that was doing it.
So the control ability being exerted must be subliminal. You start scratching your head and you do it more often, but you think you're the one in charge of the scratching.
So it isn't muscle control. It's thought control, likely at a subconcious level.
This whole thing would fit well in an episode of The Tick.
TICK: Hold it right there, you handwaving fiend! Your dreams of dominating the world of gestures have just heard the alarm clock of justice!
MAD MIND CONTROL HACKER: Something wrong Tick? Got something on your chin? (Fiddles with his laptop)
TICK: Where... (Tick starts poking at his chin) Here?
MMCH: Let's play peek-a-boo, shall we, Tick?
TICK: Where'd you go! I can't see through my hands!
Order of Kilopi
Hehehehe. You got a very good point on that one.
Established Member
No, no. This can be done much more simply. A movement of the hand is a conscious or unconcious responce to _stimuli_. Say, an electric field that causes a mild itch. I've had the itches when sufficient static electricity has gathered around me to raise the hairs on my arm.
Order of Kilopi
That's a very good point. But it's not mind control.
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