Do scientists see ghosts?

[R.A.F.]

Yes, one was a chemist with first class honours- satisfied?

Not really...it's still an anecdote, a story without any evidence. As such it proves nothing.

[Gillianren]

I've got an anecdote, too. It comes from the History Channel special about Houdini that I watched the other night.

It seems that Houdini was perfectly aware that huge numbers of the spiritualists of his day were frauds, given that they used tricks he himself used for some of his illusions and escapes. (Funny, that. Actually, there's a very good description of fradulent spiritualists in Strong Poison, by Dorothy L. Sayers.) He also received communications from spiritualists trying to connect him with the spirit of his dead mother. One had a cross on it, an unlikely message from the wife of a rabbi.

So anyway. One of Houdini's targets was spiritualist churches. He did quite a study on them, apparently, though I don't have most of the details handy. Of course, he himself couldn't go to these spiritualist churches, because they'd recognize him in an instant, so he sent a woman who worked for him, and lo and behold, the woman became not merely a member but, as I understand it, ordained by quite a few of those churches.

Under the name of Mrs. F. Raud.

While it is true that a seance is held every year on the day of Houdini's death in an attempt to contact him, it is done so precisely because he did not believe it was possible to return from the dead. His wife was under very strict instructions not to allow any "spiritualist" to conduct the seance. She was to conduct it herself. As a further failsafe, ten words from a letter to Houdini by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle were chosen as the proof that it really was the spirit of Houdini. No seance has ever been successful.

[pghnative]

Moonrock
Just curious, but why don't you use your powers to predict lottery numbers? Or maybe you could contact the ghost of Jimmy Hoffa --- find out where his body is buried, that'd be pretty cool.

Or maybe contact Amelia Earhardt -- you'd be pretty famous if you could definitively find her plane. If that doesn't work, there's always D.B. Cooper --- find out if he survived the parachute landing, and where the money is.

You see, what I don't understand is why spiritualists don't use their powers for something useful. They're always "revealing" that person A's father was named Pete, that he always loved his wife and that he's sorry. They never reveal the murderer's name, or where a robber hid the money, or whether anyone was shooting from the grassy knoll.

edited to correct spelling

[SolusLupus]

Amelia Earhart is dancing the hula hula with Cthulhu and Godzilla. In the Bermuda Triangle.

Erm, or so Tom Smith tells me.

But y'see, I can come up with a perfectly "logical" reason that they don't predict lottery numbers: They hear what the ghosts want to tell them, and they can't just turn their ability "on" or "off" as they please. It's the perfect greased pig explanation.

[SeanF]

No seance has ever been successful.

Of course not. I certainly hope, that if I claimed something was impossible, you wouldn't accept my failure to do it as any sort of evidence that I was right.

[paulie jay]

Moonrock
Just curious, but why don't you use your powers to predict lottery numbers?

Yeah, I've often wondered this - why no medium will ever come out with the numbers to next week's Lotto draw - just for yuks. The standard answer is that psychics are so pure of heart that they refuse to use their gifts in this way for financial profit. Which usually leads me to ask why they charge people for consultations...

[Candy]

Yeah, I've often wondered this - why no medium will ever come out with the numbers to next week's Lotto draw - just for yuks. The standard answer is that psychics are so pure of heart that they refuse to use their gifts in this way for financial profit. Which usually leads me to ask why they charge people for consultations...

That's a great post!

[William_Thompson]

No seance has ever been successful.

Pro-spirtualists would put an absurd "...yet" at the end of that last sentance.

Just as the pro-ETI cult would say: (contrary to Fermi's Observation) "No contact has every been made...YET"

[Candy]

Add this, Gillianren has been wrong with her knowledge. No one ever questions her direction, though, which confuses me.
I STEP UP AND CHALLENGE GILLIANREN TO HER POSTS (PLEASE PROVIDE LINKS) when answering questions.

[snarkophilus]

Yeah, I've often wondered this - why no medium will ever come out with the numbers to next week's Lotto draw - just for yuks. The standard answer is that psychics are so pure of heart that they refuse to use their gifts in this way for financial profit. Which usually leads me to ask why they charge people for consultations...

There's a Roald Dahl book about this, sort of. The main character manages to learn to see through cards, so he can always win at blackjack (or poker or whatever he played... I haven't read the book in fifteen years or so). But when he tries to use his power for his own personal gain, he's completely impotent. He can't see the cards. He only gets the power back once he determines that he'll only use his knowledge for good.

It's as likely an explanation as any, I suppose.

[HenrikOlsen]

Add this, Gillianren has been wrong with her knowledge. No one ever questions her direction, though, which confuses me.
I STEP UP AND CHALLENGE GILLIANREN TO HER POSTS (PLEASE PROVIDE LINKS) when answering questions.

Unfortunately, you're requesting a proof for a negative which is impossible.
At least if I figured out which post you're referring to.

[Gillianren]

Add this, Gillianren has been wrong with her knowledge. No one ever questions her direction, though, which confuses me.
I STEP UP AND CHALLENGE GILLIANREN TO HER POSTS (PLEASE PROVIDE LINKS) when answering questions.

I stated very clearly in that post that the information came from a History Channel special. (It had Teller on it in silhouette, on account of he was talking.) What's more, very little of my knowledge comes from the internet; it comes from (primarily) books. I can give you book titles, but you'd have to do a wee bit more work in order to find the information than just click on something.

[Candy]

Unfortunately, you're requesting a proof for a negative which is impossible.
At least if I figured out which post you're referring to.

I've only noticed this recently. I first noticed it in the BAUT Frapp Thread many moons ago. I've been watching since then, and I'm quite amazed at my discoveries. That's why I am speaking up. I know, I will get the black banner for this action.

[Candy]

I stated very clearly in that post that the information came from a History Channel special. (It had Teller on it in silhouette, on account of he was talking.) What's more, very little of my knowledge comes from the internet; it comes from (primarily) books. I can give you book titles, but you'd have to do a wee bit more work in order to find the information than just click on something.

Case in point. You are rattling off information from your head without checking facts.

[Candy]

I've been watching you via BAUT. "I follow those I eventually will lead". Sorry, I had to use my old slogan.

[SolusLupus]

Pro-spirtualists would put an absurd "...yet" at the end of that last sentance.

Just as the pro-ETI cult would say: (contrary to Fermi's Observation) "No contact has every been made...YET"

Wow, nice way of sneaking that in there. This thread is not about ETI. This thread is not about SETI. This thread is not about contact with ETI. This thread has nothing to do with ETI at all. It has to with very terrestrial, but very unnatural, phenomena that supposedly exists.

Please do not try to derail a thread to push an agenda.

[Candy]

It's derailed!

[Candy]

Unsubscribing! If you wish to talk about this subject, please send me a PM.

[Gillianren]

Case in point. You are rattling off information from your head without checking facts.

She says she's gone, but I'd like to know how, exactly, she knew I wasn't checking facts. Because I don't have a website to link to? That's true. However, I'm not sure why I'd need one to state what I saw on TV two days ago.

[The Bad Astronomer]

Just as the pro-ETI cult would say: (contrary to Fermi's Observation) "No contact has every been made...YET"

Please do not hijack this thread.

Also folks, I can see this may become personal quickly. Please calm down.

[paulie jay]

There's a Roald Dahl book about this, sort of. The main character manages to learn to see through cards, so he can always win at blackjack (or poker or whatever he played... I haven't read the book in fifteen years or so). But when he tries to use his power for his own personal gain, he's completely impotent. He can't see the cards. He only gets the power back once he determines that he'll only use his knowledge for good.

It's as likely an explanation as any, I suppose.

A good idea, but still doesn't explain why their powers work when they charge a fee for consultations though

[Gillianren]

Of course not. I certainly hope, that if I claimed something was impossible, you wouldn't accept my failure to do it as any sort of evidence that I was right.

I think there has been confusion about what I meant. No seance to contact Houdini, the person about whom I was talking, has met the tests that Houdini himself established for them before death.

[LurchGS]

Amelia Earhart is dancing the hula hula with Cthulhu and Godzilla. In the Bermuda Triangle.

Erm, or so Tom Smith tells me.

Not hijacking the thread - just borrowing it for a quick trip to Correctionland

Earhart wasn't lost in the triangle - but somewhere over the pacific. (if she DID end up in the triangle, her piloting skills were worse than usual)


We now return you to your regularly scheduled slugfes... er,... thread

[SolusLupus]

Not hijacking the thread - just borrowing it for a quick trip to Correctionland

Earhart wasn't lost in the triangle - but somewhere over the pacific. (if she DID end up in the triangle, her piloting skills were worse than usual)


We now return you to your regularly scheduled slugfes... er,... thread

I never said she did. She just ended up in the Bermuda Triangle. I don't know how. Maybe she took a boat there. 'sides, it makes the song "Bermuda Triangle" by Tom Smith that much funnier.

[LurchGS]

I never said she did. She just ended up in the Bermuda Triangle. I don't know how. Maybe she took a boat there. 'sides, it makes the song "Bermuda Triangle" by Tom Smith that much funnier.

ok.. I'll take your word for it (she'd be the only missing person who traveled TO the triangle after vanishing).

Though.. come to think of it.. given her adequate skills as a pilot, I suppose it IS possible she got lost and ended up there anyway. Would explain why nobody's found any sign of her in all those empty, barren, featureless miles of the Pacific ocean

[Hugh Jass]

I wonder if that's where all my socks and sunglasses have ended up?

[LurchGS]

nope - they're at my house.

[whisper] have you ever considered odor-eaters? [/whipser]

[Maksutov]

I never said she did. She just ended up in the Bermuda Triangle. I don't know how. Maybe she took a boat there. 'sides, it makes the song "Bermuda Triangle" by Tom Smith that much funnier.

It's called "poetic license", or as with the case of some lyricists, "poetic license to kill."

Back to the main schlagfest, uh, topic.

Of course scientists see ghosts. Scientists see UFOs. Scientists see holy images on taco shells.

The difference is the scientist doesn't stop at that point and say "I can't figure this out, so therefore it's supernatural." The scientist doesn't say, "Well this is new to me so I'll jump to a fully-unsupported conclusion based on incomplete data, shaky assumptions, and my gut instincts." The scientist definitely doesn't say, "This is something science will never figure out."

Instead the scientist dives into the hard of work of figuring out exactly what the currently unexplained phenomenon is. With the taco shell, ghosts, and UFOs, the process is pretty quick and for the most part, the work has already been done. With such things as unified forces, dark matter and energy, and the origin(s) of the Universe, it takes considerably more time and work, and lots of innovation.

[Moonrock]

Not really...it's still an anecdote, a story without any evidence. As such it proves nothing.

Hmmm, couldnt we say that about anything that we didnt see with our own eyes? I dont know, theres no pleasing some people.

While it is true that a seance is held every year on the day of Houdini's death in an attempt to contact him, it is done so precisely because he did not believe it was possible to return from the dead. His wife was under very strict instructions not to allow any "spiritualist" to conduct the seance. She was to conduct it herself. As a further failsafe, ten words from a letter to Houdini by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle were chosen as the proof that it really was the spirit of Houdini. No seance has ever been successful.

If a spiritualist or medium was not allowed to run the séance then how do you suggest that the message could be received? I could also make such claims and say that I want a scientific investigation into the Apollo hoax, as long as no scientists are involved. Doh!

Moonrock
Just curious, but why don't you use your powers to predict lottery numbers? Or maybe you could contact the ghost of Jimmy Hoffa --- find out where his body is buried, that'd be pretty cool.

Or maybe contact Amelia Earhardt -- you'd be pretty famous if you could definitively find her plane. If that doesn't work, there's always D.B. Cooper --- find out if he survived the parachute landing, and where the money is.

You see, what I don't understand is why spiritualists don't use their powers for something useful. They're always "revealing" that person A's father was named Pete, that he always loved his wife and that he's sorry. They never reveal the murderer's name, or where a robber hid the money, or whether anyone was shooting from the grassy knoll.

edited to correct spelling

You misunderstand the ability of mediumship. A medium CANNOT ask for specific people to make contact. It’s the spirit who decides to contact the medium, not the other way around. And the gift of mediumship is given as a gift, it is not there to make money – money has no meaning to the spirit world so why should they give lottery numbers? And before you come back and say ‘if mediumship isn’t to make money, why are so many doing it on the TV’, my answer is that those people are not what I class as a true medium.

My brother who attends sprititualist church twice a week related to me how his teacher a couple of weeks ago even told a family that she could smell the aftershave of their dead son and named the brand. Hardly a case of cold reading there? The big problem you see is that your all 'assuming' that all mediums work like the ones you see on TV. They do not.

If you want real proof go down your local spiritualist church, in fact I challenge anyone here to do so. You will soon change your narrowmindedness.

For all your information, a proper medium DOES NOT charge for readings.

And finally, I can link to an article that I tried to post here last week which shows that a well qualified scientist carried out scientific study into this phenomenon with many scientists as witnesses. You may be shocked by the results.

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/bo...r/chapter5.htm

[Kristophe]

For all your information, a proper medium DOES NOT charge for readings.

Why not?