Theories are falsified by observations (experiments). A theory does not falsify another theory, since they can be both wrong.
Theories are falsified by observations (experiments). A theory does not falsify another theory, since they can be both wrong.
I didn't realise this was in doubt, as I have heard it so many times. This having been said, I cannot find that many online references just now.Originally Posted by Disinfo Agent
http://humankindadvancing.humanists.net/02/02-03.html
From: Facing Reality, (by Eccles) 1970, P. 107.
"Nobel Laureate Sir John Eccles, another person knighted for his outstanding contribution to science -- in his case to neuroscience -- and a friend of Karl Popper, describes the insight that falsification is the normal fate of all hypotheses and the consequent resolution to expect and accept criticism as a liberating experience.
"The erroneous belief that science eventually leads to the certainty of a definitive explanation carries with it the implication that it is a grave scientific misdemeanour to have published some hypothesis that eventually is falsified. As a consequence scientists have often been loath to admit the falsification of such a hypothesis, and their lives may be wasted in defending the no longer defensible. Whereas, according to Popper, falsification in whole or in part is the anticipated fate of all hypotheses, and we should even rejoice in the falsification of a hypothesis that we have cherished as a brain-child. One is thereby relieved from fears and remorse, and science becomes an exhilarating adventure where imagination and vision lead to conceptual developments transcending the generality and range of the experimental evidence."
As regards the Problem of Induction, Popper did not invent this. He recognised it, as did many other philosophers, and conceived Fal' in an attempt to overcome it. (Fal is widely recognised for it's efficacy in this respect.) Discussions of the problem, therefore, do not necessarily mention Popper or his method, as the problem obvisously preceded the proposed solution.
I would rather you found Popper's own words.
Even so, I note that your source speaks of 'falsification in whole or in part.' That seems different from what you had been saying, perhaps significantly so.
You still haven't proven your point Sparky. The fact that it is the normal fate does not mean it is the required fate. The fact that it is the anticipated fate does not mean it is the necessary fate. It is normal for people to have 5 fingers, but it is by no means a requirement. It would be reasonable for future parents to expect their child to be born with 5 fingers, but that does not mean it is a requirement. Just because it is what is normal, what happens most of the time, does not mean it will happen all of the time. In fact, that is the very point Popper was trying to make. No matter how many times you do something, you will never know if it may turn out differently the next time. No matter how many times we try to falsify a theory and eventually succeed, we will never know if the next theory we try to falsify will never be falsified.
Yes, it is possible, but according to the Fal method, it is assumed of necessity. Granted, I need to do some more work to support my case.Originally Posted by Gillianren
Until a theory is falsified, it is to all practical purposes considered 'right' in so far as it is a workable model.Originally Posted by Gillianren
Theories are steps on a ladder towards a greater understanding of life, the universe, and everything.
Yes. At last.Originally Posted by TheBlackCat
The point is that, according to the method, corroboration has less value than testability. And, as we devise more tests, the chances of falsifying it...Originally Posted by TheBlackCat
This is a tricky area. A new theory can extend an old theory without falsifying it, perhaps. Also, some theories are not so much theories as collections of theories. The Big Bang, for example, is probably better regarded as a concept, or a collection of theories.Originally Posted by Monique
If, for example, the CMB turns out to have a different source, this would not necessarily deal a death knell to the BBT, would it?
My understanding is that Newtonian physics were accomodated rather than scrapped? Or were some aspects shown to be false?
THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG. Please don't make it sound like I just figured this out, everybody on this topic has been saying this over and over and over again.Originally Posted by Sparky56
...drop. The more succesful tests we do on something, the less likely the next test will be to falsify it. Generally, a hypothesis gets to a certain point where it is unlikely enough that it will be falsified by future tests that we can give it tentative approval. This is what we call a "theory". It is not proven, but it's chance of being correct is high enough that it is safe to tentatively make use of it for predicting behavior of a system.Originally Posted by Sparky56
Infinite value/Absolute truth/truth/final truth/proven. Same difference. I will elaborate on this when I tackle the issue from the 'Problem of Induction' angle.Originally Posted by Grey
Hmmm. I didn't want to get into metaphysics, but effectively, yes. The inductive method is rational, but illogical. Falsifiabilty might be seen as irrational, but it is logically valid. I will get back to you on this.Originally Posted by Grey
Well, I hate to say it, but yes and no.Originally Posted by Grey
For all practical purposes, a theory is not falsified until is is found to be false.
However, a logical equivalent is not a logical consequce. A sound theory is a reasonable working model, even if the Fal method implies that it is destined to be falsified. Remember, as Popper observed -- "That a theory is false does not mean it cannot have verisimilitude."
As I have said, I will attempt to address the issue from a different angle, that is, from the pespective of the problem of induction.
No, you're good there. I happen to believe myself that, at least, any individual's comprehension is necessarily finite; no human mind is capable of holding all knowledge.Originally Posted by Sparky56
True, but irrelevant to my point, really. My point is, you did in fact say that all theories have, essentially, a shelf life. As in, they will all, according to you, eventually be proven wrong. Whereas what we keep trying to explain, in more ways than I'd previously realized possible, is that just because something can be proven wrong doesn't mean it will be proven wrong. According to what you seem to be saying, we might as well just give up now on trying to understand anything, because we're just wrong and we always will be. What we're saying is that we might've gotten some explanations right, but we can never 100% know for sure, because the next test might prove us wrong.Until a theory is falsified, it is to all practical purposes considered 'right' in so far as it is a workable model.
Well, yes again, and again, kind of irrelevant to what we've been trying to explain to you. After all, if we use your premise that no theory will ever be right, and all will eventually be proven wrong, we are not increasing our understanding of the universe, because we're still wrong. It's just a new and different wrong than we were before.Theories are steps on a ladder towards a greater understanding of life, the universe, and everything.
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Gillian
"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"
"You can't erase icing."
"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"
On the face of it this makes sense, but I have reservations in line with the man himself.Originally Posted by TheBlackCat
http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/falsification.html
From Karl Popper:
1. It is easy to obtain confirmations, or verifications, for nearly every theory - if we look for confirmations.
2. Confirmations should count only if they are the result of risky predictions; that is to say, if, unenlightened by the theory in question, we should have expected an event which was incompatible with the theory - an event which would have refuted the theory.
6. Confirming evidence should not count except when it is the result of a genuine test of the theory; and this means that it can be presented as a serious but unsuccessful attempt to falsify the theory. (I now speak in such cases of "corroborating evidence.")
I am arguing that this 'shelf-life' is a natural consequence of the method, but this is disputed by some.Originally Posted by Gillianren
Effectively, yes, at least according to the method.Originally Posted by Gillianren
OK. I will attempt to counter this from a different angle. Later.Originally Posted by Gillianren
Not quite. As Popper said: "We should celebrate the falsification of a theory as, ultimately, this represents progress." New theories are improvements on the old, of course.Originally Posted by Gillianren
No, it's a better wrong, that is more right and less wrong than before. Progress.Originally Posted by Gillianren
"It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood." Karl Popper
"Science may be described as the art of systematic over-simplification." Karl Popper
Again, nothing you quote supports your conclusion. When will you stop preaching and directly answer the question: how does a theory's falsifiability logically entail its falsehood?Originally Posted by Sparky56
This is not my conclusion! It is a gross oversimplification.Originally Posted by worzel
Yes it is (the logical consequence) of your conclusion, rememberOriginally Posted by Sparky56
You have admitted as much here:Originally Posted by worzel
If every falsifiable theory is only valid for a finte time then it will be falsified within a finte time and was therefore invalid all along. So your claim that every falsifiable theory is only valid for a finte time is equivalent to the statement that a theory's falsifiability implies its falsehood. Please now explain how a theory's falsifiability implies its falsehood.Originally Posted by Sparky56
First: Duane, it's "hypotheses."
Er, it's argued by all of us. In fact, I'm pretty convinced now that Popper would be arguing with you on this one.Originally Posted by Sparky56
Okay, but if they're all wrong, where's the improvement?Not quite. As Popper said: "We should celebrate the falsification of a theory as, ultimately, this represents progress." New theories are improvements on the old, of course.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to call this a contradiction, here. You see, in order for this to be true, some part of it must be right. If, as you say, they're all eventually proven wrong, that would mean that no part of them could be right. Since theories are constantly refined, it is entirely possible that one part is right and one wrong, and we change the wrong part to make it more right. This is like the computing-pi-using-polygons method, where we get closer and closer without ever quite getting it exactly right--but some part (to quite a lot of decimal places, now) is right. Despite what you think.No, it's a better wrong, that is more right and less wrong than before. Progress.
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Gillian
"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"
"You can't erase icing."
"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"
Sorry Gillianren, but I disagree with you on this one. It may well be that we never get a theory exactly right. But theories that are technically not correct can still be very useful. In one sense, Newton's theory of gravity is wrong, in another sense it is a first order approximation to relativity. Maybe relativity will turn out to be a first order approximation to another theory that matches predictions even closer (that assumes we first find relativity inaccurate in some circumstances). Maybe not. Either way, Newton's theory is still useful, and Einstein's will be whether it turns out to be falsified or not. Remember that Newton's theory can only be seen to be false with extremely accurate measurements - that it fails there where relativity doesn't, doesn't mean it suddenly loses it predictive power.
The only disagreement I have with Sparky56 in this is his implicit claim that all falsifiable theories are necessarily false.
Gillianren is absolutely spot on in so far as she recognises the implications of the methodology. Cool.
However, I think that Gillianren disagrees about the consequences, and feels that the method is negative. To an extent I agree, as this is a common criticism of Fal. It does seem very negative, it has to be said. But there are reasons for this 'negativity'.
You say you disagree, and then in the same sentence you seem to agree! This is just nitpicking, of course, so I will move onto the next point.Originally Posted by worzel
Yes, exactly. And this is very important. It is essential to grasp it. As Popper observed: "That a theory is false does not mean it cannot have verisimilitude."Originally Posted by worzel
Interesting. Despite how I may have put it earlier, I would argue that a new theory falsifies a preceding theory by virtue of the fact that it can better account for observations. The fact that the older theory lacked the same accuracy clearly indicates that it was lacking in some important respect.Originally Posted by worzel
Granted the old theory may still be useful in many ways, but the new theory has revealed its vulnerabilities. Popper talked in terms of theories being stepping stones. They progress, most often, on the back of one another. I think your paragraph above is an excellent illustration of this.
These are not criticisms of Newtonian mechanics. They marked great progress, and as Popper said, perhaps we 'should celebrate the falsification of a theory' for this very reason.
As I have said, I think this is an oversimplification, but yes, it hints at the big issue. As Grey said, it seems I am suggesting some form of quantum reality of theories and, well, yes, the method does get quasi-metaphysical.Originally Posted by worzel
As I said ealier.
1. A theory is not falsified for all practical purposes until it is found to be false.
2. However, this having been said, the method presumes that no theory can ever represent the final truth. By implication, therefore, it contains some degree of error, because the method presumes that a better theory will always come along.
This is a logical consequence of: "No theory can ever be conclusively verified, it can only be concusively falsified."
If we examine the Problem of Induction, I think this will become more clear.
Just an aside question: this means that Popper's theory is also wrong?Originally Posted by Sparky56
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Life is too short to waste on philosophy!
I think that Popper and Kuhn are two of the worst things to happen to science since the Inquisition, judging from all the balloon-juice spilled over the last four pages of this thread.
One last comment: it is a long, long way from "may possibly" to "will be". Always has been, always will be.
Well she, along with everyone else who's voiced an opinion, catagorically disagreed with your conclusion that a falsifiable theory is, by implication, false.Originally Posted by Sparky56
That was worse than just nitpicking, you are completely missing the point. Gillianren said "Okay, but if they're all wrong, where's the improvement?" and went on to argue that at least some part of a theory must be right for us to have improvement. I was disagreeing by saying that although each theory along the way may technically be incorrect in every regard, that does not mean that there is no improvement. Newton's theory is never exactly right about any prediction, is it.You say you disagree, and then in the same sentence you seem to agree! This is just nitpicking, of course, so I will move onto the next point.Originally Posted by worzel
Who on earth are you talking to? You're certainly not responding the post of mine that you quoted.Yes, exactly. And this is very important. It is essential to grasp it. As Popper observed: "That a theory is false does not mean it cannot have verisimilitude."
Interesting. Despite how I may have put it earlier, I would argue that a new theory falsifies a preceding theory by virtue of the fact that it can better account for observations. The fact that the older theory lacked the same accuracy clearly indicates that it was lacking in some important respect.
Granted the old theory may still be useful in many ways, but the new theory has revealed its vulnerabilities. Popper talked in terms of theories being stepping stones. They progress, most often, on the back of one another. I think your paragraph above is an excellent illustration of this.
These are not criticisms of Newtonian mechanics. They marked great progress, and as Popper said, perhaps we 'should celebrate the falsification of a theory' for this very reason.
If you remember,I asked you something similar (although badly worded) back hereAs I have said, I think this is an oversimplification, but yes, it hints at the big issue. As Grey said, it seems I am suggesting some form of quantum reality of theories and, well, yes, the method does get quasi-metaphysical.Originally Posted by worzel
Of course, you never answered that quesion, you just quoted Popper, did a little dance, and repeated your incorrect conclusion.Originally Posted by worzel
The method assumes that no theory can ever represent the final truth because we can never know that a theory does - not because it is a logical necessity that they can't.As I said ealier.
1. A theory is not falsified for all practical purposes until it is found to be false.
2. However, this having been said, the method presumes that no theory can ever represent the final truth. By implication, therefore, it contains some degree of error, because the method presumes that a better theory will always come along.
You accuse me, yet again, of over-simplifying your argument, and then straight away you make exactly the same simple logical error. And ye again you fail to answer the question. How does the falsifiability of a theory logically imply that the theory is actually false? Please just answer that one question or withdraw your claim that a logical consequence of "No theory can ever be conclusivel verified" is that every theory is false.This is a logical consequence of: "No theory can ever be conclusively verified, it can only be concusively falsified."
You might as well say that Jesus was one of the worst thing to happen to mankind, judging from what some of his followers have done.Originally Posted by Celestial Mechanic
Don't judge Popper and Kuhn by people who claim to speak on their behalf, but clearly don't even understand what Popper and Kuhn wrote.
Ah, I see the problem. I would not consider most of those terms to be synonymous. In particular, infinite value seems to imply some measure of great worth that the others do not (although perhaps "absolute truth" and "final truth" have similar connotations). And in particular, I'd consider there to be a huge difference between whether a claim is true and whether it can be or has been proven. Indeed, Gödel's work was specifically showing that there are true statements of mathematics that cannot be proven using formal logic.Originally Posted by Sparky56
Originally Posted by Grey
Let's not talk about for practical purposes, here. We're discussing the nature of reality, after all, which is hardly practical.Originally Posted by Sparky56
Of course a theory is not falsified until it is found to be false. But is a theory false if the experiment which contradicts it will not be done until next week?
Say I make a statement. Most people would agree with me that such a statement is either true or false. We may not know which it is, but our lack of knowledge does not change the fact that it is one or the other. If we find evidence that it is one or the other, we discover whether it was true or false, but we presume it was true or false all along, and our discovery of which is was did not suddenly change its truth or falsehood.
A theory of how nature works is nothing more than such a statement, except for a slight twist. A theory is a statement that always implicitly includes the claim "things always work this way". That's why proving such a statement true isn't possible, since the statement is a claim for all future cases as well, and we'll never run out of possible cases to test. But most would presume that it's still a statement, it is still either true or false. If we find evidence that it is false, we consider it to have been false (though perhaps a good approximation) all along, and if we have not yet proven it false, we consider that it reamins either true or false, we just don't know which.
You're claiming the opposite. That a theory's trueness depends on our knowledge thereof. That since we don't know whether it's true or false, it is neither, until we find out (and of course we can only find out conclusively if it is false; remember, nobody is arguing the reverse here, so you needn't keep stressing it).
Now, since I've worked with quantum theory, I know that it's possible to make a statement which is neither true nor false, but which suddenly becomes true or false only once we check. You might think that the laws of nature are of a similar form, ever changing and random. Quantum mechanics itself seems to have fixed rules that can explain this behavior of attributes that don't exist until measured, but you might feel that the very laws themselves might be subject to this kind of indeterminacy. Or you might instead think that the laws of nature or so complex that they can never be written in any closed form. For example, as we probed ever further, we discovered that things are made of atoms, and then that the atoms are made of smaller particles, and then that some of those particles are made of still smaller particles; you might think that this progression will never end, and that there will always be a level on a smaller scale to be discovered.
In either of those cases, it would indeed be impossible to ever have a true theory (remember, only in the sense that it is true, which is distinct from whether we've proven it of whether we know it to be true; even if you firmly believe these are linked, surely you can at least acknowledge them as differing concepts so that we can have a meaningful conversation about the possibilities), in the former case because there's no such thing as truth apart from what can be proven, and in the latter case because truth is infinitely complex. There may be other philosophical views which also preclude the existence of truth. However, I don't think that such views necessarily follow directly from Popper's ideas about falsification. You're free to hold such views, of course, but I think it's a mistake to attribute them to Popper.
And an excellent go it was! Nicely done.Originally Posted by Gillianren
I don't think anyone here feels that the method is negative, but your interpretation of it. You seem to insist that "Falsification is the anticipated fate of all genuinely scientific theories" logically leads to the conclusion that all theories must be proven false... that they therefore have a finite shelf life. Can you provide a quote of Popper's that actually says this? If not, then it remains your interpretation of what he did say.Originally Posted by Sparky56
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How right you are! Kuhn's reputation is especially curious.Originally Posted by Celestial Mechanic
[Added: Oops. If you don't want to sign up for a free account to read that linked article, try this one.]
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
No. Fal' is a methodology, not a theory.Originally Posted by Baloo
"Falsification is the anticipated fate of all scientific theories." Karl PopperOriginally Posted by Jim
Uh oh. Maybe I'm wrong . . . . (But thanks for using the right pronoun, anyway.)Originally Posted by Sparky56
Um, no. I disagree with your interpretation of the consequences. I feel that your method is, inevitably, wrong.However, I think that Gillianren disagrees about the consequences, and feels that the method is negative. To an extent I agree, as this is a common criticism of Fal. It does seem very negative, it has to be said. But there are reasons for this 'negativity'.
Let's put this in an even simpler way, shall we?
According to Merriam-Webster:
Anticipate: 1 : to give advance thought, discussion, or treatment to
2 : to meet (an obligation) before a due date
3 : to foresee and deal with in advance : FORESTALL
4 : to use or expend in advance of actual possession
5 : to act before (another) often so as to check or counter
6 : to look forward to as certain : EXPECT
Inevitable: : incapable of being avoided or evaded
In other words (and other, and other, and other!): something may be anticipated without being inevitable!
Now, we are using Defintion 6 of "anticipate" here, but remember, please, that many people have looked forward to things as certain and had that thing not come to pass. Just ask any Doomsday cult. World's still here, isn't it? And yet Nancy Leider anticipated its end in, what, 2003?
(And thanks, Jim; we English majors must fight the good fight of aiding comprehension. And I stand corrected, Worzel.)
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Gillian
"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"
"You can't erase icing."
"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"
Sorry, you've said that already but I didn't made the difference between 'methodology' and 'theory'. Actually I still don't (or it seems that I'm using in a different way the word 'method').Originally Posted by Sparky56
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Could you provide a short explanation or a link in order to clarify this difference for a novice? Thanks.
Which article are you referring to, at that second link?Originally Posted by Cougar