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Thread: I Will Prove The Moon Landings Were Hoaxed

  1. #1381
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    Thanks, Gillian, but Count Zero caught it first.

    Also, it's the city so NICE they named it twice.

  2. #1382
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGN Fuel
    In the second (the "Boy, is this fun" clip), he talks about heading 'home' to the LM, which is visible in the distance. At first glance, the LM appears relatively close, but the footage shows him going on and on and on (and on), past a perfectly motionless flag, until he finally reaches the LM some considerable time later. Watching that sequence is quite unsettling - the brain is fooled as to the distance, as the usual 'softening' of edges caused by distance here on Earth is completely absent in the vacuum of the moon.
    Another along this line is, again from Apollo 16, the "House Rock" footage towards the end of EVA 3. They parked the rover what looked like 50m from a large boulder and started towards it. Two minutes later they are still walking, arriving about 2 minutes 15secs after leaving the Rover. The boulder was in fact about 100-200m away and was the size of a house, hence the name 'house rock'.

    edited to fix distances. :P

  3. #1383
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomWolf
    ...Two minutes later they are still walking, arriving about 2 minutes 15secs after leaving the Rover. The boulder was in fact about 100-200m away and was the size of a house, hence the name 'house rock'...
    Not quite. It takes about 2 minutes 15 seconds in edited film which cuts out all the sampling stops on the way. I haven't checked the ALSJ for the exact time, but they took much longer than that to get to House Rock. Many of these edited clips don't include the right dialogue from the time of the film. It is all mixed up.

    A part I like in the Nasa movie, "Apollo 16: Nothing So Hidden," is where Bill Muehlberger, chief geologist in the Science Support Room at Houston, says as the astronauts are getting smaller and smaller, "And as our crew slowly..." Everyone on the room bursts out laughing and then the camera pans to Jack Schmitt, who is leaning against the wall. He says something I can't quite make out and might include the word "posse", but he finishes the line with, "Disappears into the sunset," also to much laughter. Here, they are taking a dig at the old cowboy movies, just as Mel Brooks did in "Blazing Saddles."

    Some examples of mixed-up dialogue: Young and Duke started out towards House Rock at about GET 167:36:10, and in this move, when they return, Capcom Tony England says, "And we encourage you just to look for some variety." But he actually said that 20 hours earlier, at GET 147:32:11, and his next words in the movie, "We think you could just about head south now," come from earlier still, GET 143:37:47.

    For those who want to look this up on DVD or video tape, the trip to House Rock starts at 11 min 38 sec into the shortened 16 min 49 sec version of the movie, or 21 min 5 sec into the full 28 min 8 sec version.

    This, in particular, is one bit of the lunar TV broadcast that I'd like to see HBs "prove" was faked. There is certainly no sound stage big enough to have contained all the action.

  4. #1384
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    The ALSJ shows 2min 13 sec from the time they were told to check it to the time they got to it. I did actually originally include that Houston were telling jokes about them disappearing into the sunset since they were taking so long, as I remembered it from my clip, but it wasn't in the ALSJ transcript so I dropped it out, now I see why it wasn't there.

  5. #1385
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    Actually on second thought I might be taking the time wrong, they were probably moving before they were told to press on would make it far longer. Anyways here's some of the original discussion about going to it.

    167:36:10 Young: Look at the size of that biggie (meaning House Rock)!

    [Charlie crosses the TV field-of-view from right to left, headed for the Rover.]
    167:36:11 Young: It is a biggie, isn't it. It may be further away than we think because...
    167:36:17 Duke: No, it's not very far. It was just right beyond you (when he was sampling north of the Rover after 166:56:58).

    167:36:19 Young: Theoretically, huh?

    167:36:20 Duke: Yeah.

    167:36:21 Young: Like everything else around here, a couple of weeks later (you still aren't there)...

    [John is saying that things are always farther away than they seem and that trips take longer than he expects. Because there is no atmospheric haze to give an impression of distance, it is very difficult to judge the size and distance of distant objects. Fendell stops the pan to give the Backroom another look into North Ray while he waits for John and Charlie to leave the Rover.]
    [House Rock can be seen at CZ.2/80.6 in the "Descartes EVA-III 3 of 3" map in the Lunar Surface Procedures volume. As indicated in Figure 6-65 in the Preliminary Science Report, House Rock is about 12 meters tall, 16 by 20 meters across, and is about 220 meters from the Rover. At 167:17:38, John only slightly underestimated the distance of House Rock from the Rover as being 150 meters.]

  6. #1386
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    Heh, I should have looked backwards eariler.

    167:36:39 Duke: Okay. Bring yours, too.

    [Charlie starts running toward House Rock. Fendell pans right to follow but cannot pan fast enough to keep him in view.]

    ......


    167:37:00 Duke: (Doing his W.C. Fields voice) Ah, the old footprints on the crater rim! (Pause) That's about halfway. Maybe. (Pause) Okay. Let me just stab (which he pronounces "staub") this (pair of tongs) down here somewhere. (Pause)

    [Charlie stops at the location marked "area of 67710 (rake)" in figure 6-65 in the Preliminary Science Report. He is about 70 meters from the TV camera and the run took about 32 seconds. His average speed was about 7.9 km/hr, and may be the fastest recorded during Apollo.]

    .......

    167:40:45 England: ...press on for the big boulder.

    .....

    167:41:59 England: Okay. That sounds like a good guess.

    [Charlie stops and looks up at House Rock. He is probably near the large fragment known as Outhouse Rock, which is just south of the main boulder as shown in Figure 6-65 in the Preliminary Science Report.]
    167:42:00 Young: Look. See this rock right here, Charlie?!
    167:42:03 Duke: Look at the size of that rock!

  7. #1387
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomWolf
    [John is saying that things are always farther away than they seem and that trips take longer than he expects. Because there is no atmospheric haze to give an impression of distance, it is very difficult to judge the size and distance of distant objects...]
    I liked that they pointed this out in the new IMAX film Magnificent Desolation. They really wanted to do this movie right.

  8. #1388
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    Quote Originally Posted by rahuldandekar
    After the Japan probe would take photos of the Apollo junk, the debunkers would say "These are faked photos. See, it is impossible for blah blah to be blah blah."
    LOL
    Allow me:

    HB: "These are faked fotos. See, it is impossibul for the daybris to still be in position. Rains and tornados would have scatterred it by now."

    BAUT: "No, there's no weather on the moon because there's no atmosphere."

    HB: "You can't prove there's not whether on the moone! give me 1 link, peeps!"

    BAUT: "Here are some links that prove there is no atmosphere on the moon. Therefore, without atmosphere, there is no weather."

    HB: "Theses links is no good b-caus noone's ben to the moone, therfore I am right. I live in a place where there is tornados every year, therefor the moon wich is biger will have more of them!"

    And so on....I just lurked for a moment at apollohoax.net and see that Moon Man is compounding his argument over there. Ah, I didn't mean to get off track. Forgive me, please.

  9. #1389
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    Now, now, Moon Man actually is decently good with his spelling. No need to make fun of him on that -- it just makes it seem like you're stretching to make fun of him.

    Quite frankly, I say that the man makes parody obselete. He practically makes fun of himself.

  10. #1390
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    I had a good laugh a few times before ... I wonder if he still believes that they were there during the lunar night. Might need to enlighten him on that point, or we'll never bury the temperature argument.

  11. #1391
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    I gave up on the temperature argument on all levels. Ugh.

    In Apollohoax, they're even taking the time to try to teach him basic thermodynamics. *Siiiiighs*...

  12. #1392
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    Cool


    And so on....I just lurked for a moment at apollohoax.net and see that Moon Man is compounding his argument over there. Ah, I didn't mean to get off track. Forgive me, please.
    Apparently, the latest from the Moostruck one is that because he was banned here, then BA must be Republican sponsored....

  13. #1393
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    A question for nomuse ...

    Do you ever get the overwhelming urge to shout that all of these regurgitated claims of "proof" are ...

    "Inconceivable!" ???

  14. #1394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero
    I'm sorry, I have got to share this:

    Over at the ApolloHoax BB, Moon Man has declared the lunar liftoff videos fake because the ascent stage "...takes off like a rocket."


    Oh man, you needed to post a coffee-keyboard warning for that one.
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

    All moderation in purple - The rules

  15. #1395
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    I know I exaggerated the misspellings, and you're right, some of the posts make parody impossible. Really, though, a 42-year-old successful attorney who uses "peeps" and can't make subjects agree with verbs? Ah, I'll slap my own wrist right now--despite the frustrations and temptations, I should NOT be discussing personalities, and as of this post, I shall cease and desist.

  16. #1396
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    Quote Originally Posted by cran
    A question for nomuse ...

    Do you ever get the overwhelming urge to shout that all of these regurgitated claims of "proof" are ...

    "Inconceivable!" ???
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    (I had the same feeling everytime Moonman said something was unbelievable)
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

    All moderation in purple - The rules

  17. #1397
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    I find it hard to NOT question Moon Man's personality, though. I probably shouldn't, but let's face it -- I am not likely to believe someone that comes off as an abject and total liar on all levels.

  18. #1398
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    Though I do find it hard NOT to talk about Moon Man, and I don't want to provoke the moderators by speculating, ToSeek is going to lock this if we keep talking about Moon Man himself.

    HBer's will pride themselves by finding any nitpicky thing that sounds reasonable and latch on to it. Never mind that there are lengths upon hours of film that would have been imossible to reproduce in the sixties. Never mind that there are easy ways to protect batteries from extreme environments and that NASA doesn't shop at Wal-Mart for astronaut camping gear like insulating gloves.

    Like I said, some people wouldn't be happy if you hung 'em with a new rope.

  19. #1399
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomuse
    What is it about the lunar landings that brings out so much fear and doubt in people?
    Two words: United States

    There are some people who just hate the US and refuse to believe that it ever accomplished anything. Many of those people are even US citizens.

  20. #1400
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonewulf
    I find it hard to NOT question Moon Man's personality, though. I probably shouldn't, but let's face it -- I am not likely to believe someone that comes off as an abject and total liar on all levels.
    I don't think it is a personal attack to suggest that a person is 12 years old, so that's what I'll say because that sums it up for me. Consider the evidence:

    He thought the space shuttle could go to the moon
    He asked why the LM didn't make a sonic boom
    He said the LM took off like a rocket (and that this was evidence that it was a fake)
    He said that G's are not a measure of acceleration, but only have to do with turning aircraft

    and many many more. It is not possible in my opinion, that an adult could think this way. So, in my opinion, he was either a child (and again, that is not an attack) or he was doing this on purpose.

  21. #1401
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by tofu
    Two words: United States

    There are some people who just hate the US and refuse to believe that it ever accomplished anything. Many of those people are even US citizens.
    Close, but I think the definition is a bit wide- US Govt might be a bit closer, or
    Govt Cover-Up perhaps?

  22. #1402
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    tofu: All that is evidence of is an ignorant person who uses his ignorance to make arrogant claims. It does nothing to really suggest age.

  23. #1403
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    1400 posts to get this far ...
    to get back to the beginning ...
    what a trip!

  24. #1404
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    Quote Originally Posted by tofu
    Two words: United States

    There are some people who just hate the US and refuse to believe that it ever accomplished anything. Many of those people are even US citizens.
    Could I ask for evidence on this?

    While I have little patience with HBs, I have not personally seen any such link in any statistical sense.

  25. #1405
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    Sometimes I wonder if there is a religious angle. Something about the heavens supposed to be something removed from the tawdry affairs of men.

    To me, I look at the moon and my most animal instinct cries out "It can't be that hard to get to!" It looks like a silver bauble hanging only tens of miles overhead.

    A perhaps more likely thought is that reaction to the moon landing is focused reaction against the buzz-cut, white-shirt-and-tie engineers who know so much more than "we" do, and who can't resist tinkering with the world -- floridating our water, making nuclear weapons, etc. If this were really the case, though, I'd expect the anti-Apollo sentiments to have most of their roots in the 60's.

    Instead, strangely, it seems most of them sprung up after science fiction went mainstream, and during the decades were being a geek finally became cool.

    I wonder if anyone has done a history on the Moon Hoax; when it begun, what the numbers of believers were in past decades, et al?

  26. #1406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daffy
    Could I ask for evidence on this?

    While I have little patience with HBs, I have not personally seen any such link in any statistical sense.
    Evidence as in, you want a scientific study? Maybe a survey? I doubt such evidence exists. My statement was opinion.

    However, I can provide anecdotal evidence. I can tell you why I believe what I believe. Take MoonMan as an example. He made statements to the effect that the Russian space program was superior to the US program. So, the Russians are better than the US, and the US fakes things. He also said that the shuttle would be useless without the canadarm (that presumably, the US could not design itself).

    I don't know, I just sensed an underlying current of hatred. To me, it's similar to how scientists in the 1800's made up stories of lost white civilizations in Africa because when they found evidence of ancient accomplishments, they just couldn't believe that blacks could accomplish anything like that. I think that to some extent some people (not all) have bought into media and hollywood propaganda about Americans, and they just cannot bring themselves to believe that a fat, lazy, greedy, oversexed, stupid, cowboy American could accomplish anything at all. American's landed on the Moon? No way!

    And of course it works both ways. There aren't many asians in the town where I live, so when I married one my family was surprised by a lot of things, because they had all these little prejudices.

    And here's a funny story for you. When I was in the Army in Germany, we officers went on a staff ride to a WWII battlefield. I forget which one it was, but it was way out in the middle of nowhere. The people there rarely saw American service members. Most of their knowledge of Americans was from TV and movies. We called ahead to some restaurant and got reservations for like 20 people and when we showed up, they had practically closed the place down, because they were planning for 20 obese people, because that's what they assumed Americans would be :-) edit to add: If memory serves this was around the time that the Olympics were in Atlanta, Georgia and apparently the local TV was running a lot of stories where they'd just stand around in Atlanta with a camera and record fat people walking here and there. I guess it was a popular program in Europe because it played to those prejudices.

    I've got lots of stories like that. The bottom line is, I do think that people have prejudices that override any logical examination of the facts.

    There are other reasons that hoax believers believe. Someone else brought up religion. That's probably a common one too.

  27. #1407
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    Post #1,407 is evidence that very few HBer's stick their necks out in here. It also says something of how bored we were of talking about the CT amongst other non-HBer's!

  28. #1408
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    We do have our own unquestioned beliefs.

    Such as a belief in the human race; a belief that says, among other things, if something was technically possible (such as a Pacific crossing on a balsa-wood raft), someone would have done it. If you can get a block of stone up a pyramid using only primitive tools, then those canny and motivated Egyptians would have figured it out and done it. No need to call in Ancient Astronauts to do the task.

    Also a belief in science; that the scientific method is one of the most powerful, and perhaps the only appropriate, method of inquiry into many questions. And in the essential transparency of science; that there is no firewall, no priesthood or cabal; that only education and enquiry stands between any of us and any item at the bleeding edge of science and technology.

    Which in its own way refutes my opening statement. We believe in science as a self-correcting mechanism, and we attempt to apply scientific methods to most of what we do. Therefore, we have some reason to hope that our own belief structure is also open to this corrective process.

  29. #1409
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    very eloquent post nomuse.

  30. #1410
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    Except that for some, for whom the "proper" education is difficult or out of reach, it IS a "firewall" or "cabal". We've been priviliged enough to have or find that opportunity. I look at some of the people I know from some areas and feel truly sorry for them. The odds are so stacked against them in terms of good education and ANY post-secondary education. They DON'T have easy internet access and all that's available to them through TV, radio, papers and even their own parent(s) is limited and often one-sided. When they get older and meet up with communities like BAUT or even individuals like you or me, what will they bring to the table but what they know?

    CJSF
    "Soon the man who sweeps the room brings the secret telegram, 'COMMENCE OFFICIAL INTERPLANETARY EXPLORATION.' "
    -They Might Be Giants, "Destination Moon"

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