Order of Kilopi
English did not exist yet when Gaelic languages first appeared. The separation between the Germanic ancestor of English and the Celtic branch... well, that information should be googlable, but needless to say it was a long, long time ago. It's worth pointing out too that the separation likely occurred on the European mainland, not in the British Isles.Originally Posted by Gillianren
Established Member
Gaelic in Scotland was mainly a spoken language, and was hardly written. As such, regional variations are pretty extreme - to the extent that some dialects are barely mutually comprehensible. In Scottish schools where Gaelic is taught, they use a standard "modern" Gaelic - which I believe is based strongly on the dialect from the Isle of Lewis. The separation of the Celtic branch of language is indeed extremely old - and there are of course further divisions within Celtic, which are themselves very old. The language spoken in the Highlands by the Picts (probably being similar to Welsh and Manx) bears very little resemblence to Gaelic, for example, despite the antiquity and "Celticness" of both languages. All Scots Gaelic dialects ultimately stem from the migrations of Irish Gaels into Scotland. The "local" Gaelic in some parts of Scotland is closer to Irish than in others, and I understand that in some parts of northern Ireland (using the term geographically) there can be noticed a Scots Gaelic influence on the Irish language (there were migrations of Scots into Ireland later).
Order of Kilopi
Curiously the word Gaelic (or, rather, its earliest form, which was something like Goídel) is Celtic but not Gaelic!
The Celtic languages can be divided into two groups, P-Celtic and Q-Celtic. Originally there was just Q-Celtic; then a split occurred (When? We don't know. Perhaps about 1000 BC?) and most Celtic dialects replaced initial Qs with Ps. The earliest Celtic speakers in Britain and Ireland were P-Celts. Welsh, Cornish and Breton are/were P-Celtic.
When the first Q-Celts arrived in Ireland (c150-100 BC we think), they were referred to as "wildmen", or Goídel, by the Irish P-Celts, and that's where the words Gael and Gaelic and all their variants come from. The Gael eventually conquered the island and the P-Celtic dialects became extinct in Ireland.
Established Member
Happy now?
Bad Post-Doc
Yup, this thread hijack is all my fault (insert disapproving tone here).
_____________________________________________
Gillian
"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"
"You can't erase icing."
"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"
Order of Kilopi
Gillian's cute when she's disapproving.
(I was going to say angry, when I realized I couldn't really claim she's angry, per se)
Established Member
I don't see how a discussion about the history of languages could be thought of of hijacking anyway.
Order of Kilopi
This thread was hijkacked away from astronomy some 3 or 4 pages ago. Come to think of it, it was more about geography than astronomy, to begin with. Let's hope the moderators continue not noticing.
Order of Kilopi
Maybe if we offer the BA a 10% of profits if anyone here publishes a Bad History or such novel?
Established Member
The thread is called Bad History......This thread was hijkacked away from astronomy some 3 or 4 pages ago. Come to think of it, it was more about geography than astronomy, to begin with. Let's hope the moderators continue not noticing.
Bad Post-Doc
You know, if the meds work, I just might--if I can concentrate on one thing long enough to do research after.
_____________________________________________
Gillian
"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"
"You can't erase icing."
"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"
Order of Kilopi
But the subforum is called Bad Astronomy Stories. It's supposed to be about the Bad Astronomer's website.
P.S. I'm not complaining, though. I love history.
Order of Kilopi
Well, since this thread has become more about complaining about the thread being hijacked...
Wait.
You all hijacked this thread, to talk about how it was hijacked. HAHAHAH!
You all are silly.
...so am I, but still.
Established Member
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I once heard talk that Basque & Welsh were fairly closely related languages in the scheme of things. Might have a google on that.
Order of Kilopi
Absolutely not. It has been suggested that the pre-Celtic inhabitants of Britain and Ireland may have been related to the Basques, and the languages spoken in these islands before the introduction of Celtic languages may have been akin to the Basque language. I think there may even be some DNA evidence to support this theory.
Order of Kilopi
Wow. I grew up being told to mind my "p's and q's". I did not realize that could have got me killed at one time.Yikes
Order of Kilopi
I hope Eroica's post won't be misunderstood!Absolutely not. It has been suggested that the pre-Celtic inhabitants of Britain and Ireland may have been related to the Basques, and the languages spoken in these islands before the introduction of Celtic languages may have been akin to the Basque language. I think there may even be some DNA evidence to support this theory.
What he means (I hope) is that Basque and Welsh are absolutely not related, although there may be a relation between the Basques and pre-Celtic settlers of the British Isles. There are many hypotheses (and myths) about the origin of the Basque language, but it remains a language isolate to this day.
Order of Kilopi
Yes, that was all I meant. Apologies all round if it sounded condescending.
Order of Kilopi
Your post did not sound condescending to me, Eroica. I just thought it might be misinterpreted, since you replied with a negative to jkmccrann's negative statement "Forgive me if I'm wrong, but..."
Order of Kilopi
Oh, I get it ... now. I should have edited that negative bit out.Your post did not sound condescending to me, Eroica. I just thought it might be misinterpreted, since you replied with a negative to jkmccrann's negative statement "Forgive me if I'm wrong, but..."
Established Member
Heid the Ba' is one of the Dunedain? Who knew? I figured that would be a lot farther west...
(Say, is there an emoticon hereabouts for "ducking and covering"?)
Established Member
One piece of bad history that really annoys me is more a piece of missing history.
Everybody is well acquainted with the Dunkirk evacuation in World War 2, right? In the UK, there's (quite rightly) mention of the brave armada of little boats and much waving of wee union flags.
But - how many people are aware of Churchill's sacrifice of the 51st Highland division? Left behind and placed under French command, partly to fight a delaying rearguard action to give those selected for rescue time to escape, but mostly to show the French government that Britain wasn't abandoning them..... Over 8,000 killed or captured, including the fathers and grandfathers of several friends of mine. It's time their contribution was recognised! This is one of the main reasons why Winston Churchill is not held in such high esteem up here as in the rest of the UK. In some quarters, he is despised.
Established Member
But it couldn't have been captured it re-appeared in North Africa within months........
It certainly wasn't the most obvious choice of division based on location, but was the one most likely to do the job. (Or is this just Jock paranioa?)
Established Member
Most of the division was captured/killed, but not all of it. Some parts of it weren't in France at the time, for example. There's a bit about the history of a part of that division on this Ministry of Defence website.
I think the general feeling is that the troops were disposable, what with only being Highlanders and everything. There's an excellent book about it, but for the life of me I can't remember the author or book names. The copy I read belonged to the father of a friend, and had been given to him by the author (with a wee thankyou note hand written in the dust cover) - he was a medical orderly, and was wounded and captured.
*edit - found the book, it's Churchill's Sarifice Of The Highland Division: France 1940 by Saul David.
Last edited by Lianachan; 2005-Nov-15 at 03:27 PM.
Established Member
Apologies, I'm on a computer that doesn't let me use smilies.
Non-Scots just talk amongst yourselves for the rest of this post........
The 51st in North Africa was the 9th Highland Division (a Territorial/training formation) re-numbered, with details from the "old" 51st. Of course the Great War 9th was a "Scottish" division, not a "Highland" one, so why you were given the number of that division in 1939 is the subject of some dispute. My favourite designation is the late war 50th Lowland (Mountain) Division.
.........and now a return to your scheduled programme.
Established Member
Indeed. But - all irrelevant to my point, which is essentially that it's about time these guys got some recognition for what they did around Dunkirk.
The 9th Highland Infantry division were formed in 1939, after the 51st was ordered (in 1938) to make a copy of itself. I have no idea why they were given the number 9. But they were still a bona fide Highland division.
Better MOD link
Last edited by Lianachan; 2005-Nov-16 at 09:29 AM. Reason: To provide link, and supporting text.
Established Member
What was the fighting strength of the Highlanders at the time? Were they at full strength, or close to it?
Established Member
If it hasn't been added to the "bad history" pile.
Polish Cavalry attacking German Tanks in 1939. Never happened. Certainly not en masse as the Germans wanted everyone to think, and not trying to spear tanks with lances, either.
John
Order of Kilopi
Y'know, I've been recently doing some research into Poland...
The Hussars were pretty darn cool.
Did you all know that I'm directly related to a man mentioned in the Polish National Anthem? At least, that's what my mother claims; I haven't done much actual research into it.
(My name is Vincent Dubach. The man in specific is General Dumbraski... assuming he's a general. Like I said, NO research whatsoever)
Established Member
I'd read somewhere (i forget where now) that someone suggested that the wings on the hussaria would make a sort of screeching sound when they charged. Something reminiscent of a dive bomber diving. Which, if true, must have been an awesome psychological advantage on the 17th century battlefield.
But yeah, regardless, they were an incredible military tool and routinely defeated forces larger than themselves. Which was necessary because Commonwealth Poland had a miniscule army and a lot of enemies.
Yes, there is a general Dambrowski in the polish national anthem.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/polish_music...dabrowski.html
John
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote