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Thread: Presentation Of New Launch Method

  1. #1
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    Hi,
    My name is Yavuz Basturk, i am software developer at Turkey.
    I have a patent of idea which is alternative to rockets to carry kargo to the orbit.
    It is more advantageous compared to classical rocket ships from the
    point of view of cost and security.

    Detailed three A4 description can be found on http://www.yablam.org/sum_eng.htm

    Yavuz BASTURK

    i paste description of system from web page
    ------------------------------------------------------

    THE PRESENTATION OF YABLAM


    Yablam is a new method which was developed for carrying utility cargo to the orbit in a safe way with a little cost. It is more advantageous compared to classical rocket ships from the point of view of cost and security. Yablam stands for “Yavuz Baştürk Launch Method”.



    Yablam, is composed of lengthening a hose to 185 km above the surface, carrying weight of the hose by sharing by intermediate stations and rising the utility cargo via the hose in lift cabins. System, briefly, aims to launch rocket ships, which carries cargo, in a horizontal way, not in a vertical way, to the space from a launcher which was made 185 kilometers above. Therefore there will not be the air friction problem, it can be reached to orbit speed with a very little fuel.



    Elements of the system

    · Fuel Hose

    Rocket ships do not storage the whole of the fuel ,which will be consumed, in their own structure. Fuel continuously pumped to all of the rocket ships in the system from the tanks on the surface by pumps which run by electrical energy. The fuel hose will probably be produced from Carbon-Epoxy material which has got optimum values and is available easily and the cheapest material in the market. There are alternatives such as Kevlar/dyneema rope. Another function of the fuel hose is that it is also the lift rope. Lift cabins will rise up on the hose by electrical energy.



    · Type of the fuel

    It will be used hydrogen/oxygen as fuel. H-O can be stored tanks on the surface in huge quantities and pumped in liquid or gas form by the hose. For making the system more secure and making the hose lighter and more simple , there is also the alternative of pumping water only. Water appropriate to electrolyses (for example salty sea water) is stored in big pools on the earth. Electrolyses equipment in the stations simultaneously decomposes water into hydrogen and oxygen by using the high voltage line which exists along the hose and supplies to the rocket ships.



    · Electrolyses equipment in the stations

    If liquid water is preferred as fuel, Electrolyses equipment in the stations simultaneously decomposes water into hydrogen and oxygen and supplies to the rocket ships. Decomposing water in the stations by methods, which are out of electrolyses, is also a research matter.



    · High voltage line

    There is also a high voltage line on the 185 km hose in a vertical way. Fuel pumps, which exist on the earth and in the every intermediate station, will run by this electrical energy. Lift cabins, which will rise up, will also rise up by this electrical energy. If the type of fuel is preferred as water, electrolyses equipment which exists in intermediate stations will decomposes water into hydrogen and oxygen by real-time electrolyses by this electrical energy and transfers to rocket ship as fuel. Other electronic equipment on the hose and in the stations will also provide their power from this line. Electrical energy can be produced by any kind of method on the earth. Fuel oil generators, mini nuclear power stations or city electrical network can be used.



    · Intermediate stations

    It is difficult for the 185 km hose to carry its own weight and intermediate pumps by the materials which are in use today. Therefore weight of the hose will be carried by fixed stations which are on every 10 km. station can be imagined as a metallic disk at a diameter of 20-30 meters. The fuel hose passes through center of the disk and station is fixed on the hose. There are rocket ship, pump and electrolyses equipment in every station. Rocket ship in every station will be designed as that it can carry station equipment and the 10 km rope below and lift cabin in addition. It will be understood by the estimations which every kilometer the stations will be fixed on the hose. 10 km is an example value.

    · Pump on the stations

    It is impossible to raise the fuel 185 km up by just one pump. Therefore there is a pump on every intermediate station which runs by electricity. Every pump will pump the fuel which comes from the pump below to the pump above at an appropriate pressure.



    · Navigation& Communication equipment on the stations

    It is required to hold all of the stations and the hose on a virtual 90 degrees vertical line as a 185 km vertical structure. Therefore there will be GPS or a similar installation system on stations and the hose. Because the rocket ships have got exhaust outputs on XYZ, station will be moved by rocket power in required direction automatically. A special installation system for this system can be produced from zero by GPS transmitters located on the earth.



    · Lift cabins

    Lift cabin will carry satellite, human or any kind of material required to be reached to the orbit. Because every station in the system has the ability of carrying lift cabin, if there are 18 stations in the system, 18 lift cabins will simultaneously rise up on the hose by electricity. When the lift cabin reaches the top station at a height of 185 km, launch preparations at the horizontal direction are started. There are a rocket engine and an empty fuel tank in every lift cabin. The tank in the cabin is filled with fuel at the height of 185 km. Then the cabin is released into space and launched in horizontal direction. At this height, the cabin will reach orbital speed and utility cargo will enter the orbit. After it enters the orbit at the height of 185 km, if required, it can be reached the orbital height required with a little fuel. Lift cabin and the rocket in the cabin is disposable. When the satellite is reached to required height, cabin and rocket are fired by letting it fall into atmosphere.



    First launch of the system

    Before the Yablam is launched, 185 km fuel hose stands on the earth as coiled around a bobbin. The hose is full with fuel. The stations are fixed on the hose every 10 km. Electricity is produced in the line on the hose. Fuel pumping starts and the first station began to rise up by the rocket power. Because there is not escape speed& fuel storage problem for the rockets on the stations, they can rise up with a speed such 30 km/hr. the first station rises up 10 km by dragging the hose below and the rocket power is lessened and the rocket is suspended in the air in a fix point like a helicopter. Meanwhile, second station is prepared to launch on the earth and the second one simultaneously starts to rise up in a synchronic way. When all the stations rise in the same way, we will have a 185 km vertical structure. After all of the lift cabins are launched into the orbit, the yablam hose will go down into the earth in the same way which it is launched and the system is closed by packaging on the earth. Yablam will be 6-7 hours or a few days in air just when it will be used, it will come back to the earth when it completes its mission.



    About the system’s weight

    Fuel in the hose does not create a weight for the system. Because the fuel is continuously pumped by electricity which is produced on the earth and is continuously in movement, it does not create weight. But the fuel flow must not stop even just a second and the required quantity of fuel must continuously pumped. If fuel flow stops for a second, the fuel in the 185 hose will turn into weight and the system will collapse by its own weight. If the fuel is pumped more than required, excessive fuel will be released out. Every rocket in the system carries just itself, other equipment on the station and the empty hose piece which extends to the station below. Every hose piece carries just the hose piece which extends the station below too. If required distance between stations is estimated as 4 km instead of 10 km for this, the distance between stations will be designated as 4 km.



    About economical value of the system

    Lift cabins in the same number of stations will simultaneously rise up. A new utility cargo will be entered the orbit in every approximately 20-30 minutes depending on the cabin’s rising speed. Therefore space hotel, lunar hotel, commercial manufacturing facilities in areas without gravity, meteorite minor ships, inter planet passenger ships, transfer of pieces of inter stars passenger ships, assembling them in the space will be a reasonable aim for human being. 2-3 satellites at most can be launched by classic rockets and there is a explosion risk 1/33. Today, the cost of carrying one kg material to orbit is at a range of $10,000. Investment cost and freight cost per kg of carrying to orbit will be very less by the Yablam Method.

    Comparing to space elevator project

    Space elevator is designed as a rope from the earth to 100,000 km up. This rope is stretched by centrifugal force and gravity and can stand as a vertical structure. So lift cabins can rise up on this vertical structure. But it is impossible to produce space lift under present conditions. Because the only material which can lean against such a stress is Carbon nano tube. Production of sufficient quantity of carbon nano tube is not an arguable matter and it can not be guessed when it will be possible. Even if it can be produced in sufficient quantities, the cost of the space lift is guessed between 7-15 billion dollars. But the Yablam idea can be produced with the materials available by relatively very less investment cost. Because the space elevator is in vertical position, it must lean against conditions such as space garbage, meteor dust, negatively weather conditions. Either these are not such kind of risks in Yablam Project or very little.



    Security evaluation of the system

    Because standard rockets carry in huge quantity of fuel, it is nearly impossible the personnel to survive after an explosion. Because fuel is safely stored on the earth in yablam project, a big explosion risk is too little. There is not huge quantity of fuel in the rockets in fire. If assumed that a rocket explores, valves, which are fixed on the hose in periodical distant, will be closed automatically and the severity and effect of the explosion will be less.

    During the explosion, security rockets in the lift cabins which are rising up, will be launched and the cabins will go away from the hose in a vertical position. Then they will reach the earth in a safe way by free falling and parachutes. The system can be launched from a vessel on the ocean or a desert against the risk of the 185 km hose filled with fuel on inhabited place. When a design is developed which will pump water to hose instead of H-O, the risk will be reasonable.

    Other information



    Other Info

    Because the Yablam will stand for a certain time, the most appropriate weather conditions will be waited for. Despite possible jet streams are very strong winds, it is possible to overcome them by low air density at that height, small cross section of the hose and the low rising speed of the system. In south and north poles, jet streams are always zero. If jet streams will be a serious problem, the system can be built at polar points.

    Because there is not high quantity of fuels in the rockets, it seems that there is no big explosion risk. Therefore risks for human being are less. All the fuel is stored in secure places on the earth.

    If it is decided to pump water instead of H-O, breaking of the hose will be a high risk people living around. In that case, Yablam can be launched from a vessel on the ocean or desert.

    Bobbin-like structure, which the hose is coiled, on the earth must round at the same speed with rockets’ rising speed. If we assume that rockets will rise up at the speed of 30km/hr, 8,3 meters/s rounding speed seems reasonable. As an alternative solution, 185 km hose and 10 cm diameter are assumed, it will cover185km*10cm = 185,000,000 cm2 of area, therefore an area of 300m*300m is considered enough. When all the hose is spread over the area there won't be any friction problem.



    Conclusion

    Yablam is now just at idea stage and just the patent was taken out. Any required estimations and researches aren’t carried out. Just 30-50 people have positively thoughts on this matter. If my opinion is considered appropriate, I would like it would be a scientific article or master thesis


    The owner of the idea and patent right


    Name : Yavuz BAŞTÜRK

    Country : Turkey

    Email: yavuzbasturk@yablam.org

    Msn : yavuzbasturk@hotmail.com (don’t send mail please)

    Icq : 127012544

  2. #2
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    Hi Yavuz, welcome to the UT forum.

    I am moving your post from Alternative Theories to Space Exploration, as this is a patented system to help explore space, and not an alternative to our main-stream understanding of the universe, and the objects in it.

    I would like to point out that I don't see how you can have a 185 mile long hose pump fuel into a craft that is accelerating up to 24,000 KPH from the Earth. This would pretty much require that the ground based tankers would also have to go that fast. You probably have a way to solve this issue, but I didn't see it.
    Forming opinions as we speak

  3. #3
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    Yavuz: Watch the arithmetic! I think the weight of your hose alone will exceed the tensile strength of any currently available hose material. If you pump water up the hose, how will you disassociate it into H2 and O2. If you pump up H2 and O2, two hoses will be required because they must not be allowed to come into contact with each other. Such equipment will add weight and increase the fuel you'll have to burn in each lift cabin to maintain position. You'll burn a lot of fuel just maintaining the cabins in position. Your operating costs will be huge and it will be difficult to smoothly handle cabin rocket engine failures and or replacements to avoid failures which may add fuel weight to your hose.

    Can you do the arithmetic and present a quantitative comparison with ordinary rocket launching methods in terms of payload efficiencies and costs?

    Also, any such system has to lend itself to being developed and built preferably prior to construction of the production unit(s). How would you develop and test this system to assure that you had considered safety factors in your design to minimize failures and their consequences? Have you completed failure mode and effect analyses? For instance, thrust failures on any stage will immediately load the hose with the entire weight of that stage. How can disaster be avoided?

    Antoniseb: If I may be allowed to help Yavuz with the problem you pointed out, he could program the guidance control system controlling his cabin thrusters to maintain the desired verticality of his hose...at an appreciable cost in efficiency.

    Here, despite the title, is a discussion about the usability of a space elevator for Earth launches (or to avoid having to make them). Yavuz, you may find that discussion helpful. The advantage it would have over your system is that once you reached geosynchronous orbit, the effort to achieve and maintain payload orbit is much less difficult than for your system especially if you choose to use the system near either pole.

    Either solar system colonization or interstellar travel and colonization will require a much more robust system than the one you have described. Reliability and maintainability are paramount for such a system.

  4. #4
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    I created pictures of launch scenario.

    Scenario parameters ;
    - we have 6 payloads
    - to make pictures easy we use 180km launch target instead of 185km high.
    - to make pictures easy we use 4 station and 45km hose piece between stations.
    - to make pictures easy we use 4 pumps total in system
    - combining and separating hose and station at ground cost 3 minute time
    - Filling fuel tank of lift cabin at 185km cost 5 minute of time
    - Ascending speed of lift cabins is 90km/h
    - Ascending and descending speed of stations is 135km/h
    - Full scenario cost 05 hour and 20 minutes of time.
    - text of changed objects in pictures is red color.

    http://www.yablam.org/H-O_hose_cross_section.GIF
    this is picture of hose cross section if we use H-O as a fuel.

    http://www.yablam.org/water_hose_cross_section.GIF
    this is picture of hose cross section if we use water as a fuel.

    we start scenario ;

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_00.GIF Step(00) Time = 00:00
    Yablam is ready and waiting to be launched. All hose is full of fuel.
    Electric plant ready to produce electric. stations are waiting at ground.
    Payload cabins are waiting at ground too.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_01.GIF Step(01) Time = 00:03
    Station #1 combined with hose and waiting to launch.
    Payload #1 is combined to hose in 3 minutes.
    Payload will ascend with station #1.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_02.GIF Step(02) Time = 00:23
    Station #1 ascending with 135km/h. Reaching to 45km high takes 20 minute.
    When station #1 ascend 45km high, it will stop ascending and it is fixed
    at 45km as a helicopter.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_03.GIF Step(03) Time = 00:26
    we combine Station #2 and payload #2 with hose in 3 minute.
    now both station #1 and station #2 are ready to start ascend at same time with same speed.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_04.GIF Step(04) Time = 00:49
    Station #1 and station #2 start ascending at same time. After 20 minute station #1 is
    at 90km high and statiobn #2 is as 45km high. now stations stıp ascend and wait at fixed
    point as a helicopter.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_05.GIF Step(05) Time = 01:12
    we combined station #3 and payload #2 to hose and all 3 stations ascended 20 minute (45km).
    first 3 station is waiting like helicopter.
    now we combine station #4 and and payload #4 to hose.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_06.GIF Step(06) Time = 01:32
    all stations ascended 20 minute (45km).
    now first station ascended to target 180km high.
    on next many hours stations will not ascend or descend.
    while stations are carrying 185km hose, payload lifts will ascend with electric power.
    now we are ready to fill fuel to payload #1 lift rocket.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_07.GIF Step(07) Time = 01:37
    we filled payload #1's lift rocket with fuel in 5 minutes, fuel showed with red color.
    we are ready to launch payload #1 at horizontal.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_08.GIF Step(08) Time = 01:37
    payload #1's lift launched.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_09.GIF Step(09) Time = 01:40
    all other payloads (#2,#3 and #4) ascending at same time.
    After payload #4 ascended after station #1, we combine payload #5 to hose at gorund level.
    we wait payload #4 to ascend after station #1 because, a station can carry maximum 1 lift at a time.
    now all 4 payloads ascending at same time.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_10.GIF Step(10) Time = 02:00
    after 20 minutes all payloads ascended 45km each.
    now we are ready to launch payload #2 at horizontal.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_11.GIF Step(11) Time = 02:05
    We fill fuel to payload #2's lift rocket in 5 minutes.
    We launch payload #2 horizontal direction.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_12.GIF Step(12) Time = 02:08
    we combined payload #6 with hose and all payloads are ascending with electric power.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_13.GIF Step(13) Time = 02:33
    payload #3 is at 180km.
    We fill fuel to rocket of payload #3
    It is ready to lauch.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_14.GIF Step(14) Time = 02:33
    payload #3 launched.
    now station #4 burn low fuel beacuse it does not carry payload anymore.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_15.GIF Step(15) Time = 02:58
    payload #4 launched.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_16.GIF Step(16) Time = 03:23
    payload #5 launched.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_17.GIF Step(17) Time = 03:48
    payload #6 launched.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_18.GIF Step(18) Time = 03:48
    Mission completed.
    We launched 6 payload successfully.
    Now we descend full system back to the ground.
    Descending method of stations is same as ascending method of stations.
    All stations burn low fuel so they descend with 135km/h speed.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_19.GIF Step(19) Time = 04:08
    Station #4 is ready to be separated from hose.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_20.GIF Step(20) Time = 04:31
    Station #4 is seperated from hose.
    Pump of station #4 is seperated from station #4 too.
    Station #3 is ready to be separated from hose.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_21.GIF Step(21) Time = 04:54
    Station #3 is seperated from hose.
    Pump of station #3 is seperated from station #3 too.
    Station #2 is ready to be separated from hose.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_22.GIF Step(22) Time = 05:17
    Station #2 is seperated from hose.
    Pump of station #2 is seperated from station #2 too.
    Station #1 is ready to be separated from hose.

    http://www.yablam.org/yablam_launch_23.GIF Step(23) Time = 05:20
    Station #1 is seperated from hose.
    Mission completed.
    Yablam structure is ready to re-use for next launch mission.
    we only destroyed small rockets on lift cabins.

  5. #5
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    I had misunderstood. I thought you were trying to get to orbit, but all you want to do is get above the atmosphere above a place on Earth. Do you have some ideas for what that would be useful for?
    Forming opinions as we speak

  6. #6
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    a friend calculated next paragrapf about my idea ;

    The main problem for a rocket are the 7.7 km/s needed to accelerate a payload into low earth orbit. Overcoming gravity usually takes about 1.5 km/s. In your design you are only overcoming the 1.5 km/s - you still need a rocket to accelerate the payload to 7.7 km/s. Using hydrogen and oxygen (exhaust velocity of 4500 m/s) you get a mass ratio of 0.183 => The empty mass of your rocket plus payload would have to be lighter than 18.3% of the launch mass).
    as i understand we can launch horizontally 2.7 ton of (rocket+payload) with 13,05 ton fuel (total 15 ton) at 185 km high and we get payload in orbital speed.

    another important question is what is ratio of (cost of fuel) / (cost of hardware) for a standart rocket.
    if rocket hardware itself cost 200 million dollar and 500 ton fuel cost 50 million dolar, this is good for yablam idea. but if rocket hardware cost 50 miilon dollar and 500 ton fuel cost 200 million dollar, this is bad for yablam idea because main cost of yablam launch is fuel, not hardware.

    possible reasons why this idea is feasible ;

    - if you use standart rocket, you can launch 2 or 3 payload at a time (10-15 ton payload per a launch mission). at my idea you can launch tens or hundreds of payloads.

    - if you use rocket, rocket will be destroyed totally. in my idea system can be used many times years long in theory. so cost of launch missions will be ONLY fuel and electric producing cost.

    - to produce new classic rocket, you spend few months and hudrend millions dollars. in yablam idea relaunching can be done in weeks i think and you only store more fuel and create lift cabins as needed amount.

    - maybe research will proof that ; yablam idea is feasible only when we launch minimum 20 payload (or minimum 100 ton) at a time. if we decrease launch prices you can find customer for 20 payloads i think.

    - think countries that dont have space industry now. is creating rocket tehchnology or creating yablam technology is easiser and cheaper for them ?

    - a space hotel may be thousands of tons. launching thousands of tons to orbit with standart rockets, you need to build hundreds of rocket and this will not be feasible. with yablam you can launch 1.000 of payload (each 5 ton) is possible in 1.000 x 30 min = 26 days. human needs many facilities at orbital each is thousands tons. (mars ship maybe, moon hotel, astreoid mining ship,..)

    - yablam is safer. fuel stored at ground in safety tanks. a possible explosion at station rockets high probbaly will not kill humans in lift cabins. lift cabins have enough fuel to escape from hose when needed. with classic rockets, after an explosion people inside rockets dies %99.99 probability as i know.

    i am not sure yablam is feasible, many calculations & research is needed to be sure.

  7. #7
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    I haven't done any calculations but it sounds like you'd need an awful lot of power to lift the fuel pipes. You'd need enough thrust from each of the platforms to keep the pipes in position and they'd have to be heavy to make them safe. A fuel leak or failure in any section would have serious consequences.

    Is the thrust needed to lift a very heavy object at 1.5 km/s going to be less than that needed to lift a much lighter rocket at 7.7km/s?

    I think a more permanent structure like the space elevator would work out cheaper because you only need to erect it once, not every time you do a new launch.

    An interesting idea but it will only be proven by the calculations that you need to back it up with.

  8. #8
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    Originally posted by Sp1ke@Jun 15 2005, 04:51 PM
    I haven't done any calculations but it sounds like you'd need an awful lot of power to lift the fuel pipes. You'd need enough thrust from each of the platforms to keep the pipes in position and they'd have to be heavy to make them safe. A fuel leak or failure in any section would have serious consequences.

    Is the thrust needed to lift a very heavy object at 1.5 km/s going to be less than that needed to lift a much lighter rocket at 7.7km/s?

    I think a more permanent structure like the space elevator would work out cheaper because you only need to erect it once, not every time you do a new launch.

    An interesting idea but it will only be proven by the calculations that you need to back it up with.
    a friend calculated how much fuel we need to launch payload horizontal at 185km high.

    The main problem for a rocket are the 7.7 km/s needed to accelerate a payload into low earth orbit. Overcoming gravity usually takes about 1.5 km/s. In your design you are only overcoming the 1.5 km/s - you still need a rocket to accelerate the payload to 7.7 km/s. Using hydrogen and oxygen (exhaust velocity of 4500 m/s) you get a mass ratio of 0.183 => The empty mass of your rocket plus payload would have to be lighter than 18.3% of the launch mass).
    we can not build space elevator today (no enough carbon nanotube)
    we can build my idea today (if it is possible by physics laws and economic at long term), nasa can build my idea in 1 year probably.

    space elevator cost 5-15 billion$
    i think my idea cost between 400 million$ - 1 billion$.

    i think like you,
    to proof that idea works, many calculations must be done (that i can't do)
    but to proof that idea will not work, many calculations must be done too.

  9. #9
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    Maybe I'm totally missing something, but how do these platforms and tubes magically get to altitude, and what is keeping them there? The first platform somehow lifts up to 45km...how?!?! what gets it there? how does it stay there? I don't understand. I read through the explanation twice; I MUST be missing something.

  10. #10
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    at a guess our friend has seen a backward squirting hose as used to clear drains and as it is capable of rising upwards as a hover jet he assumed that the same principle could be used on a grander scale.

    however full marks for lateral thinking and i wish yavuzbasturk well and keep thinking laterally.

  11. #11
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    Maybe I'm totally missing something, but how do these platforms and tubes magically get to altitude, and what is keeping them there?
    Yavuz said
    Another function of the fuel hose is that it is also the lift rope. Lift cabins will rise up on the hose by electrical energy.*
    He must be assuming electrically powered "helicopter-like" blades for the cabins, but then he says the cabins are expendable. I had assumed he would have rocket powered reusable cabins.

    My guess is that when the arithmetic is done and the tensile strength of the rope-hose is determined, YABLAM is toast. Yavuz, you need to get out more into the industrial world and see how a project comes together. Neither NASA nor any other space agency can afford to consider a system with so many disaster generating failure modes even if they could find appropriate material, construction procedures, and test methods.

    Are any of the following terms interchangeable: cabin, lift cabin, station, payload cabin?

  12. #12
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    Originally posted by aeolus@Jun 16 2005, 12:17 AM
    Maybe I'm totally missing something, but how do these platforms and tubes magically get to altitude, and what is keeping them there? The first platform somehow lifts up to 45km...how?!?! what gets it there? how does it stay there? I don't understand. I read through the explanation twice; I MUST be missing something.
    we are pumping fuel in hose. fuel of rockets will be pumped from hose realtime.

  13. #13
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    we are pumping fuel in hose. fuel of rockets will be pumped from hose realtime.
    Where are the rockets, that you are pumping the fuel to in realtime, mounted? How is the hot rocket engine exhaust expelled away from the part of the system lying below where the rockets are mounted?

    we can not build space elevator today (no enough carbon nanotube)
    we can build my idea today (if it is possible by physics laws and economic at long term), nasa can build my idea in 1 year probably.
    space elevator cost 5-15 billion$
    i think my idea cost between 400 million$ - 1 billion$.*
    Not only is there not enough CNT, there isn't any with sufficient tensile strength to mass ratio.

    Neither the time line nor the cost of either system is anywhere near achievable within your estimates. No one is suficiently knowledgeable nor a sufficiently fast learner.

    Note that thoroughly answering each of our questions will help you reach the obvious conclusion earlier than otherwise. If the system can be made to work, it will mature much more rapdly. We can not be sure how much of our confusion is due to your english, your lack of thoroughness, or our slowness to learn. A diagram showing each working subsystem in a fully operating system would help.

    If you wish to do some arithmetic, maybe this will help.

    Vs = Vo + Ve*ln(Ms/(Ms-q*t)-9.81*t*sin(CA).

    Where: Vo = initial velocity in meters/sec;
    Ve = velocity of propellant in meters per second;
    q = propellant exhaust rate in kilograms/second
    Ms = KG of portion of system being supported by rocket thrust
    t = time interval in sec
    CA is the climb angle (from horizontal reference)
    Vs will be zero when the system is stationary and whatever value you wish when the system is in motion. You'll need to manipulate Ve and q to acquire the values for Vs that you wish to achieve. CA will vary around 90 degrees and constrain the design of your guidance system.

    Power required: ke/sec = .5*q*(ve)^2/(1 sec);

    The tensile strength of the rope-hose - f/ meter^2 = (supported KG times acceleration)/effective cross-section in square meters.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    496
    If the tubes are lifted up with rockets, and hovered there for days on end, how is that more efficient that just launching the rocket itself? If they are lifted and hove3red by a helicopter-like device, that will only work to an altitude of 4km, where there is sufficent air density to use them.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    472
    we are pumping fuel in hose. fuel of rockets will be pumped from hose real-time.
    Yavuzbasturk
    Now I see the principle
    What you have is a tethered rocket fuel supply system which when added to a series of different rockets and hoses will each lift its own weight and hose.
    this has a lot of merit and i have sent you a few ideas privately that if i disclose them here will jeapodise you patents,
    basically the info is to break down the ideas to two patents and get a provisional patent on the two ideas and you will have a year to file a full patent.

    as an experiment to evaluate the idea
    Use about 2 or 3 stage of chemical rockets to launch a wire upward each rocket stays on the ground till the first one is fired as soon as the wire is tightened then it electrically fires the second rocket and so on till all the rockets are firing upwards.
    The first rocket has to have a longer duration than the second third etc so that in the end the first rocket is at a great height while all the other rockets are still firing.
    In the end a very long wire say 2000 meters up will be deployed.
    This experiment will enable you to see if it will work.
    To enable calculations to be made that will show that is cheaper than single rocket.
    To get past the patent office you have to show that it can work ether in principle or experiment.

    i think if you call the 'cabins' --'lift platforms' people will understand a bit better

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    15
    i changed my idea.
    i got new patent on new idea.
    we are creating animation with 3dsmax with a friend, and we do some math on idea. after we finish animation of idea, i'll post to this forum details of idea.

    we built a magnetic catapult with 90 degree angle inside a mountain. length of catapult will be 2km or 3km.
    magnetic catapult will be in a vacuum tube so we can speed it up do 20km/s easily.
    we also carry a vacum tube to 30-40km height with hundreds of ballons.(90 degree angle) ballons can carry high mass up to 42km, so we can use ballons to carry parts of vacum tube.
    once all parts of tube is in air, with a mechanic system we clamp parts each other and we get 30-40km line of vacum tube. we clamp this tube to vacum tube of capatult which is inside a mountain, we vacuum air in tube and we
    get air friction free launch tube !
    there will be electric line on parts of vacum cubes. horizontal movement will be created with electric powered propollers. This is new idea and i patented this too.
    with 3km catapult and 2500G launching speed, we can send nuclear & chemical waste to splease in bullets safely with 12,135 km/s speed. Bullet will pass catapult in 0,494s and pass vacum tunel (40km) in 3,049s.
    if we cretae long catapult with on a side of mountain, we can send satellites and human witj low G too. i am trying to calculate necessary catapult designs for human & satellites.
    a basic picture is http://www.yablam.org/VakumTunel_A.gif

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,485
    You might like to check the Sky Ramp website too. They haven't gone in for your aerial extension but the ground based stuff is all there. As far as I can see the sky ramp option is low cost and low risk - an unusual combination.

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