Am I too old to be an astrophysicist?

[Chris L in NC]

I tried to call Connections day before yesterday but it was busy, which is unusual for an NPR talk show. (Also, I was looking at Bad Astronomy just the night before--truly proof of psychic influence) I am almost 37, and I have heard that if you haven't amounted to anything in astronomy by age 35, find something else. Well, how about if you're just getting started? I am taking first-year physics and calculus classes at North Carolina State University and maintaining A to high B averages. I am already a lawyer and like most lawyers I wish I wasn't, at least not full-time, so maybe I can be an astro-something. I am aware this transition has been made at least once, with good results. I am also trying to find time to help Dr. Kazmiercz Borkowski with a little SNR X-ray research, probably after classes end for the semester. We don't have an optical observatory but we can get to Chandra data like anybody else. I would be perfectly happy to take a PhD here but I see that at the big-name schools they have a high proportion of grads staying in the business, so I might like to try there.

What do you folks think? Any hope, or am I not using my spacetime well?

[Zathras]

First, welcome to the BB!

Second, you and I have a lot to talk about. I thought I was the only attorney who was planning to leave the law for science. I'm not sure if this is the best place to give out my personal experience, but here goes:

In short, I started along the science track (undergrad math and physics, grad school in astronomy) I decided to leave science (I did not finish the PhD, but had a masters and had finished all coursework and exams for PhD), I taught high school math for a year, and then went to law school. I have been an attorney for 3 years now, and I am truly sick of it. I am now planning to go back to grad school, this time for applied math, which I will start in fall 2003.

Now, you are a little older than me, but I don't think that should matter. I think that the quote about astronomers doing the most worthwhile stuff before they're 35 only applies to ones that went straight through. You will have to get an advanced degree, though, and so you will have to answer the following questions for yourself:

(1) I don't know your present lifestyle as an attorney, but you will probably have to get used to a much lower income. Is this feasible for you?

(2) Would you go full time or part time? I would definitely recommend full time if at all possible. I have found out that it is hard to straddle the two fields. What if you have a massive pile of discovery due at the end of an observation run? What if you have a hearing in Charlotte at the same time you are taking data in Chile? You might be able to do the undergrad part time, but once you go to grad school, anything other than full time will be very difficult.

(3) Don't you think you will miss the law? Just kidding! [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]

Any hope, or am I not using my spacetime well?

Any time not being an attorney is time well spent!

Good luck. Feel free to email me or post here with any questions.

[Russ]

Hello Chrisl:

Welcome to the mad and whacky world of the BABB.

You ask if you're too old to get a physics degree.

Answer: Of course not. You can go into financial ruin at any time in your life. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img] Just joking. The real answer is: You don't quit learning because you grow old. You grow old because you quit learning.

My advice: Get out there and start staying young.

Qoute: The saddest words of toung or pen are those that say it might have been.

[Wiley]

Welcome to the BABB, Chris.

Are you too old to become an astrophysicist? Definitely not. Go for it.

But ...
1.) Don't do anything drastic just yet. It sounds like you are just at the beginning of your technical career. Until you've taken advanced courses and have done advanced research, you won't know if you actually like it. Become an astrophysicist because you like it, not because you don't like being a lawyer.

2.) Choose your graduate school, especially for a Ph.D., by your advisor-to-be. You will be working very closely with this person for three or four years; make sure you like him (or her). From my experience, the professor-student relationship is the most important factor in determining the quality of the grad school experience.

[Chris L in NC]

Thanks everybody. More details in response to points brought up:

I don't totally hate being a lawyer; indeed, I really like getting in the law library and tackling a seemingly insuperable legal challenge, and then writing a readable and persuasive brief or memo, or finding ways to reduce peoples' taxes. Things I don't like include the ridiculous waste of time that most litigation work is; criminal defendants with their 8 x 10^6 versions of "I didn't do NOTHIN"; judges who think they're God; opposing counsel who thought "Devil's Advocate" was a training film; and the hurry-up-and-wait drill in airports and courtrooms. If I could stick to the appellate and tax world, I think I'd be happy to that extent--but it's not enough.

My interest in astro-stuff is longstanding and I have considered many other things to do, including studies in my other interests such as military and aviation history, or getting an MBA and being a management type, but I keep coming back to physics. I started in engineering as an undergrad and even took some majors' physics classes, but due to my own bad attitude the science and math thing didn't turn out well at the time, so I ended up with a degree in philosophy. Now much humbled, I have noticed that the more homework I do, the better the teacher gets. Friends and family have often commented that I ought to be a college professor, and I say I'd dearly love to do that, both teaching and research, but you do need that little ol' PhD thingie and some postdoc work too, I fancy. Good thing that's exactly what I'd love to do if at all possible.

I'm by no means burning bridges to the legal world, and in fact I'm actively building my practice. Here at NC State, I can fit legal work around my undergrad schedule without too much problem, and I've located an office within walking distance to the campus. Grad study would be another matter. We do have part-time physics grad students, including one who just qualified for Medicare. It could be done. We have five faculty in the astrophysics group so I'm sure I would get on well with one or more of them. Also, if I stay in the high-energy area, scheduling observing runs and the like are not a factor because all our data are from satellites anyway. But obviously I would like to study full time at some point, and if I went to another school, that's what I would do.

Income!? What income? I didn't exactly finish at the top of the law class, so no chance at the big firms, and many of my civil rights contingent cases went south. No good deed goes unpunished. The non-academic life is not an appealing prospect. I believe I can do without great wealth, although I suppose I should not knock it until I have tried it.

No matter what, I certainly do learn things all the time and will always do so. Even without formal education in astro, my house is out in the country and the skies are pretty dark, so I could do useful work as an amateur. But you know, the best part of my day is settling down in class to learn some math and science that I didn't know before, and then going to the library, time permitting, to learn some more. A minister friend of mine says to those who think they want to be ministers, don't do it unless you can't stand NOT to. Likewise, I just can't stand not learning science anymore.

[JS Princeton]

Make sure you get invovled in some research projects before too long. You may find that you like or loathe them. If that latter is the case, you'll find it hard to pursue astrophysics.

One thing is certain, there is far fewer "people problems" in these fields than there are in law. If that's what bugs you the most and you like getting all technical and nitpicky I think you'll make a fine research scientist.

Okay you professional guys..
I remember as a child of the apollo years watching the news folks interview Dr. Norbert Moonbuggy(AKA generic scientist)... chief scientist/mission planner etc. for the surveyor/viking /ranger mission at JPL.For me JPL was a magical place never imagining real people actually "go to work" there. Just how does one actually get there??( And I don't mean take I-5 north out of anaheim

_________________
here's to thge best of BA! Here-Here
Sanity,reason, lucidity and more than a little Dr.Carl Sagan.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: david bowman on 2002-11-25 13:21 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: david bowman on 2002-11-25 13:26 ]</font>

[Zathras]

On 2002-11-25 13:17, david bowman wrote:
Okay you professional guys..
I remember as a child of the apollo years watching the news folks interview Dr. Norbert Moonbuggy(AKA generic scientist)... chief scientist/mission planner etc. for the surveyor/viking /ranger mission at JPL.For me JPL was a magical place never imagining real people actually "go to work" there. Just how does one actually get there??( And I don't mean take I-5 north out of anaheim
. . .

You take the 5 to the 210, then exit . . .

Oh, sorry about that ! [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Check this link out:
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/pso/pt.cfm

[Wiley]

On 2002-11-25 00:11, Chris L in NC wrote:
... A minister friend of mine says to those who think they want to be ministers, don't do it unless you can't stand NOT to. Likewise, I just can't stand not learning science anymore.

It sounds like you will do just fine astrophysics. Keep us posted on your progress.

[Wiley]

On 2002-11-25 13:17, david bowman wrote:
Just how does one actually get there??( And I don't mean take I-5 north out of anaheim

Just apply like everybody else.

[img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[chascarrillo]

Just a note thanking everyone for their responses. I'm in a somewhat similar situation. Next year I'll be returning to college in my early 30's after completely blowing it my first go around (my strong math skills weren't well suited for majoring in drama; go figure), and I plan to get a degree in astronomy/physics, and hopefully end up on a PhD track. The advice you've given is a much needed encouragement!

[ToSeek]

On 2002-11-25 18:40, Wiley wrote:

On 2002-11-25 13:17, david bowman wrote:
Just how does one actually get there??( And I don't mean take I-5 north out of anaheim

Just apply like everybody else.

[img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

And keep in mind that you don't have to work for JPL to work at JPL. As with every NASA facility I'm familiar with, there are plenty of contractor positions available.

_________________
"... to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, Ulysses

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ToSeek on 2002-12-14 10:49 ]</font>

[Chuck]

You could practice interstellar law!

Or at least give legal advice to astronomers who might be setting themselves up for lawsuits for debunking star namers, lunar landings hoaxers, astrologers, and such.

Of course, your main focus would still be on astrophysics.

[Zathras]

Hey, I almost completely forgot: the attorney to astrophysicist path has been done before. This path was made by none other than Edwin Hubble!

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank...es/bahubb.html

See, there is still a glimmer of hope for us attorneys!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zathras on 2002-12-14 17:26 ]</font>

[Rodina]

Geeze. I'm yet another attorney - although my pastime extends largely to writing science fiction. I say go for it when it comes to pursuing a graduate education in physics and astrophysics. That's just terrific.

[tracer]

"It is sobering to think that when Mozart was my age, he had been dead for two years."

-- Tom Lehrer, when he was 37.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: tracer on 2002-12-17 17:05 ]</font>

[ljbrs]

Hello Chrisl:

Welcome to the mad and whacky world of the BABB.

You ask if you're too old to get a physics degree.

Answer: Of course not. You can go into financial ruin at any time in your life. Just joking. The real answer is: You don't quit learning because you grow old. You grow old because you quit learning.

My advice: Get out there and start staying young.

Qoute: The saddest words of toung or pen are those that say it might have been.

Nobody needs to work for a degree in order to learn. Even when you have earned a Ph.D., you still need to continue to learn. You do not need to attend university to learn, but attending university makes it a bit easier. When you are finished with the university/universities, just realize that your work has just begun. There are places called libraries (particularly university libraries) where you can find the appropriate materials.

Of course, there is the Internet, if you know where to look. Try Ned Wright's wonderful Cosmological Tutorial (plus other wonderful related information):

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm

In my own case, I have a well-stocked library at home. Too many books! So little time!

ljbrs [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]