Ftl Civilization Density Explained

[imported_Ziggy]

One of the more well known arguments against FTL travel is this: If FTL travel were possible, then civilizations that have mastered it and put it to good use, would be swarming in the Milky Way and we should have already ment ET. But consider this: What if the local space around Sol were populated with a super advanced alien civilization. Now, this civilization has FTL travel already (that's how they colonized the place so fast). Now see, these ETs are very friendly and curios. They know were hear, and they know compared to them, were very primitive. But they want to preserve our civilization. They know that if they came in direct contact with us, that the idea of aliens being real to the general public, would make our civilization self destruct. So there hiding from us and watching us. Why have'nt we picked up there radio singels? Easy, they use communication systems we can only speculate at or have'nt even imagined yet. There waiting for us to become mature (if we ever do). Or maybe other civilizations die out before they have the ability to go FTL. Or maybe they just think it's impossible. Can this be true?

[Sp1ke]

This sounds to me like an untestable hypothesis. If there is an intelligent race out there keeping an eye on us, they should be so well hidden or beyond our perception that we could never find them. So they might as well not be there

OTOH if they did accidentally reveal themselves, that would be significant. I'd like it to happen, just to challenge our perceptions of the universe and our place in it.

But I think it's a simpler proposition to assume that FTL travel is not possible. Then there's no hidden alien race and the current laws of physics remain unbroken. The lack of evidence of other races could simply be due to the large distances and long timescales inherent in the universe.

[zrice03]

I always wondered if it were possible that a civilization could become so advanced that they could manipulate the laws of physics themselves. Very likely not, but if it were, they could go faster than light (compared to our universe) yet not break the laws of physics.

[Spacemad]

Originally posted by Sp1ke@Apr 29 2004, 10:31 PM

But I think it's a simpler proposition to assume that FTL travel is not possible. Then there's no hidden alien race and the current laws of physics remain unbroken. The lack of evidence of other races could simply be due to the large distances and long timescales inherent in the universe.

I agree with you, I donīt think there are alien civilizations that are hiding themselves from us. I think that the Universe will become a human universe where our species will spread out across the planets that are habitable for our species. Like in Isaac Asimovīs stories where only humankind exists - but spread out on millions of planets. This will take hundreds of thousands of human generations - supposing we donīt commit collective suicide!

[ASEI]

There is another option: Other civilizations exist in whatever density, but can't go FTL, and so must spread out at slower than light rates to any other starsystems the feel like going to. And they don't like wasting their budgets on building the gigantic multi-gigawatt antennas necesary to broadcast their presence to other starsystems so that other nosy but equally budget constrained aliens can pick them up with cheap radio telescope arrays.

[QJones]

It's true, we could have huge, growing empires out there. In fact, my vision of humanity (barring FTL) is a cloud of colonies, expanding from Earth.

I remember one sci-fi game, an alien race created a servitor race, genetically altered to think of their creators as gods.

The masters sent out colony ships, slower than light, in all directions, with instructions to colonize and grow.

This way, the masters ensured that all the local space was occupied by servitors, preventing the unexpected arrival of competitors.

It would be much the same with us, except I expect us to start with probes and robots.

[Greg]

If there were a super-advanced civilization in our galaxy, then it is very likely that we would be aware of them by now. Any civilization that advanced would surely be generating a phenomenal amount of power which we likely would have spotted by now. It is very unlikely that we would not have found any trace of their activity already.
I think it is possible that a less advanced civilization exists out there, but likely they would have visited our planet by now. Once it achieved sublight interstellar travel, it would likely have colonized the galaxy in 50 million years, where as our galaxy has been around probably for 12 billion. It it more likely that intelligent civilizations do exist or have existed in our galaxy but are exotic and are not capable of space travel or met with a mishap or series of mishaps, possible of their own creation, resulting in their extinction. Another possibility is that an intelligent civilization exists that is has exotic biology compared to ours (ie thrive only on a planet with an atmosphere and surface similar to Titan's.)
Most likely we will beat the odds and achieve interstellar travel before anihilating ourselves or being anihilated by a nearby supernova, interaction with a rogue black hole, global warming, nuclear armageddon, or being consumed when our sun expands in its old age. Ultimately we may be able to genetically engineer lesser life forms on other worlds into intelligent ones and we may have something resembling the galactic empire in our own galaxy. As they say, often life imitates art.

[Josh]

This sounds like the (Star Trek) Prime Directive in effect, Ziggy.

The idea is that they don't want to be found and are hiding from us because we aren't ready (socially, technologically or otherwise) to know about them yet. It's a nice idea, a possible one but not probably in my humble opinion.

[GOURDHEAD]

Based on somewhat immature concepts of how to achieve interstellar travel, it is highly probable that propellant exhaust velocities from interstellar vehicles will be large fractions of light speed, say 0.9 to 0.99999c. If such exhaust particles should intercept the earth, we would see them as cosmic rays which we have observed. Hence maybe we have detected them unknowingly.

Also, signal polarization modulation may be the most noise free method of accurately transmitting information through this rather noisy universe and I'm not aware of the state of our polarization demodulation technology. Can anyone help?

[GOURDHEAD]

Continuing from my last post in this thread, have we cosmic ray data suggesting improbable variations as a function of time and/or direction? My guess is that we are not sufficiently stocked with detectors. Are there secondary radio frequency effects initiated by the arrival of primaries that are sufficiently distinguishable to support a global survey?

[SkyBoard]

I always wondered if it were possible that a civilization could become so advanced that they could manipulate the laws of physics themselves. Very likely not, but if it were, they could go faster than light (compared to our universe) yet not break the laws of physics.

I agree with you, I donīt think there are alien civilizations that are hiding themselves from us. I think that the Universe will become a human universe where our species will spread out across the planets that are habitable for our species. Like in Isaac Asimovīs stories where only humankind exists - but spread out on millions of planets. This will take hundreds of thousands of human generations - supposing we donīt commit collective suicide!

I'd have to agree with both of these assessments. But I get my assurance from a different source: A. C. Clarke.

[Spacemad]

Originally posted by ASEI@May 3 2004, 02:22 AM
There is another option: Other civilizations exist in whatever density, but can't go FTL, and so must spread out at slower than light rates to any other starsystems the feel like going to.

It's true, we could have huge, growing empires out there. In fact, my vision of humanity (barring FTL) is a cloud of colonies, expanding from Earth.

QJones Posted on May 4 2004, 10:32 PM

I think this is the most probable scenario for the human race in the next couple of centuries - barring any unforeseen (unforeseeable?) "accidents". Although there are people who think they know the answer to FTL it will take centuries before we are technologically, politically, socially & economically ready to implement it.

Even in the case of us eventually reaching FTL propulsion systems we most likely spread out in a rough, circular motion, first setting up colonies on the habitable planets closest to Earth & then slowly pushing out further & further afield.

[TYpe3_civi]

Of course there is life in the Universe. There are tens of thousands even maybe millions of super intelligent life forms in the universe. And if the multi-Universe theory is true then there are billions of intelligent life forms out there. Not to mentaion trillions of non- intelligent life forms. Our universe may only be a bubble in an ocean of thousands of universes inbetween these universes is hyperspace.
To me there is a 90% chance of life here in our own solar system!! Also the ability to make life in our solar system.(terraforming). The most likely body that i think would harbour life would be one of Jupiters own Galilaean moons. Europa is thought to have a liquid ocean many feet below its smooth icy surface. Why does this ocean not freeze you might ask. Well it is being heated by gravitational heating from Jupiters strong gravitational strength.
And if theres water theres probably life. And also two planets with terraforming potential Venus and Mars to me Venus is more reliable. You can argue on that one anytime you would like.

[snabald]

This got me thinking, what would something traveling faster than light look like? Could you even see it?

Also, maybe we have already seen evidence of a super advanced civilization, only we don't realize it for what it is.

[Ara Pacis]

What's the oldest thread that has ever been resurrected?

[Candy]

What's the oldest thread that has ever been resurrected?

[Swift]

Of course there is life in the Universe. There are tens of thousands even maybe millions of super intelligent life forms in the universe.

First, welcome to BAUT TYpe3_civi.

Second, do you have any evidence for these tens of thousands of super intelligent life forms? It is a nice idea, but some proof would be good.

[jkmccrann]

What's the oldest thread that has ever been resurrected?

No, this doesn't even come close. There's a thread round somewhere that hasn't been posted to since 1970.
Oldest Thread

As for advanced alien civilisations wanting to leave us alone so that they can observe how we develop. I doubt it. Any alien civilisation that has advanced technologically to that level has surely had to come through some form of competitive pressures, perhaps from other species, and I find it hard to take that they'd be happy to sit back and watch us when its possible we could at some point in the future develop into some sort of threat. Why take the risk that thousands of years of evolution and development have taught them is simply not worth it?

[Joff]

To me there is a 90% chance of life here in our own solar system!!

Only 90%? So where exactly are you tapping into the internet from, my robot friend? and welcome to BAUT, it's a pleasure to have even non-lifeforms here.

[Enzp]

Welcome to BAUT TYpe3. May I suggest reading through the page after page after page of the How Many Intelligent Lifeforms thread. Pretty much everything you proclaimed has been discussed at great length there.

Just how would you go about "terraforming" Venus? It would be a real challenge since it is hot enough there to melt lead, and then the sulphuric acid rain might be a turn off even if we managed to chill the place.

[Candy]

No, this doesn't even come close. There's a thread round somewhere that hasn't been posted to since 1970.
Oldest Thread

You forgot the one's just below it, December 31, 1969.

[Van Rijn]

Yep, the old mainframe teletype and dumb terminal BAUT days. And the records from the BAUT telegraph days are, I fear, long gone.

[jkmccrann]

You forgot the one's just below it, December 31, 1969.

True, but you'll have trouble posting to that thread given its locked!

[eburacum45]

Welcome to BAUT TYpe3. May I suggest reading through the page after page after page of the How Many Intelligent Lifeforms thread. Pretty much everything you proclaimed has been discussed at great length there.

Just how would you go about "terraforming" Venus? It would be a real challenge since it is hot enough there to melt lead, and then the sulphuric acid rain might be a turn off even if we managed to chill the place.

Did someone ask about terraforming Venus?

[Bobunf]

Any alien civilisation that has advanced technologically to that level has surely had to come through some form of competitive pressures, perhaps from other species, and I find it hard to take that they'd be happy to sit back and watch us when its possible we could at some point in the future develop into some sort of threat. Why take the risk that thousands of years of evolution and development have taught them is simply not worth it?

I don’t really think a civilization several thousand years more technologically advanced would be concerned about any threat from us.

Suppose, for instance, that Spirit or Opportunity happened upon a civilization of creatures at a technological level equivalent to the Sumerians about 5,000 years ago in Mesopotamia. Writing for them is a recent and not well-developed invention. They have no understanding of the shape, size or content of Mars, let alone the Solar System or the Universe.

They have no idea that the Earth is a planet like theirs, little understanding of medicine, physics, mathematics, chemistry, geology, biology, economics, a poor grasp of the political and social processes needed to effectively manage complex societies, and a huge host of other things we’ve struggled to master over the last 5,000 years.

They don’t have the Germ Theory of Disease, nor do they know how to set bones. Metalworking in soft metals is in its infancy. The only artificial light is from hearth fires, torches and oil lamps. Candles for them are 3,000 years in the future.

What would our reaction be?

I would suggest a huge curiosity and frantic eagerness. Funding for Mars exploration would increase, could I say, astronomically. Academics and other scientists would be ecstatic, rapturous, overjoyed, madly eager and ablaze to do “further research.”

On television, at least for awhile, one would hear, “The most important discovery in the history of our species,” and other such histrionic comments.

For how long would we forebear letting them know we are around? Imagine the arguments, “It is extremely critical that we have samples of their DNA or whatever it is they use,” “We must learn their language,” “We have to tell them not to treat wounds with manure.” And what reactions would pictures of the starving alien babies produce, complete with anthropomorphically simulated pitiful wailing?

How long would it be before FEMA trailers were arriving?

Bad example; it might be a very long time.

I think the most remote concern would have to do with any threat they might pose, except inadvertent biological contamination. And that would work both ways.

Bob