A TREE ...

[Chook]

I was meditating, the other day, on (of all things) trees;
and the words of the old song was brought to mind -

“I think that I will never see
a poem lovely as a tree.”

It can recognise gravity, and light;
(bend a seedling over on its side, and it bends up)

It can sense an injury, and can heal itself;

Its roots can smell nourishment and grow towards it;
(my dad built a compost box, 200 yards away from a tree,
and filled it with raw materials and crap for compost.
Three months after he opened the box to see how it was
going and it was absolutely full of roots from the tree.)

It can feel temperature, and changes tack during seasons;

It can hear music and words (according to the Pecan Nut Farm and Prince Charles);

Some carnivorous plants can feel an insect within its grasp, and spring its trap.

Sooooo – it must have a “BRAIN and nervous system”.!
Where is it?

[Faulkner]

I think all these things can be explained in the way the plant cells react chemically with their immediate environment. All the coordination of activity happens inside the nucleus of the cell.

Either that, or plants have souls & are telepathic.

[damienpaul]

Adds a twist to eating a fruit salad...

[Faulkner]

Sorry to double-post, just want to add a comment about plants' seeming responsiveness to certain types of music (eg classical Mozart etc)... I wonder if the experimenter was a Mozart fan themselves? Would a Mozart-loving scientist admit that plants seem to thrive while bombarded with heavy metal, for instance? I distrust these experimental conclusions.

[Faulkner]

Originally posted by damienpaul@Mar 19 2004, 09:18 AM
Adds a twist to eating a fruit salad...

Murderer!!!

[Chook]

Quote Faulkner:
"I think all these things can be explained in the way the plant cells react chemically with their immediate environment."

Thanks for that thought.

But take any of the observed reactions to stumuli - say a seedling, realizing it's fallen on its side - swings up towards the light.

In your hypothesis - some of the plant cells must sense that the the axis of its stem is not vertical so sends a message to a particular lower section of its stem to grow faster underneath in order to bend itself vertically (or towards the light) until the correction is just right. So there must be a system of recognition, correction and monitoring within different sections of the plant.

A similar monitoring would have to take place for other stimuli, such as temperature and degree-of-light which would effect the tree/plant to flower or seed or, in some cases, enlarge the leaf-area to catch more sun.

I guess what I am trying to say, Faulkner, is that stumuli causes a reation in distal areas of tree/plant which must mean that internal communication would be necessary somehow within the tree/plant (not only to its immediate environment).

[Spacemad]

Communications within any living organism are essential if it is to survive. Take your example of a seedling fallen on its side, Chook.

But take any of the observed reactions to stimuli - say a seedling, realising it's fallen on its side - swings up towards the light.

Chemical reactions take place within the plants cells whereby chemical messengers take their messages to different parts of the cell resulting in the plant righting itself.

There have been scientific experiments in which the way plants react to different sounds were carried out. The same types of plants were isolated & subjected to sessions of different types of music (from Classical Music to Heavy Metal) to see if they had any influence on their growth. It was found that the plants subjected to Classical Music grew much better than those subjected to Heavy Metal. (Let each one draw their own conclusions&#33

In other experiments scientists attached electrodes to the tip of a leaf, there was a very marked reaction when another leaf was cut with scissors - but the most amazing thing about these experiments was that other plants in the same room reacted in a similar way to the one that was cut without having been cut themselves!

The scientists came to the conclusion that communication somehow took place among the plants in the room (plants are known to emit chemical signals into the air to warn one another of the attacks of predators (sap sucking insects) so that they can mount their defences) & the other plants somehow "saw" what was about to happen & reacted with "fear"!

[Chook]

Quote Spacemaid:
"Chemical reactions take place within the plants cells whereby chemical messengers take their messages to different parts of the cell resulting in the plant righting itself."

Thanks for your information. Absolutely fascinating stuff about the plants communicating together (like baboons?).

Getting back to communications within the tree/plant - are you suggesting that certain cells sense a stimulation, transmits the appropriate information to another area, chain-like, cell-by-cell, and the recipient cells react accordingly?

Any further information would be appreciated, please.

In another topic I've reported that the largest Pecan Nut Farm in the world (certainly in the Southern Hemisphere), 50kms East of Moree NSW Australia, reportedly has gone to the expense of installing weatherproof loudspeakers throughout a new area of extention and plays classical music to its treelings 24/7 to stimulate robust growth. So there must be something in it for them to go to the expense of doing that.

In my childhood it was common practice to scorch the bottom of cut flower-stems in a flame to seal in the sap - the blooms were supposed to last longer that way. But my mum would never do it because "It would hurt them." We used to laugh at mum saying that - but maybe there is some truth in her insight. <_<

[Spacemad]

Getting back to communications within the tree/plant - are you suggesting that certain cells sense a stimulation, transmits the appropriate information to another area, chain-like, cell-by-cell, and the recipient cells react accordingly?

Yes, you&#39;ve got the gist of what I was trying to say in the least possible space&#33; Just as within our own bodies chemical messengers transfer information from one cell to the next, but it all happens in a few seconds & the results can be seen in a very short time&#33; It all depends on how "woody" a plant is. Plants that have very soft stems & practically do not make woody stems respond the quickest.

Here in Europe we have a plant that in England we call "Busy Lizzie" (Impatiens, its botanical name, in case in Australia you know them by a different name to us). Well, its a very soft plant & requires quite a lot of water so when it gets a bit dry it begins to wilt & it can be quite dramatic but as soon as you water it again you can, literally, see the leaves perk up again & the stems right themselves, right before your very eyes&#33;&#33;&#33;

In another topic I&#39;ve reported that the largest Pecan Nut Farm in the world (certainly in the Southern Hemisphere), 50kms East of Moree NSW Australia, reportedly has gone to the expense of installing weatherproof loudspeakers throughout a new area of extention and plays classical music to its treelings 24/7 to stimulate robust growth. So there must be something in it for them to go to the expense of doing that.

I know that many people laugh at the idea but it has been scientifically demonstrated & as you say that farm wouldn´t have gone to that great expense if they weren´t totally convinced of the truth of the matter&#33;

In my childhood it was common practise to scorch the bottom of cut flower-stems in a flame to seal in the sap - the blooms were supposed to last longer that way. But my mum would never do it because "It would hurt them." We used to laugh at mum saying that - but maybe there is some truth in her insight.

I´ve heard & read that you can scorch the cut end of plants that produce a white, milky like sap to seal it but not on other plants. As to hurting them - they´ve already been hurt just by cutting them off their mother plant&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; I doubt if a little more will make much, if any, difference&#33; I doubt that studies on cut flowers have ever been made to determine whether or not they experience pain or further distress after cutting&#33; :unsure:

[Chook]

Spacemad - In a tree/plant is this transmission of stimuli-information cell-to-cell of a chemical, or of an electrical nature (please forgive my basic ignorance of these matters)?

The reason why I am asking is that I presume that the equivalent function in animals would be electrical, whilst (I am confirming) it is chemical in plants.

It is interesting that trees/plants have "ears" and feelings; and can sense injury and the direction of nourishment etc .... without the same specialised organs that animals have. Or do they? <_<

[Chook]

Just received an e-mail from a doctor friend of mine -
" ..... Incidentally, there was a banana grower in Korora who used to play different types of music to his tomatoes and found they had bigger fruit with Mozart type music. They did not like heavy metal so they MUST have intelligence."

Must be something in it&#33;

[Spacemad]

Originally posted by Chook@Mar 22 2004, 01:08 AM
Spacemad - In a tree/plant is this transmission of stimuli-information cell-to-cell of a chemical, or of an electrical nature (please forgive my basic ignorance of these matters)?

I think you will find that most of the transmissions in plants are of a chemical nature, though I wouldn´t discard electrical impulses - otherwise how would the scientists be able to use electrodes on their leaves? Though I´m not a biologist & have never studied biology but what I know of plants is what I have read over 50 years & my interest in growing them as a hobby. I find most scientific topics of great interest but when they coincide with things I really like then my interest is doubled. Therefore when they publish results of investigation into plant behaviour in space (or on Earth but space related) my "ears" prick up. :P

You needn´t worry about "your ignorance" we can´t all know everything about everything, can we? If I can be of help to you you need only ask & I will try to reply out of what I know, you may even stimulate me to search for the answers if I don´t know them&#33; That way we will both benefit & - who knows - someone else who reads our posts might benefit too&#33;

The reason why I am asking is that I presume that the equivalent function in animals would be electrical, whilst (I am confirming) it is chemical in plants.

You will find that in animal life it is both chemical & electrical. Both interact & one without the other wouldn´t work.

[Chook]

Thanks for your information Spacemad.
I am acquainted with a PhD Botanist who has expressed interest in the feedback from this Topic - so when I get their e-mail address we can get a response from her.

[QJones]

Here&#39;s one for you:

Most trees don&#39;t die of old age. It fact, they don&#39;t show age-related senescence. Sure, they get older, and they get bigger, but (unlike us) they don&#39;t systematically fall apart due to aging.

Sure, the older they are, the more likely they are to contract a disease. The older they are, the more likely they&#39;ll be parasitized. In fact, most trees die because they get too big and get pushed over. They don&#39;t actually die of old age.

The sea turtle seems to be similar. Sure, an old sea turtle is less hearty than a mature one. But, it&#39;s not due to aging, it&#39;s due to age-related wear-and-tear. An old turtle is more likely to have a cracked shell, not because it&#39;s older, but because an old turtle is more likely to have been bitten by a shark.

Trees and turtles still have a life-expectancy. There&#39;s a %age chance that they&#39;ll die in any given year. And that averages out to a life-expectancy. Neat huh?

[Chook]

Yep&#33; Funny thing that - "Slow Movers" live longer.

When I was I kid I expected super-athletes to live for yonks - then I subscribed to Newsweek and started reading the Milestones page - and I noticed that they died earlier than others. In fact, it seemed, writers and poets and classical musicians and accountants lived longer than the average.

And see how slow old yellow-crested cockies move, and turtles - who can live 500 years .

Thanks for that.

[jimmy]

You know, the giant Sequoias of California live for many hundreds of years too&#33;

[Faulkner]

Chook, you should see the "petrified forest" down south of Perth&#33; It&#39;s dead...but alive...just like ZOMBIES&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#3 3;&#33;&#33;

When I was I kid I expected super-athletes to live for yonks - then I subscribed to Newsweek and started reading the Milestones page - and I noticed that they died earlier than others. In fact, it seemed, writers and poets and classical musicians and accountants lived longer than the average.

Chook, I simply don&#39;t trust your reporting of the facts, brother. You simply CAN NOT lump "accountants" in with musos & writers etc...poets perhaps (cos I hate poetry)...but definitely not musos or writers&#33;&#33;&#33; :P Ha ha... But I agree totally about athletes - they&#39;re stupid idiots who kill themselves with heart attacks & strokes etc...too much exertion...&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

By the way, I still don&#39;t agree with the "heavy metal"/"Mozart" debate... Personally, I think heavy metal is very close to classical music. Personally, I like rock&#39;n&#39;roll. (No, Chook, I hate "punk"&#33. Have they subjected plants to rock&#39;n&#39;roll yet??? (My mullies thrive on it, pal&#33;&#33;&#33; :P )

[Chook]

What I was getting at, Faulding, was that it appears that, generally, people who don&#39;t (over-) exert themselves live longer than the "super-fit".

A true story:
I knew a family of four ... father about 45 who had suffered a massive heart attack and was limited to a wheel-chair. This bloke&#39;s missus was a big, strong woman who wheeled her husband around everywhere, fed him, did everything.

I left Australia for a few years, came back and asked somebody had this bloke&#39;s missus remarried. It turned out that SHE died, the bloke remarried and had another four kids.

Can ya learn anything from this? <_<

[Faulkner]

Chook mate, if that&#39;s a true story, believe me, I&#39;ve got nothing left to learn...

(PS: "Faulding"??)

[Chook]

(Faulding) - sorry about that Faulkner :unsure:

[Faulkner]

You&#39;re forgiven.

Just don&#39;t do it again&#33;

[Spacemad]

By the way, I still don&#39;t agree with the "heavy metal"/"Mozart" debate... Personally, I think heavy metal is very close to classical music. Personally, I like rock&#39;n&#39;roll. (No, Chook, I hate "punk"&#33. Have they subjected plants to rock&#39;n&#39;roll yet??? (My mullies thrive on it, pal&#33;&#33;&#33; )

Faulkner Posted on Mar 25 2004, 09:41 AM

Although some people may not agree with the debate on the types of music that plants have been subjected to & their reaction to it, I don´t think they should question the experimenters taste for music & that this influences their judgement. Besides several investigations have been held & all come up with similar results. I don´t know of any links to sites that publish information on these investigations but if anybody does I would like to visit them myself.

Excuse my ignorance, Faulkner, but what are "mullies"? I suspect they are some kind of plant but I don´t know which.

It is curious that some trees can live for centuries. In the Canary Islands there is a tree that was living there before Christopher Columbus stopped at the islands on his way to discover America&#33; I have seen pictures of it & it is now a protected "monument"

[QJones]

Well, one reason for aging is metabolism-related damage. Athletes tend to take good care of their body, but tend to wear it out.

It&#39;s like having a car. Athletes change the oil and check the tires regularly, unlike others who only change the oil when the light comes on. However, athletes put way more kilometers on their car/body every year. They get more total distance out of their body, but have less time.

[Chook]

Some time ago I read about a tree, I think located in a remote desert area of Australia, that was reported to be over 3,000 years old (3,002 by now lol).

So lack of water doesn&#39;t seem to affect this type of tree anyway. It would be interesting to discover if their root-system responds to drought by burrowing down deeper than trees with an adequate supply of water. (After 3,000 years&#33;?)

Maybe its like a human that lives longer if they don&#39;t over-eat. I remember my grandma recommending me to always leave the table feeling as if I could eat another slice of bread. She lived to a ripe old age. (Awful expression&#33

Another thought - trees must have a circulation for their blood (sap) to circulate and supply nourishment around its body. Surely (talking about longivity) it must suffer the same dangers as animals with deposits lining its vessels - maybe even suffer narrowing, and even angina?? :unsure:

I learned karati with a Japanese in Vienna - and they endow trees with Spirit and Soul, feelings and "knowledge". (I didn&#39;t get into it too much because, at the time, I thought he was a bit "way out") But they must have a good reason for believing this stuff, whatever it is. (Maybe if we are naughty we&#39;ll come back as a tree. :P )

[zephyr46]

Of course a plant will grow better if you play Motzart, if you play guns and roses, the thing is more likly going to go and get a tattoo and start smoking dope, or maybe licking toads, and stayin out all night and partying. Not that a plant shouldn&#39;t be allowed to make those decisions for itself. Some plant can look after themselves, others are going to spred their pollen where-ever they can.

I find it sad that in low pressure, plants respond as if in drought. Maybe they need some dope or rock music to inspire the will to rock on.

Hmm

I&#39;ve stopped eating meat, and have often come to this quandry, plants, including fruit are alive as well.

What is the answer? Geophagia? I know salt isn&#39;t so good for you, and the point of eating food is taste, or we would all be eating clay, no need to hunt, so we would probably be trees&#33;

Chook, you want to meditate on the galactic center some?

[Chook]

Zephyr46:
After I stopped laughing I must say I admired your essay.

Maybe there is some value in pondering the thought that vegetation has a "soul" (for want of a better word) of its own. If only we knew.

Because "vegetation" is so utilitarian to man - providing food, medicines, paper, dye, housing, flooring, furniture, simple weapons, works of art, etc. - perhaps the Anthropic Principle may apply to it as well as to the universe - i.e. vegetation has been designed to react and adjust to adversities for the sole reason of surviving in order to continue helping us humans.

What do you think? <_<

[zephyr46]

Yeah, I&#39;ve actually thought alot about it chook. It&#39;s kinda like, well if you grow mullies, I&#39;m sure you&#39;ve heard the story about growing the best s--t with your own s--t ??

Well, in a bizzare way, eating friut is kinda like eating fetuses, only, we are closer to communicating with cows that Huon Pine &#33;

It&#39;s a shame we can&#39;t talk to trees. As far as I am aware they take out two catagories on the tree of life. The largest and the Oldest living organisms on earth.

Even now. We build houses, furnature, find drugs food, and depend on for rain and Air.

I love Ents &#33;

My wyzaard sites, explore Ogham ents gnomes andfaries, for interested parties