Warp Drive Now?!

[imported_Ziggy]

I was on the net one day checking out some websites. With me being a Star Wars and Star Trek fan, I some how stummbled into a website about the Warp Drive. After looking at some of the articles, I realilized something incretible. Most of the articles I read, and from what I know about interstellar travel, where all pointing to a Warp Drive, as fast as those in Star Trek, possible withen the next 50 to 100 years ! Now I don't know if just got a little too excited or something, but is there even a remote possiblity of humans developing a Warp Drive withen the near future? Go ahead and read it yourself, you'll have to type into your search engine "Warp Drive Principal", and then click on Archives of Warp Drive News or something like that, it should be near the top of the search engine finds.



Earth is the cradle of humanity, but one cannot live in the cradle forever"

-Konstantin Tsiolkovsky, 1895

[GOURDHEAD]

My guess is that we'll never achieve velocities greater than that of light. Even if we figured out how, we may not want to. Both navigation and obstacle avoidance at > light velocity are extremely difficult, not to mention the power required. Forget wormholes and hyperdimensional tunneling.

[Matthew]

First we have to learn how to go faster light, which would probably start with sending light faster than light in a vacuum, not sending the enterprise.

50 to 100 years is a bit ambitiiuos, but not impossible, we just need a massive technological breakthrough.

[kashi]

I found this extremely interesting article on the subject:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/364496.stm

BBC news is a trustworthy source to. At this stage, it's all theoretical.

[Faulkner]

Faster-than-light spaceships??

They already got 'em!!!

If someone's thought up the theory & done the mathematics...then you can be 100% certain someone else with access to "Black Project" funding has built the damn thing!

[damienpaul]

Okay, what is black project funding and have they really gone ahead and done it? (i aplogise if this is a silly question) also where can I get some?

It seems very theoretical at this stage.

[Faulkner]

I was being tongue-in-cheek. But I'm honestly convinced there are R&D scientists out there, employed by the government/military, who are "pushing the envelope" in the laboratory with research that we (as "ordinary" human beings) won't hear the light of for decades...if at all. Just look at all the secret research being conducted in "anti-gravity" by British Aerospace, the USAF, etc etc... Why so secretive? I thought the Cold War was over!?

Yes, I was being tongue-in-cheek...but sheesh, nothing would surprise me. I can't believe that the scientific research we read about today is the end-all/be-all of what REAL research is being conducted in certain labs around the world today!

Does anybody doubt that the powers-that-be know a great deal more than what we'll ever read in a scientific journal??

Or am I just a paranoiac???

[Spacemad]

Iīve been a great fan of the Star Trek series since the 60īs & I still like to see the spin-off series set in the Star Trek universe, especially Voyager!

Nevertheless I belive myself to be practical & - although I would dearly like to belive it - FTL travel is very unlikely to take place - at the very least not in the next few generations of our world. How I would love to live in Star Trekīs universe & be able to explore "Strange new worlds" together with Captain Janeway, who I admire as much - if not more -than Captain Kirk!

[Spacemad]

As you suggested, Ziggy, I took a look at the website & ,apart from the pain it produced in my eyes, & found it very intersting. I donīt have the time to follow them up now but the extracts on the pricipal page surprised me - I didnīt realise that people were doing true investigation into the possiblity of Warp Drive! I thought it was only the stuff of Science Fiction & that nobody took it seriously. I shall have to have a longer look at those pages on Warp Drive!

[Sphinx]

I just wanted to throw out there that the document on the BBC website [b]dose not say that people were investigating the possibility. One person, utilizing the mathematical concepts of this Miguel Alcubierre person along with Einstein's theory of general relativity and special relativity to express the limited possible theory of such a thing called a "Warp Drive" which in turn would also be a "time machine."

THIS IS NOT THE ADVANCEMENT OF TECHNOLOGY BUT RATHER THE ADVANCEMENT OF A NUMBER OF SCIENTIFIC THEORIES/PRINCIPLES[B]

What claims like this do is to pave the ways for the manisfestation of other theories which leads to hypothises. Personally, I think it's similar to Davinchi's drawing of the helicopter in the 1500's (don't know my history very well so please correct me on the details)

No offense, and I know that I'm just a skeptic, but many of you guys seem alittle excited about it. Especially the claim that they probably already have it. Makes a great story but not very likely. Let me explain why.

It would seem illogical to me that the government would have all this technology that "they're waiting decades to release or are possibly never going to release" when you look at the leading institutes of technology around the world, who by the way have some of the most intelligent and acredited group of peoples, and compare what they're doing to some of the so-called "black project" claims, or to the possibility of them hiding all this technology. And on a second note, in this digitized information age when essential nothing is off limits and can be distributed essentially as fast as it is generated, that once ground breaking technology is made, it is reviewed, published, disected, consumed and then regurjitated about as fast as it was put out!!! And one more note, when we build space stations, or make claims like "sending man back to the moon and then onward to mars...," in medical advancements and [I]especial[I] in times of war that we would not be using the most sophisticated technilogical developments known to man!! For these 3 reasons it would seem to me that the only secret government technologies we wont here about are either illegal or have to do with spying which is becoming obsulete with the advancement of Satelite technology. So, it's illogical.

2 more notes: 1) the market is what drives technology (example is the aircar.....no market, no air car....petroleum company wins....get a market, we all drive cars powered by air.) It's called a minicat if you're interested in getting a better example of market driven technology. 2) I know I'm a skeptic so rebutle's are accepted and also just want to note I'm not trying to stomp on anyone's enthusiams as I am excited about the possibility of faster than light travel as well

[Faulkner]

Good points, Sphinx. I have in fact wondered just how difficult it would be to keep a scientific or technological breakthrough hidden from public view. EXTREMELY difficult I would guess...but yet it happens, just look at stealth technology in military aircraft...the atom bomb...radar...decades-old, but only fairly recently disseminated amongst the public awareness.

It is not so much the "science" that I hypothesized was being kept secret...but the "technology" that develops from it. For example, harking back to "anti-gravity" research...it is by no means "crackpot" to suggest that there are real scientific principles behind the idea...an article in Popular Mechanics in fact reported some NASA scientists who had duplicated Podkletnov's famous experiment - with concrete results. The foundations are there...and we know that there are certain groups researching this, but keeping it under wraps (you can look up their websites, eg "Project Greenglow").

My point was...I was wondering just how far these groups' research has progressed? And would we ever find out? Or would it remain militarily classified?

And what ELSE might they be up to in their secret labs? Do we wanna know?

Sure, you'd think whatever "secret government research" is being conducted would be inadvertantly stumbled upon by some whiz-kid at MIT or somewhere...but you must remember the stifling conservatism at these institutions...and the editorial censorship that goes on in the "peer-group" journal scene...If I suggested to my professor that I'd like to do my doctorate on anti-gravity, I'd probably be kicked out of uni. "Acceptable" research lies across a very narrow & conservative spectrum. I don't think imagination is encouraged to any great extent.

But hell...maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree???

[withaGee]

Without developing inertial dampening along with warp capability, any FTL flight (even a 25%c flight) will be a one-way trip for its passengers. They'll have to be scraped off the aft bulkhead at their destination if nothing's done to counteract acceleration effects. Just a thought.

G

[Adair45]

Ok I read all this about warp travel
I would like to adress my thoery of time travel at this point. We all know that there is a time change of a full day at the, I think it is called the international date line. Ok heres my theory if you go one way and cross the line you go a day ahead or jump from say January 29th to January 30th by crossing the line. If you were to cross the line the opposite way you go back a day. January 29th you cross the line and go back to January 28th. If a vehicle could travel fast enough, and it probably would have to be an aircraft because the is water involved in this trip, around the world to this point faster than the world has a chance to spin through the cycle of one day then the person in the aircraft when they cross that same line would be able to go back another day so in fact be back 2 days before the day they began the trip. If they continued to make this same trip around the globe faster than a day passes then they could go back in time if they had enough energy or fuel to keep the aircraft running, wouldn't they?
BTW my surname is Newton B)

[Sphinx]

very cool article of anti-gravity Faulkner. I hope it works. It would start a whole new revolution. And you have a very good conrasting view to this technilogical secrecy thing. I'm sure, as you've pointed out that the application of technological theories is/can be largely political. The theories may be known but the application of those theories probably wouldn't be that difficult to keep sheathed. Your example of stealth material, the atom bomb, etc. are very convincing and have just made my life alot more complicate. I'm starting to get paranoid :unsure: h34r:

A personal question: Why do you suggest the conservatism at your school? That would seem alarming to me. And why the big taboo about suggesting a thesis on "Anti-gravity?" I would tend to think that dortorets in any field of science would be open to any scope of possible discussion, wether fessible or not, so long as it were conducted in a proper manner. Enlighten me....

[Faulkner]

just made my life alot more complicate. I'm starting to get paranoid

I'm sorry for turning your rose-coloured glasses into a nasty shade of BROWN, Sphinx!! Ha ha :P

No, I'm not at uni studying astrophysics or anything. Just from what I've read, universities are very conservative. There is a definite scientific "Establishment" that resists anything new or innovative. But hell, that may be changing...?

The article I linked above makes mention of Russian scientist Podkletnov getting totally blacklisted by journals/institutions etc simply because he demonstrated a weight-reduction anomaly with regard to objects suspended over a charged spinning superconductor...and then he had the AUDACITY to try & publish an article about it!!! God forbid!!!

Back to topic...Interesting on the NASA "Warp Drive When?" website, there is a survey asking "When do YOU think warp travel will be achieved?" and gives several alternatives, such as, 10 years, 50 years, 100 years, never...or "Now, they've already got it!".... (I ticked "Now", but now I'm seeing men in black suits and Raybans following me in the street??) h34r:

[pasiphae_spirit]

i think its possible within the next 100 to 200 years cause technolgy is improving & going at an amazingly fast rate, as well as science, example look at DNA, cell phones, airplanes, all made possible which wasn't available the last 100 years or so.

[Sphinx]

:P :blink: <_< thats funny. I&#39;m compelled to watch conspiracy theory again.

[Sphinx]

This topic has turned from the possibility of FTL travel to how/why the government hide new technology....maybe a forum should be started.....a secret forum h34r: Don&#39;t tell anyone...

[Faulkner]

There already IS a secret forum&#33;...but you prob&#39;ly aren&#39;t aware of it...

I don&#39;t think the topic shifted too much... My point was Q:"Warp Drive When?"... A:"Prob&#39;ly a lot sooner than you think (or will ever know)"...

Maybe I&#39;m right, maybe I&#39;m wrong...who cares...

[Sphinx]

essentually, not enough is known to make any finite conclusion as to the time frame for the creation of FTL flight; a.k.a. warp drive. Well, I&#39;m done with this forum then :blink: :P

[Galaxy dweller]

Ziggy: There is an interesting book by Lawrence Krauss "The Physics of Star Trek". It describes serious scientific approach to realizing all the Star Trek achievements including faster than the speed of light travel, teletransportation, etc. It may sound surprising but the book is quite optimistic.

Now one more quotation from Konstantin Tsiolkovsky:
"The humanity will not stay on the Earth forever, but in pursuit of light and space it will first timidly peer beyond the Earth&#39;s atmosphere and then will conquer the whole of the Solar system."

[eggplant]

Adair, if you travel around the world so fast that you pass the Intl&#39; date line ten times in one day, it&#39;s still that day. Understand? I merely saw you fly over ten times...

[Garry Murphy]

About 20 years ago , did you think that you would be able to talk to somebody on a golf course in Ireland from a cafe in New York , with a thing beside your ear known as a mobile phone ? Nothing is impossible &#33;

Garry

[eggplant]

I didn&#39;t say faster than light or time travel isn&#39;t possible, just that Adair has made a common error in his theory. Crossing the date line does not send you back in time, it only changes the angle of the light... as you progress around the world from the dateline, it gets later and it&#39;s still the dame day on the ground no matter how many times you cross the date line...

[dshan]

Here is a bunch of really good articles on FTL travel, the issues, the potential methods and the state of our current knowledge on the subject.

One thing about FTL travel is that if it is possible at all and we are not the only intelligences in the universe then it makes the Fermi Paradox ("Where are they?" - "they" being aliens) orders of magnitude more paradoxical&#33; It&#39;s bad enough trying to explain the lack of obvious alien visits in the past or present when limiting yourself to STL travel but if FTL is possible they ought to be all over the place...

[Faulkner]

Nice link, dshan&#33;

the lack of obvious alien visits in the past or present

Ancient history&#39;s full of hints of alien visitations...(if you wanna look at it that way).

The present? Well, somebody here in Melbourne took a photo of a dinky-di "flying saucer" recently...I saw it on the news&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; (?)

[Sphinx]

Perhaps the more intelligent being out there will still not be as superior to us. Or perhaps, they will be superior mentally but lack the physical means to create tools. Without both, meaning the superior mental ability and the physical ability to make tools, FTL is not possible making our presense and accomplishments as unlikely as anyone of us ever getting to visit another planet with life on it.

Not to kill the dreamer, &#39;cause I do like to dream, but what would be the motivation behind acquiring FTL ability? Not because it&#39;s never been done but what does everyone think it means for humanity as a whole? I&#39;m sure for some it means "ADVENTURE" and other&#39;s, well, I don&#39;t know. What&#39;s the practical purpose of FTL?

[Weaselbunny]

OK, practical purposes.

How about we&#39;re ripping the smeg out of the earth and it&#39;s just a matter of time till we totally knock things out of kilter. If everything is market driven and Bush won&#39;t entertain the Kyoto agreement then we&#39;re in a bad place and only getting worse. FTL travel would open up the scope for finding other planets that we can inhabit and eventually destroy&#33;

As for the idea that there is no-one out there more advanced mentally/ scientifically than us and there fore we haven&#39;t been contacted.... if we go back to Star Trek, where this Warp Drive argument all stems from, The humans weren&#39;t contacted until they had discovered warp drive. So maybe they&#39;re keeping their distance cos we aren&#39;t ready yet. Or maybe we truly are at &#39;the unfashionable end of th western spiral arm of the galaxy&#39; and are therefore considered somewhat declasse&#33;

[Spacemad]

Originally posted by Weaselbunny@Feb 3 2004, 03:32 PM

As for the idea that there is no-one out there more advanced mentally/ scientifically than us and there fore we haven&#39;t been contacted.... if we go back to Star Trek, where this Warp Drive argument all stems from, The humans weren&#39;t contacted until they had discovered warp drive. So maybe they&#39;re keeping their distance cos we aren&#39;t ready yet. Or maybe we truly are at &#39;the unfashionable end of th western spiral arm of the galaxy&#39; and are therefore considered somewhat declasse&#33;

I have always liked & read a lot of science fiction & I never miss an episode of Star Trek ( or its spin offs ) but whatever author you read they ( the aliens ) almost all unanimously refrain from contacting Humanity till it has mastered FTL technology & reached at least one of the nearest stars.

It seems quite a reasonable idea - after all you donīt want to nip the flower in the bud&#33; - that if we were contacted by aliens with FTL technology (especially if we were close to a breakthrough in this field) we might feel there is no place "out there" for us & , as a species, we might decline & eventually fall into oblivion.

So maybe they&#39;re keeping their distance because we aren&#39;t ready yet. :P

[Weaselbunny]

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Maybe we have to get to FTL travel for ourselves because if an advanced race came along and we got access to any technology (or obtained it in a sneaky fashion) they we could possibly destroy ourselves because we may not fully understand it or misapply it. Star Trek gives us examples of this happening.

Imagine if we travelled back just 150 years and showed some scientist an atomic bomb or nucleur fission, we could well have blown ourselves to kingdom come by now through dabbling in knowledge we weren&#39;t ready for. h34r:

Maybe it&#39;s not just The Federation that has a Prime Directive.