Newbie
Earlier this morning in South California, where I am, the moon and Sun were in the exact same portion of the sky. In fact the sun was "above" the moon forming a sort of figure 8.
I'm a beginner stargazer and wondered how frequent does this occur, and what is it called when it happens?
Also, without using a sun filter, can I view the moon when this occurs? both objects were very bright, but considering the moon is just reflecting the light is it okay to not use a filter?
Established Member
I was in Southern California in 1992 and I saw the Sun and the Moon in the exact same place at the same time. Hundreds of people gazed at the rare spectical. Here's a picture I took:Originally Posted by ramsquire
http://orbitsimulator.com/sunset/1024fs_eclipse92.JPG
I'm surprised you perceived the Moon to be bright. It's usually barely noticable when it is close to a New Moon. You don't need a filter for the Moon, but you do need one for the Sun.
What you're describing should occur twice a month, once near sunset and once near sunrise.
How far apart were the Sun & Moon?
Established Member
Welcome to the BABB!
What you're seeing is a result of the Moon's orbit around the Earth. It's what you'll often see referred to as the "phases of the Moon". If we start with a New Moon, we have the Moon directly between the Sun and the Earth and we don't see any of the Moon. As the Moon progresses in its orbit you'll begin to see a "waxing crescent" Moon and you'll notice that it gets higher and higher from the western horizon.
After about 1 week you'll notice that the Moon is half illuminated and is about 90 degrees from either horizon when the Sun sets. This is called a "first quarter" since the Moon has completed 1/4 of its orbit around the Earth. From first quarter onward you will notice more than half of the Moon is illuminated. This is called a "waxing gibbous" Moon. Gibbous is derived from the Latin word which means "hump" or "humpbacked".
After about another week the Moon is "full" and rises on the eastern horizon about the same time the Sun sets in the west. From Full Moon onward the phases repeat themselves in the reverse order. For the next week you will see a "waning gibbous" phase, but this time the "hump" will be on the opposite side from the "waxing gibbous" phase.
The Moon then enters the "last quarter" phase where the Moon is again half illuminated and again is on the opposite side from first quarter. From last quarter the Moon preceeds to a "waning crescent" phase back to a New Moon.
The view you described was during the Moon's last quarter when the Moon rises before the Sun and it appears as if the Sun is chasing the Moon toward the western horizon. Every month, during last quarter phase, you can see this occur.
It's safe to look at the Moon without a filter. However, a really bright Moon can be uncomfortable for some people. Just remember to exercise extra caution if you try to look at the Moon when the Sun is close to it in the sky. Accidently bumping or moving the scope could have some bad results.
Newbie
I'm still learning how to measure the sky in degrees. I know a good beginner method is using the hand, so I did. It was about half a thumb. I think the full thumb is roughly five degrees, so I'd say about 2.5 degrees.
Newbie
Thanks for the explanation. It's just a shame I hadn't noticed that before. Just shows how little people look up and notice the sky.Welcome to the BABB!
What you're seeing is a result of the Moon's orbit around the Earth. It's what you'll often see referred to as the "phases of the Moon". If we start with a New Moon, we have the Moon directly between the Sun and the Earth and we don't see any of the Moon. As the Moon progresses in its orbit you'll begin to see a "waxing crescent" Moon and you'll notice that it gets higher and higher from the western horizon.
After about 1 week you'll notice that the Moon is half illuminated and is about 90 degrees from either horizon when the Sun sets. This is called a "first quarter" since the Moon has completed 1/4 of its orbit around the Earth. From first quarter onward you will notice more than half of the Moon is illuminated. This is called a "waxing gibbous" Moon. Gibbous is derived from the Latin word which means "hump" or "humpbacked".
After about another week the Moon is "full" and rises on the eastern horizon about the same time the Sun sets in the west. From Full Moon onward the phases repeat themselves in the reverse order. For the next week you will see a "waning gibbous" phase, but this time the "hump" will be on the opposite side from the "waxing gibbous" phase.
The Moon then enters the "last quarter" phase where the Moon is again half illuminated and again is on the opposite side from first quarter. From last quarter the Moon preceeds to a "waning crescent" phase back to a New Moon.
The view you described was during the Moon's last quarter when the Moon rises before the Sun and it appears as if the Sun is chasing the Moon toward the western horizon. Every month, during last quarter phase, you can see this occur.
It's safe to look at the Moon without a filter. However, a really bright Moon can be uncomfortable for some people. Just remember to exercise extra caution if you try to look at the Moon when the Sun is close to it in the sky. Accidently bumping or moving the scope could have some bad results.
BTW-- for the past month we've been getting some great views of Venus and Jupiter as they're orbits are pretty close in the evening sky. Will this continue into the fall, or do I have to wait until next summer to get them so close to each other?
Order of Kilopi
Welcome to the BABB (soon to be BAUT?), ramsquire.
I'm not sure what you saw, but it was probably some sort of reflection. The moon was more than twenty degrees away from the sun this morning, and it won't be until the day after tomorrow that it gets within two and a half degrees. And even when the moon is within a couple degrees of the sun, the lit side of the moon is turned away from us, and the sun is so bright that you would not be able to see the moon with your naked eye at all.
Established Member
Yes, I was a little taken by the description of the sun & moon as "forming a sort of figure-8". This does sound like a reflection, especially as they were described as "both very bright". The moon this morning was very much a fingernail crescent and would have been quite difficult to see unless you knew exactly where to look, owing to the brightness of the sun nearby.Welcome to the BABB (soon to be BAUT?
I'm not sure what you saw, but it was probably some sort of reflection. The moon was more than twenty degrees away from the sun this morning, and it won't be until the day after tomorrow that it gets within two and a half degrees. And even when the moon is within a couple degrees of the sun, the lit side of the moon is turned away from us, and the sun is so bright that you would not be able to see the moon with your naked eye at all.
You can never see the moon and the sun in close proximity in the sky, where both are displaying a round 'full' shape. You see it sometimes in movies, but never in real life!
(Edited to add: Welcome ramsquire!)
Order of Kilopi
If it wasn't the moon matbe it was a sundog?
Honored Member
That wasn't the Moon. At that time the Moon was about 25° (or 50 lunar diameters) away from the Sun. Plus it wasn't an annular solar eclipse as shown in tony873004's photo. There was no solar eclipse yesterday, which can only happen at new Moon, which is September 3rd, and if the paths of the Sun and Moon cross as seen from Earth, which isn't going to happen Saturday, and definitely didn't happen on the 1st. BTW, the next solar eclipse is October 3, 2005, but will be visible only in Europe, Africa, parts of Asia, and a tiny bit of Newfoundland.
Instead you were probably seeing a type of mirage where the layers of air cause an image to appear in addition to the actual object. This is explained here.
Honored Member
ramsquire said the view was of the Moon and Sun in the same location, forming a "figure eight". At last quarter, the Moon is a distance of half the sky (90°) away from the Sun, thus eliminating any possibility of the two forming a "figure eight".
Also as mentioned in other posts, once the Moon is close enough to display the sort of apparition described, the side facing us is ~100% unilluminated by sunlight and is invisible to the unaided eye, as well as most optical instruments.
Established Member
Speaking of the moon, what a beautiful sight this morning while driving to work. Absolutely crystal clear skies, with 'nighttime' skies everywhere but the East, where the warm glow of dawn was already well under way. There, right next to a surprisingly bright Mercury, was the "oldest" moon I think I've ever seen. Just the thinnest of thin slivers of light.
Incredible.
Then, a half hour later or so, I looked out my office window facing West and witnessed the atmospheric thingie where you get an opposing "sunrise", i.e. a red band of sky opposite of the actual sunrise, with darker skies below and lighter above. Can't remember what it's called, but remember it pretty much occurs right along the edge of the earth's shadow. So, you're actually looking at the delineation between day and night.
Anyways, pretty darn cool sights to start an otherwise mundane Friday!
Honored Member
Nice descriptions. Do you ever get a feeling of sensing the three-dimensionality of space when seeing such sights? For me quite often it's as though the ground's gone and one is seeing things from a space perspective. Then maybe it's just lack of sleep.Speaking of the moon, what a beautiful sight this morning while driving to work. Absolutely crystal clear skies, with 'nighttime' skies everywhere but the East, where the warm glow of dawn was already well under way. There, right next to a surprisingly bright Mercury, was the "oldest" moon I think I've ever seen. Just the thinnest of thin slivers of light.
Incredible.
Then, a half hour later or so, I looked out my office window facing West and witnessed the atmospheric thingie where you get an opposing "sunrise", i.e. a red band of sky opposite of the actual sunrise, with darker skies below and lighter above. Can't remember what it's called, but remember it pretty much occurs right along the edge of the earth's shadow. So, you're actually looking at the delineation between day and night.
Anyways, pretty darn cool sights to start an otherwise mundane Friday!
Pretty sure when that band of red reflects off mountains it's called alpenglow (alpenglühen). 8)
Newbie
Ok, now I am totally confused, but thanks for the replies.
It could have been a mirage as it was a cloudy morning yesterday. What I saw in the clouds was a bright spherical body but I could look at it and discern its globed shape, therefore I assumed it was the moon. The other objects had no discernible shape and was just bright light, and I could not directly look at it. I know that was the sun, so either the body I saw beneath it was a reflection of the sun in the clouds or the moon, I really don't know.
As for the shape, it was a sort of figure 8, the two bodies did not appear to be connected, and were not in a direct north-south line. The lower one was about half a thumb lower and a full thumb to the west of the bright light. I don't know how to measure accurately but that was the best I came up with.
Also, this occurred at about 7:15 AM.
Order of Kilopi
I always wondered why I didn't experience that, growing up, but all of a sudden something clicked watching the stars and planets one night on the Alabama shore, and I haven't really shaked the feeling since.
That was almost surely the sun rather than the moon, if you could see its shape. The moon should not have been visible. Often the sun is visible that way, through clouds. I'm not sure what the other shapeless object was--probably just a point reflection.
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