some thoughts on gmail...

[hewhocaves]

..which aren't mine. but i may or may not agree with them. http://www.gmail-is-too-creepy.com/

(i have to finish reading it first )

anyway, it does bother me that a search engine wants to keep all our emails forever and ever. i get the same feeling about fox run henhouses, if you know what i mean. i don't care how many eggs ome out of there or how happy the hens look - i just get a queasy feeling in my tummy over it.

the bit about how email loses its privacy (if true) after 180 days is really troubling.

John

[pumpkinpie]

the bit about how email loses its privacy (if true) after 180 days is really troubling.

John

It says "This means that a subpoena instead of a warrant is all that's needed to force Google to produce a copy." So no need to worry, if you're not doing anything illegal, you won't be subpoenaed and your messages won't be read. (it appears.) If you are doing something illegal, then you don't deserve the privacy! :wink:

Also, you *can* delete the messages, it just takes a few more steps.

Some of the other points are interesting though. I can't claim to understand the poilicy of it all, so I have to give it another couple reads.

[Stregone]

All other webmail services have the same or very similar policies.

[ToSeek]

the bit about how email loses its privacy (if true) after 180 days is really troubling.

John

It says "This means that a subpoena instead of a warrant is all that's needed to force Google to produce a copy." So no need to worry, if you're not doing anything illegal, you won't be subpoenaed and your messages won't be read. (it appears.)

But what if someone you email is doing something illegal? Your emails will be there as well.

[hewhocaves]

It says "This means that a subpoena instead of a warrant is all that's needed to force Google to produce a copy." So no need to worry, if you're not doing anything illegal, you won't be subpoenaed and your messages won't be read. (it appears.) If you are doing something illegal, then you don't deserve the privacy! :wink:

hey, i want to continue illegally combining mailman DNA and dog DNA without the intrusion of the federal government, thank you.

seriously, though. its a bad precedent. you may have unwavering faith in our government's good intentions, but i certainly don't. No sense it letting them get any closer to the "absolute power" part of the game than necessary.

[Chuck]

It's not true that no one will get a subpoena and read your mail if you do nothing wrong. Being accused of doing something wrong is enough. The government can always make up some charge, read your mail, then drop the charge. They might do this if you openly criticize the mayor or some powerful judge because they'll want to see what else you're up to and who your friends are. Knowing their opponents' political plans can help them to stay in office.

[GDwarf]

It's not true that no one will get a subpoena and read your mail if you do nothing wrong. Being accused of doing something wrong is enough. The government can always make up some charge, read your mail, then drop the charge. They might do this if you openly criticize the mayor or some powerful judge because they'll want to see what else you're up to and who your friends are. Knowing their opponents' political plans can help them to stay in office.

And how is this different for GMail? Any ISP would have to do the same, and Hotmail would have no qualms at all (Heck, I'm still not convinced that Hotmail doesn't sell your address.)

[hewhocaves]

And how is this different for GMail? Any ISP would have to do the same, and Hotmail would have no qualms at all (Heck, I'm still not convinced that Hotmail doesn't sell your address.)

i'm not saying that hotmail or yahoo or whichever is better. gmail just happens to be the flavor de jeur.

there is a bit of method to my madness. i'm looking for a new place to use as a mail server. i'd prefer not to use the giant free places (yahoo, et al) for all the above reasons and then some. I'm looking into setting up an email server on my linux box as well.

the whole thing is made slightly more complicated beacuse I'm moving in novemeber. I'm also applying for grad school at about the same time and the school wants a permanant email address. I'd prefer to get something that I can hold onto for the foreseeable future.

John

[formulaterp]

It's not true that no one will get a subpoena and read your mail if you do nothing wrong. Being accused of doing something wrong is enough. The government can always make up some charge, read your mail, then drop the charge. They might do this if you openly criticize the mayor or some powerful judge because they'll want to see what else you're up to and who your friends are. Knowing their opponents' political plans can help them to stay in office.

Oh stop it, you're being paranoid. [-X It's not like the government would ever arrest someone, transport them thousands of miles away, lock them up in a prison, prevent them from contacting a lawyer or their families, and hold them for years without ever even filing a criminal charge against them. We live in a free country, things like that just don't happen.

[Darasen]

Unless of course you happen to ne a terrorist not an amierican citizen nor a part of any actual military force. That and your icaught while trying to kill american soldiers and have no respect or care for the US and its right and do not deserve to have those rights suddenly granted to you.

[GDwarf]

Unless of course you happen to ne a terrorist not an amierican citizen nor a part of any actual military force. That and your icaught while trying to kill american soldiers and have no respect or care for the US and its right and do not deserve to have those rights suddenly granted to you.

Or happen to look too much like a terrorist.

Looking over that site again, it's main points are these:
1.It's harder to delete GMail mail, and that even after it's deleted it may still be stored on Google servers.
rebuttal: Even after you delete files on your average Windows system they are still on the hard drive, does this mean that you are secretly complinging information about yourself? Besides, it's still nowhere near hard to delete emails from GMail, I do it all the time.

2.That Google does not specifically outline every single use of information, thus they must be compiling a database for spam, this is flimsy logic at best.

3.Doesn't apply is 2 doesn't

4.despite Google's apparent ability to compile a massive database it cannot properly match ads. I see little to no problem with ads not matching, besides which, this seems to help prove that Google would have a hard time compiling those databases for useful advertising, if their own ad software can't use it.

All in all it's a silly and over-paranoid webpage.

[Argos]

Where I live email never loses protected status (I´m assuming that the info on that site is true). Authorities will always need a warrant to peek into your messages (at least formally). I only use my local ISP email, protected by local laws.

[Kristophe]

Yeah, I use my gmail account mostly for moving documents from my computer to publically accessable computers for on the fly edditing. So I don't give a sweaty pile of used gym socks what Google does with what I store on their servers (read that again: What I store on their servers) or who they let see it. I'm usually trying to get it in front of as many people as I possibly can, anyway.

The key thing to really think about here is that if you're concerned about privacy, don't use *any* service that stores private information on someone else's system. The police don't have to go through you to get at it then.

[tofu]

Look. You get what you pay for. How much did you pay for gmail? Nothing? Well then, how can you complain?

Create a gmail address and put it on your resume and use it to register for BBs like the BABB. Gmail has great spam blocking code. It's perfect for public email addresses.

Get a *real* email address through an ISP. Pay for it. Keep it forever. Give it to your friends and family. Don't use it to register for anything online. Use POP to download your mail to your own hard drive.

[Jpax2003]

You can always use hushmail for free encrypted communications if you are worried about privacy.

www.hushmail.com

[mathyou9]

Yeah, I use my gmail account mostly for moving documents from my computer to publically accessable computers for on the fly edditing. So I don't give a sweaty pile of used gym socks what Google does with what I store on their servers (read that again: What I store on their servers) or who they let see it. I'm usually trying to get it in front of as many people as I possibly can, anyway.

The key thing to really think about here is that if you're concerned about privacy, don't use *any* service that stores private information on someone else's system. The police don't have to go through you to get at it then.

DITTO; I use gmail for the same reason(s). I can't believe how worked up some people get over the stupidest things.

[hewhocaves]

DITTO; I use gmail for the same reason(s). I can't believe how worked up some people get over the stupidest things.

I'm not altogether cetain that being concerned about your privacy and government snooping is a *stupid* thing. :-? Nor am I *getting worked up* over it. I simply passed along the article because I thought it was interesting enough to share.

I'm also not certain when our freedoms became directly linked to a dollar amount (in response to the person who suggested that we pay for email in lieu of using a free server like yahoo or gmail). Again, that's a slippery slope you don't want to go down.

In short, this is still a new medium (many of us can remember our first email accounts - mine was at ios.com). The regulations, rights and responsibilities regarding it are still being discussed by society as a whole. Personal correspondence can (and has) be used to impugn reputations, sometimes with reason, sometimes without. Furthermore, email is used differently than snail mail - in many cases it's a substitute for speech. The major difference is that it can be retained for years and years in its original form. Dismissing it can be hazardous to us all - we've all written things in emails that we regretted later. I never suggested that this is a great medium because it helps malefactors hide. It is a great medium despite that.

the internet has had a great effect by making information more easily availiable now than ever before. This, despite the porn, neo-nazis, crationists, UFOers, mass commericalism and the like. Much of that is because the internet is mostly unregulated. You could argue that its reasonable to look into emails after X days without a warrant. You could also argue that if you want real security to mail a letter instead. Heck, you can argue that you need a "cone of silence" around you before you say anything of value to anyone.

The point being that once you wander into those kinds of arguments, you need to realize that you've already lost the debate.

John

[Conspiracy Cam]

So?

Every single email provider does exactly the same thing. The only difference is gmail is a lot better then all of the rest with 1000's MB of space, spam filters, and a searchable archive. I use gmail.co mfor everything. (My email is moonhoax@gmail.com)

Note: I am not affiliated with Gmail in any way. :wink:

[Kristophe]

The issue is far more complicated than with traditional mail. First, let me mention that I think it's wrong of the government to decide that they don't need warrants after a certain amount of time, but there's more to it than that. Gmail, and other servers that hold onto information like that are more akin to storage lockers. Usually, when you sign up for a storage locker, you have to sign a contract for it that has a privacy agreement included. This is because you're leaving stuff on someone else's property. They have certain rights to things on their property, whether they're the owner or not, that they don't have to property on other peoples property. Likewise, Google has certain rights to your data when you store it on their servers. You sign a contract with them that outlines what they can and cannot do, and what you can and cannot do, when you sign up for the service.

So, if you want to look at the issue of privacy as a whole, instead of just privacy from Big Brother, then you really should invest in your own mail server.

On top of that, there's the issue that email is offered as a service by private companies. The internet is wide open if you know how to use it. Every bit of data that passes through your ISP can be monitored, sometimes just for the same of amusement. On the Internet, security and privacy are largely the responsiblity of the end user. Way too many people have access to everything on the Internet for it to be regulated in the same way as TV, telephone, radio, print media, and postal services. So, ignoring the fact that it's wrong for the government to hold a double standard with regards to what, where, when, and how they snoop, nothing on the Internet is truly secure.