Conspiracies - Are you a believer?

[HankSolo]

I'm curious what you skeptics actually DO believe in.

Is there any conspiracy that any of you are willing to admit believing in? C'mon be honest. Do you think Oswald had help? Was the moon walk faked? Illuminati? Is Elvis alive? Did Paul die? There's gotta be something some of you die-hard skeptics believe in that's against the mainstream.

You obviously know mine. I just wonder what (if anything) skeptics believe in. For example, my wife (a die-hard skeptic) saw an unidentified flying object at close range years ago. This was seen by thousands of people in Connecticut and is well documented in sites such as:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/9047/packo.htm
It was reported to the police and the newspapers. It was seen by people all over the state, including police. It flew up I-95 prompting people to get out of their cars and gawk. My wife saw it hovering and flying slowly for a long time and she estimates she was as close as 200-300 feet away at one point. This has to be one of the biggest mass sightings that I know about. The next day, the newspaper reported that the UFO was actually 3 low-flying airplanes. My wife still doesn't believe it was an alien spaceship, but she knows for sure that it wasn't 3 low-flying airplanes. Maybe a secret military plane with incredible technology, she reasons. Not only would 3 low-flying airplanes make a tremendous noise, they would zip over her, not hover. My question then is, what is the US Govt doing flying a super-secret airplane over I-95 and over half the state of CT, and then denying it?!? Aren't there other more 'rural' places that they can be doing their test flights? That's kind of like buzzing the streets of NYC in a Stealth Bomber when the Stealth was still in super-secret development. Though she agrees with the logic, she still can't bring herself to believe it was alien.

Figures.... I would kill to see something like that and who sees it? A skeptic....

So I thought it may be fun to find out what, if any, non-mainstream beliefs people on this board have? There's gotta be something... [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[sts60]

So I thought it may be fun to find out what, if any, non-mainstream beliefs people on this board have? There's gotta be something...

OK. I believe, with no evidence to support such a claim, that the Astros will one season make it past the National League playoffs.

There. I've said it.

[Russ]

I believe I'll have another beer. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]

[RalphVanDyke]

Along the same lines as sts60, I believe in a horrible curse cast upon the Cubs, that makes them miserable every year. Other than that, nothing. Oswald killed JFK, UFOs are 100% explainable, we really walked on the moon, and the government isn't trying to spray chemicals on us from 50,000 ft. Guess I'm boring like that.

[steinhenge]

OK. I believe, with no evidence to support such a claim, that the Astros will one season make it past the National League playoffs.

There. I've said it.

Don't worry, I've been rubbing my lucky Chris Holt broken bat all this season and last (and my fiancee has been polishing her Ted Williams tin "Moxie" sign with her Brad Ausmus all-star jersey), so I think we'll be a cinch this year for the World Series. Unfortunatly, the likely strike could erase my postive karma. Sigh.

[Jigsaw]

Is there any conspiracy that any of you are willing to admit believing in?

Yes--I personally believe that the price of gas is set every day by a group of men in a smoke-filled back room who throw darts at a dartboard.

Really.

[Silas]

The cover-up of the massacre of the Polish officer corps by the Stalinists...

The conspiracy of silence regarding the Armenian genocide....

The Reagan administration's arrangement to bring Cocaine into Los Angeles...

The denial of civil rights to the Ainu by the Japanese...

The soft-pedaling of the immediate danger to the city of Seattle from Mt. Rainier, a semi-dormant volcano that *will* erupt, just like Mt. St. Helens, very likely within our lifetime, and which will kill millions of people...

The ongoing effort to belittle the effects of radioactive waste...

Silas

[Celestial Mechanic]

I don't believe that James Earl Ray acted alone in assassinating Martin Luther King Jr. An ignorant ex-con just doesn't end up in Britain with $25,000 and a fake passport. Someone helped him. Who?

I believe that the national guardsmen at Kent State did agree beforehand to turn and fire when they reached the top of the hill. One of them will confess to it on his deathbed a few years from now.

And, as you can see from my signature, I believe that there is an evil conspiracy headquartered in Redmond, WA to deny the people of the world a choice of operating system software. If you don't believe that one, go to a computer store and ask for OS/2 or BeOS preloaded on a computer. Call Dell or Gateway and ask for Linux on a non-server PC. Just try!

[xriso]

I believe that there are people who intentionally spread conspiracy theories and then have a good laugh when they become popular.

[David Hall]

I believe that there was possibly a conspiracy to assasinate JFK. But I don't believe that the extent of it was as large as many people make it out to be. I would say it was a small group of people with one or two of them in high places. But my feeling is we'll never know for sure.

Other than that, I might give some credence to other small-scale conspiracy theories, but I can't see anything on the scale of the Apollo hoax or Illuminati having any basis other than paranoia.

[nebularain]

OK, I'll take a stab at it - for fun.

Oswald? Well, if true, there's enough evidence thrown around that would indicate there was a conspiracy. As an example, I know some people who visited the assassination sight who said that there were markers to show where the key players were at the time, and these people couldn't see how it was possible for Oswald to have accomplish what he supposedly did. But I agree, whatever side of the fence you may lean on, it may never truly be known exactly what happened.

Moon landing? Not a fake.

Illuminate? Hard to say. Though, I wouldn't be suprised if there really was some "behind the scene" manipulation going on from some force or group or something that is influencing world events. Let's see, politicians seem to be owned by businessmen who give them their funds. Public opinion seems to be influenced by the media. Who rules the media? Boy, this line of thought could be debated for months, couldn't it?

Elvis and Paul? Honostly, I could care less.

Now, anyone want to tackle Atlantis or the Burmuda Triangle?

[beskeptical]

I assume, Hank, you are talking about what do we skeptics believe in besides the scientific process.

I believe that false claims in advertisments are discussed in management meetings and they know full well it's a big lie but they don't care as long as they can sell their products.

I believe corporations conspire to do anything that's in the best interest of the richest shareholders and managers regardless of the cost to anyone else.

I believe in the 'right wing conspiracy' that managed to get 50+ million in taxpayer funding to try to get Clinton.

I believe there's a lot of conspiring that goes on in government and if some of us don't keep a close eye on it, the masses will be manipulated and our freedom will be at great risk.

I also doubt that James Earl Ray acted alone but I'm not convinced Oswald didn't.

I don't think Mt. Rainier is being soft pedaled at all, I think the public doesn't want to hear it. (From our Mt St Helens and Mt Pinatubo lessons though, I think there are good odds there will be time to get out of the way. But, I personally wouldn't live on one of the old mud flows. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] )

[Conrad]

I believe that there is a conspiracy by various authors, journalists, editors and publishers to maintain a market for UFO's, Roswell, alien abductions et al, in the teeth of the truth (slightly confused metaphor there). As for the Bermuda Triangle, read Larry Kusche's excellent "Bermuda Triangle - Mystery Solved" and it will, er, solve the mystery for you. More seriously, there are various anti-semitic conspiracies trying to deny the Holocaust and rehabilitate Adolf Hitler (Boy! talk about an uphill struggle on that one!).

- and I believe there is a cloud-creating conspiracy to keep me from ever using my telescope ...

[informant]

xriso wrote:
I believe that there are people who intentionally spread conspiracy theories and then have a good laugh when they become popular.

Conrad wrote:
I believe that there is a conspiracy by various authors, journalists, editors and publishers to maintain a market for UFO's, Roswell, alien abductions et al, in the teeth of the truth (slightly confused metaphor there). As for the Bermuda Triangle, read Larry Kusche's excellent "Bermuda Triangle - Mystery Solved" and it will, er, solve the mystery for you. More seriously, there are various anti-semitic conspiracies trying to deny the Holocaust and rehabilitate Adolf Hitler (Boy! talk about an uphill struggle on that one!).

My kind of conspiracy theories as well.

Oh, and there was something weird about Janis Joplin’s death too! But nevermind that…

[The Incubus]

On 2002-08-09 00:50, Celestial Mechanic wrote:
I don't believe that James Earl Ray acted alone in assassinating Martin Luther King Jr. An ignorant ex-con just doesn't end up in Britain with $25,000 and a fake passport. Someone helped him. Who?

Same with Malcom X, who supposedly reported the same guy following him in a couple different countries (IIRC)

Call Dell or Gateway and ask for Linux on a non-server PC. Just try!

No, but call IBM and they might (They actually sell some computers with Red Hat Linux on them)

The (I know little about space, but I KNOW Computers, gosh darnit! =-)

[traztx]

On 2002-08-09 00:36, Silas wrote:
The soft-pedaling of the immediate danger to the city of Seattle from Mt. Rainier, a semi-dormant volcano that *will* erupt, just like Mt. St. Helens, very likely within our lifetime, and which will kill millions of people...

When I was up on Ranier, I thought it was funny how the park is trying to keep people on little paths in order to prevent them from disturbing the delicate endangered alpine flowers. Hello... this is an active volcano!!

[Valiant Dancer]

I believe that when I drove long distances to work (35-50 miles), the Illinois DOT followed me and tore up all the alternates I had. At one point I had 14 alternates and all of them were under construction.

I believe that George Ryan (R-IL Governor) was aware of licenses for bribes and encouraged it.

I believe that Ray had help escaping the country.

I believe that the US government still has an experimental skunk works at Groom's lake (Area 51).

I believe that John Ashcroft is getting rid of all the Constitutional protections he feels are getting in his way.

I believe that above the level of state legislatures, there are no non-corrupt/bought leaders.

I believe that corporations are out for profit alone and don't care a whit about their employees.

I believe employee loyalty in a corporate environment is stupid.

I believe HMO's have supplanted many medical decisions by providers with ones made by accountants.

I believe that there is a devine force and science describes the rules that the divine force set up. This study is encouraged by the divine force.

[DaveC]

I believe this thread is totally off topic and the BA must be either feeling particularly benevolent or he's on vacation.

[samsara15]

The problem I have weith almost all conspiracy theories is that they assume someone out there is smart enough to keep a secret from lots of people for a long time...everything I have seen in my lifetime indicates that all large, organized groups of human beings take incompetency to astonishing levels. In other words, we're not smart enough creatures to make these conspiracies work.

[HankSolo]

There's some good stuff here. Some of you believe in stuff as wacky as I do!

My opinion? The magic bullet theory just self-destructs the whole Oswald-acted-alone argument. Bad Astronomy? How about Bad Science! Oswald had help. Whether it was just a couple of wackos, or a conspiracy worthy of indicting LBJ, or something in between, that's the real question. But why cover it up? Does society really need closure that bad that we deny ourselves the truth?

Elvis is alive and on Nibiru.

Just kidding.

[beskeptical]

On 2002-08-09 12:40, DaveC wrote:
I believe this thread is totally off topic and the BA must be either feeling particularly benevolent or he's on vacation.

Did we ever establish if you counted those M & Ms as a kid? (Just kidding.)

Didn't this whole web site start because of the supposed 'Lunar Landing Conspiracy'? My take on Hank's reason for bringing this thread up, (not trying to speak for Hank mind you), is that he felt a bit attacked in his last thread. I think he just needed some reassurance that we weren't just discounting every non-mainstream idea for the sake of science.

[Espritch]

My personal pet conspiracy theory is that the fast internet service providers have all conspired to fix the price of fast internet connections at around 40$ a month. Otherwise, it just doesn't seem likely that technologies as different as DSL and Cable Modem accesss would "independently" arrive at almost identical pricing structures. That's the main reason I'm still muddling by with a 56k modem (i.e. I think fast internet prices are artificially inflated). [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif[/img]

Conspiracies can and do exist. They may in fact be fairly common in the business world. Greed is a powerful motive and in any industry dominated by a few large corporations, it only requires cooperation amongst a small number of people to fix prices (there is also a lot of precedence for conspiracies of this sort).

However, the chance that a conspiracy will succeed is, in general, inversely proportional to the number of people who have to be in on it and directly proportional to the vested interest of the participants in the success of the conspiracy. A moon hoax would require a vast conspiracy involving thousands of people and the cooperation of several foriegn goverments who had no vested interest in supporting such a conspiracy. For this reason alone, the likelyhood of such a conspiracy is somewhere between zero and zilch.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Espritch on 2002-08-10 10:10 ]</font>

[SeanF]

On 2002-08-10 10:08, Espritch wrote:
My personal pet conspiracy theory is that the fast internet service providers have all conspired to fix the price of fast internet connections at around 40$ a month. Otherwise, it just doesn't seem likely that technologies as different as DSL and Cable Modem accesss would "independently" arrive at almost identical pricing structures. That's the main reason I'm still muddling by with a 56k modem (i.e. I think fast internet prices are artificially inflated). [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif[/img]

Well, that conspiracy may in fact exist, but I think your logic is flawed. In the end, prices are dictated by market and not necessarily by manufacturing cost.

DSL and Cable Modems are providing the same service, regardless of the underlying technology. Therefore, they are in competition with each other. Therefore, they have to sell near to each other in price, or the more expensive one will go out of business quickly.

[Espritch]

In the end, prices are dictated by market and not necessarily by manufacturing cost.

In a competitive market, market prices should closely reflect manufacturing costs. However, such competition would tend to drive down per unit profits. If the market is big enough, the sponsors of competing technologies might decide to share the pie at inflated prices rather than risk a profit punishing price war.

ADM ("supermarket to the world") was convicted not long ago of conspiring with other multi-national corporations to commit just such a market division for some agricultural product (I don't recall the specific product). I remember listening to a segment on NPR about this. One of the conspirators mentioned how mundane the whole process of "dividing up the world" had seemed. Cooperation is often more beneficial to the bottom line than competition. Unfortunately, this benefit almost always comes at a cost to the consumer. That's the whole reason we have the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

[HankSolo]

Beskeptical is 100% right. The reason I had posed this question was to find out a little more about the people here. There's a big difference between honest skepticism and refusal of any theory outside the mainstream. I know several of the latter (not here of course [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] ). The only reason I started posting on this board is to have intelligent discussions with open-minded people who don't always agree with me, where we can hopefully all walk away with a little more knowledge or awareness. Trying to have a discussion with a "refuser" or a "blind follower" is usually a waste of time. I'm glad to see many of you have just as crazy ideas as I do.

I have my beliefs on a lot of things based on my logic or common sense, but I know full-well that I could be completely wrong and I'm always willing to change my mind and many times do. I like to hear both sides in everything and I'll come to my own conclusions regardless of scientific or religious acceptance or political correctness. I'm always skeptical of the media, any government, science, religion, or any group that wants me to think in their particular way. In my opinion, skepticism seems to be a big theme of this board, and many conspiracy theories are the result of healthy skepticism. If any of these theories could spark some good discussion in its own thread, that would be a good thing.

More stuff I believe in:
1. The stock market is a rigged game run by those who profit from volatility and high volume (investment firms). Without inside information, you're honestly better off going to a casino and playing blackjack (assuming you know how to play it right).
2. OJ didn't do it.
3. The Cydonia region of Mars has some very interesting features that appear to not be natural structures. What are the scientific, religious, and strategic implications if they are artificial, and if verified, would this knowledge ever be released or admitted to the public?
4. What knowledge does the government possess that it withholds from us for fear of "panic" or national security? I agree that a huge conspiracy to withhold something like UFO's is hard to do, and there would be plenty of leaks to the public. And in fact there are plenty of leaks and hints from within the gov't(Roswell and Bob Lazar to name a couple, possibly?). The government response has been to take a stance of ridicule, and that stance has proven quite effective in not having to explain things that we should be demanding explanations for. There's another thread about F-16's recently scrambling to chase a UFO that then disappears from radar. This is accompanied and corraborated by an eyewitness to the chase. The response from the Air Force? A lackadasical "Nothing to worry about, just routine...". I'm paraphrasing, but whether extra-terrestrial in nature or not, that's not an acceptable response to me.

[aurorae]

3. The Cydonia region of Mars has some very interesting features that appear to not be natural structures. What are the scientific, religious, and strategic implications if they are artificial, and if verified, would this knowledge ever be released or admitted to the public?

Why not? This question always dumbfounds me.

Some groups (like NASA and JPL and their suppliers) would have a great vested interest in the discovery of extraterrestrial life, especially intelligent life, since it would open the floodgates of funding due to overwhelming public interest and excitement.

Also, if there is anything on any of the Mars images that appears to you to be artificial, I'd suggest taking Geol 101 at your local university. Follow that up with a 300 level class in physical geology.

[Firefox]

The only problem is that NASA doesn't consider the formations in Cydonia to be compelling enough to really warrant further exploration. Not only has the Global Surveyor and the newer Mars Odyssey cast doubt on the "face", as I recall, the Viking orbiter that took the original photo also caught the "face" in different lighting conditions, demonstrating that it was not an artificial construct, but rather a trick of light and perspective.

It also helps to keep in mind that humans have the tendency to identify facial features in natural objects, a hold back from when we were infants.


-Adam

[HankSolo]

On the contrary, I think the US would not reveal a discovery on this scale. The strategic military advantage of discovering advanced intelligence would outweigh any benefit to the public. A "captured" UFO is more valuable to the military if only they know about it. Revealing advanced technology to the public will only make us have to share the info. There's a reason we develop military aircraft in secret, instead of sharing those advances with the world. Whether legitimate or not, I believe the government, any government, would keep a discovery of this magnitude top-secret as long as possible. So we cannot trust the gov't if we are seeking the truth. Skepticism is crucial and you must make your own conclusions based on your own observations.

Are there multiple, natural, geological structures on earth that have triangular sides? If natural, wouldn't these types of structures appear randomly scattered throughout Mars and Earth, or would they only appear as a cluster in Cydonia? That type of evidence would convince me.

As for the face, subsequent photos should be treated with skepticism. While it can obviously be a trick of light and shadows, I have to reserve judgement because of the proximity of the pyramid structures. As I mentioned before, I honestly believe that we wouldn't be told about a discovery like this, at least not for a long time. I wouldn't tell. Imagine the fallout. What real benefit would it serve humanity, and what are the dangers, that's what I would have to weigh as president (or whoever gets to make these decisions [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]). I have also read how NASA was shown to have deliberately removed data from a subsequent set of pictures to change the appearance of the "face". A possibility that has to be taken into account... I have to reserve judgement for now, though the implications if they are legit are absolutely fascinating. To me, they continue to "appear" artifical.

I admit it is far-fetched, but it is right there in front of our noses. Until we have conclusive evidence, we only deny it because we can't bring ourselves to believe it is possible. Putting the shoe on the other foot, if we as a society had already accepted ET's visiting Earth in the past, and then we made the Cydonia discoveries, we might immediately assume that these structures were artificial. It's all about what possibilities we will allow.

[sts60]

No, we deny it because it looks like a funny-shaped natural formation, and the "evidence" for any artificiality is based on silly mathematical games that can be applied to any vaguely suggestive formation.

Could the "Face" be an artificial construct? Sure. Is it? Not very likely at all. Is it worth trying to investigate it more? Well, I certainly believe we should go to Mars in person. But Cydonia is just one region on Mars, and not the most interesting from either the geological or xenobiological point of view.

And I don't buy any coverup story. The discovery of an artificial structure would be a huge boon to NASA, but of no immediate military significance. There's no reason to cover it up, and every reason (read funding and public excitement) to trumpet it.

It's conceivable the military would classify the existence of some ancient ray gun, but the only closeups of Mars so far show dirt and rocks, not artifacts. If you believe otherwise, try coming up with some evidence before asking me to believe you. Just saying "there's a coverup" won't do it.

[HankSolo]

http://www.his.com/~tharsis/pyramid/

Here's a site that a quick search brought up. Read for yourself and come to your own conclusions. Lots of formulas, so you scientists should like it. Personally, I just go by appearances and come to my own conclusions based on common sense and the possibilities I allow. I never asked you to believe in anything, so I'm not sure where that came from. You yourself said it is possible that it could be artificial. I agree that we need to investigate these structures in person. With sand and dirt being whipped up over such a long time, there's no way to get detailed photographs. Add to that the catastrophic meteor/asteroid impacts splattering dirt all around, and who knows how much detail is being hidden from us. We need a serious archealogical expedition to expose the nature of the formations. Only then will we know for sure. For now, we can only speculate based on appearances. There's no reason why our speculations can't be different. I think mine is more fun though.

Unless I'm mistaken, NASA is still a government agency. Anything they discover has to be declassified before the public gets it. Any evidence of ET technology would have to go through so much scrutiny before it's released. NASA would still get its funding regardless of the public being informed. I don't think public excitement figures much in their decisions. Evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence would have tremendous strategic importance, especially if that intelligence is higher than ours. Contact with the source of that intelligence would be the first step. Do we want Saddam Hussein to be Earth's representative? Do we want other countries vying to be the first ones to communicate with a greater intelligence? Or do we want that advantage for ourselves? It's absolutely logical why we wouldn't release a discovery of this magnitude.

What benefit would the "masses" get by admitting these discoveries? Looking at it from the "boss's" point of view, I don't see any besides answering the curiosity of people like me. The others don't believe it anyway. On the other hand, anarchy, mass suicides, cults, panic, and a general deterioration of religion and society could be a possibility that they would probably rather not face. Seriously put yourself in the position of making this decision, with the influence of your close (probably military, definitely political) peers, and not from the perspective of science, and what decision would you make? I would keep it secret until I can establish contact, and then use that advantage to establish myself as the world leader and the primary contact. Then any flow of information would have to go through me first. Keep in mind the ego that's required for political office. And I don't think satisfying the scientific curiousity of people like you and me really matters, when all is said and done. It's all about power. It always has been.