Established Member
DUI Defendants Skip Charge By Asking How Test Works
This seems an easy way to avoid charges on a technicality, but I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed to see all the evidence against you (like if the code has bugs in it which throw random results)
Established Member
Drink-Driving Law in the UK is nailed down pretty tightly:
Unless the Police foul up the proceedure there is very little wriggle room because of the opportunity to have an independant blood test done. The Courts do not take kindly to chancers and timewasters.If your reading is red, you will be arrested on suspicion of drink-driving and required to take a further test at a police station. You cannot be convicted purely on the evidence of the roadside breath test. If the police officer is in a car, he might take you directly to the police station, but more likely (and certainly if he is on a motorcycle) he will call for another police vehicle to attend the scene to provide transport.
At the police station, you will be required to provide two breath samples for the Intoximeter equipment, which is accurately calibrated and is used to provide the evidence of your BAC that is presented in court. The reading that will be used is the lower of the two samples. At this stage, a refusal to provide a specimen is an offence that is treated in law as the equivalent of being convicted with a BAC above the legal limit.
If your breath-alcohol level is between 40 and 49 µg, you will be offered the opportunity to take a blood or urine test as an alternative. This option should always be taken, as you have nothing to lose, and there is a chance it may result in a more favourable figure, particularly if you consider your alcohol level is falling. If the police fail to offer this alternative they have not applied the procedure correctly and this can be used as a defence in court. You also have the right to be given a sample of blood or urine for independent analysis, but experience suggests that the alcohol level is unlikely to vary significantly from the official test.
Edit: In the US wouldn't it be possible to cite a representative the manufaturers of the equipment as an expert witness? Evidence could then be given regarding the efficacy of the tests without giving away trade secrets. Overall though, it's in their interests to co-operate because if their kit leads to unreliable prosecutions then they won't be selling many in the future.
Banned
I'll be the first to admit this, I have been arrested for a DWI (I must be old) before. I went to the Indy 500 and drank beer. I stopped drinking 8 hours before I decided to drive 60 miles back to Lafayette. While in Lafayette, I dropped off a really drunk friend at her house. As I was driving back to my house, I got pulled over for a headlight being out. The car wreaked of alcohol and so did I. I insisted they take a blood test, but the police refused.
I was convicted of a DWI.
It's now been dropped from my driving record, but what a nightmare it was for 7 years with Insurance, etc... I was constantly harrassed by the Police years after this happened. They would pull me over for anything and everything.
I finally escaped the evilness of Tippecanoe County police officers by moving to Chicago. I haven't been pulled over for the last 8 years. Perhaps, closer to 10.
Word to the wise, demand a blood test. I don't trust the "blow test" or whatever it is called. :wink:
Established Member
A cautionary tale Candy. Over here your punishment only really starts once you have your licence back. You will be lucky to get anyone to insure you (especially if you are under 21) and even if you do the rates are exhorbitant, also, as you point out, you are likely to get 'pulled' at any opportunity.
Established Member
I was returning from a night out late at night, 3 of my passengers had been drinking but I hadn't. I was followed along a main road by a car right on my tail - far too close for safety. I saw him flash his headlights but assumed he was just trying to get me to speed up. After about two miles I had had enough so I turned into a side street and stopped. I expected the idiot to continue along the main road but he followed and pulled up behind me. It was then that I saw the blue lights on the car
I got out and went to the driver of the police car, he said "Have you been drinking?", I said No! have you? I asked him if he knew the stopping distance at 30 MPH and why he had been driving so close behind me. He asked me why I hadn't stopped when he flashed his lights, I told him I didn't stop for every drunk driver who was clearly incapable of keeping a safe distance! I then made a point of writing down his number and the registration number of the car. I only wish I had had a camera to capture the look on his face!
Established Member
That reminds me of something. A friend of mine works in traffic in the Police. A few years ago, he pulled somebody over because he had bikes on the back of his car that were obscuring his number plate. This friend is a really nice, polite guy. However, the guy he pulled over gave him torrents of abuse, mainly to do with interrupting his journey and slowing him down. Rather than do him for anything, he just asked the guy to sort out the bikes and go on his way. Curiously enough, the guy was pulled over three more times - by different police officers - within about 40 miles because his behaviour and attitude compelled my mate to radio ahead to his colleagues along the road. I think he probably did sort the bikes out eventually.Originally Posted by frogesque
Totally irrelevant, or at least highly tangental at best. Sorry.
Banned
Oh, it costs me a lot, too. I had to go through a driving defense course (money). Insurance rate went sky rocket (SR-22 money). Drivers license back (money). Lawyer (money). I believe I spent close to $4000 to just get my life back. MONEY! :-?
Moderator
And how many innocent lives are wrecked by drunken drivers ? [-X
This reminds me of the story of the time a bank manager and a vicar had low impact shunt. The vicar was quite shaken, so the bank manager gave him a flask of brandy. The vicar sipped it and handed it back to the bank manager, who put it away. "Aren't you going to have some yourself the vicar asked"
"Oh yes " replied the bank manager, "after the police have left" :P
Banned
But was I drunk after 8 hours? I wonder why they wouldn't do the blood test? :-k
Order of Kilopi
And how many innocent lives are wrecked by drunken drivers ? [-X
This reminds me of the story of the time a bank manager and a vicar had low impact shunt. The vicar was quite shaken, so the bank manager gave him a flask of brandy. The vicar sipped it and handed it back to the bank manager, who put it away. "Aren't you going to have some yourself the vicar asked"
"Oh yes " replied the bank manager, "after the police have left" :P
My dad, as a cop, actually said that if you can, uh, arrange for witnesses to see you having a drink after the accident "to calm your nerves," you will have a legitimate argument against any subsequent blood/breathalyzer test offered as DWI evidence.
Order of Kilopi
Were you still drunk? Good question. The average person metabolizes alcohol at a rate that drops your reading .015 per hour (after you have completely stopped consuming).But was I drunk after 8 hours? I wonder why they wouldn't do the blood test? :-k
So if a person is .20 (for most that would be pretty impaired but nowhere near unconcious), 8 hours after they stop drinking they would be right at the legal limit of many states (.08).
BTW, not as a personal attack to you, and it sounds like you've learned from the experience - but I am relatively hard-core in my attitude about offenders. I believe a 1st offense should be a mandatory 90 days in jail, 1 year revocation after that, $5K fine, and 100 hours service. And if the insurance companies want to price the insurance so high no one can afford it - that's cool. If that doesn't shock a person into responsibility, each subsequent offense or violation of the rules gets quadruple the initial penalty; except that a 3rd offense should result in permanent lifetime revocation and probation and wearing of a GPS bracelet for life if you ever miss a probation hearing.
Banned
YES, I LEARNED MY LESSON. Let someone else drive! :wink:
Order of Kilopi
I was on a jury for a DUI case a few years ago. The young woman (below the legal age in fact) claimed to have had only one beer at an office Christmas party but registered .10 on the breath analysis machine.
The prosecution had the State Patrol officer who maintained the machine testify. He'd obviously done this before and was very well prepared with detailed charts showing how the machine worked and was calibrated.
The girl's public defender said the machine must have been wrong but offered no evidence to support that contention, other than her testimony that she had only the one beer. We felt sorry about convicting her.
About three months later every conviction based on evidence from that particular machine was thrown out by the state supreme court!
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.
Banned
Okay, so after 12 beers and no food by 4pm, I waited until midnight to drive back home. I actually reached home 1 hour later (so 9 hours). Are you seriously saying I may have been drunk?
I served the time, I did the crime. It's all over with now. I really wish I were me now, because I would have fought this injudice in court.
Not every drinker is a criminal!
edit - I take back the no food part - I ATE FOOD PURPOSELY AFTER DRINKING. Now, I'm getting mad.
Established Member
Just curious--you said you asked for a blood test, but they refused. You never mentioned if you did or didn't do a breathalyzer. I am assuming that the breath test is different than a blood test. Am I wrong?Okay, so after 12 beers and no food by 4pm, I waited until midnight to drive back home. I actually reached home 1 hour later (so 9 hours). Are you seriously saying I may have been drunk?
I served the time, I did the crime. It's all over with now. I really wish I were me now, because I would have fought this injudice in court.
Not every drinker is a criminal!
edit - I take back the no food part - I ATE FOOD PURPOSELY AFTER DRINKING. Now, I'm getting mad.
Anyway, I'm confused about how you could be convicted just from the car smelling like alcohol, and I'm guessing admitting you had been drinking hours earlier, but without any blood or breath data. (or did I miss some information?)
Banned
It said I was at .10 (Indiana legal limit), which I highly doubted, that's why I asked for the blood test. Of course, I was the bad person. :roll:
Banned
I'M SORRY, BUT 8 HOURS LATER AFTER DRINKING (AND EATING FOOD)! This is still a sore spot in my life.It said I was at .10 (Indiana legal limit), which I highly doubted, that's why I asked for the blood test. Of course, I was the bad person. :roll:
Banned
My family and the cops have a history in Tippecanoe County. I understand both sides. It wasn't until I got stuck in the "system" that I soon learned to get out!
My family members, god love 'em, remain their. They are constantly hounded by the local police.
HOW DO I KNOW THIS?
I once went golfing with a cop, and he was driving down a county road on the way back to my house. He said arrogantly to me, "This is what I pulled your sister over for!" Then he threw a piece of paper out the window of the car. I learned later, she was arrested for violating something.
I MOVED AWAY FROM INDIANA! It's evil. It's bad. Enough said!
You know what's even sadder? I won't even talk to my family (brothers and sister) because of the police. I won't let my grandmother or mother talk about anything negative when they call me. I don't want to become involved in the drama. :-?
Order of Kilopi
I don't know Indiana's laws, but in many placces, they indeed are obligated to give you a blood test if you ask for it. It's probably a bit late to do anything about it now, though. :-?
Banned
I am so pathetic for ignoring this. I should do something about the injudice of a corrupt police department. Why do I just want to let it go, though? I'm confused. :-?I don't know Indiana's laws, but in many placces, they indeed are obligated to give you a blood test if you ask for it. It's probably a bit late to do anything about it now, though. :-?
Banned
I'm still mad!
Please, let me tell you one more story.
I spent a night in jail! I get out, and claim "my goods". Well, my CIGARETTES and LIGHTER are missing. The FAT cop tells me that I must've been mistaken in checking in those items.
Well, the guy that checked me in just happens to be sitting out of ARMS way. I point to him for clarification.
The ARMS way cop comes in range, questions are asked, and he says, "YEAH, SHE HAD A PACK OF CIGARETTES AND A LIGHTER".
BUSTED! Still no cigs. They offer to reimburse me, but I threaten to sue them.
Here's the strangest part of the story. That same pack of cigarettes and lighter turn up in the back seat of my grandmother's car a day later. I just happen to live with her. COINCIDENCE, I think not.
Anyone that knows a smoker, knows a smoker knows where the smokes are! If you know what I mean!
YES, I'M STILL MAD! 8-[
Order of Kilopi
When I first came to Texas, in 1985, you could drink and drive. I did it once just to say that I did drink and drive. Of course if you were drunk that was against the law. They changed the law in 1987 if I remember correctly.
Don't think I ever drove drunk. There was one time that I drove after drinking a couples of beers, but I doubt that I was drunk.
Established Member
When I was in high school, I worked as an EMT on an ambulance. I learned my lesson from other people. I've been to more car wrecks than most people see in a lifetime. I'd bet 65 to 70% involved drunks of one description or another. This was back in the very early 70's when drunks were a joke and MADD was just getting rolling.
Just some samples:
1) A "cool dude" in his brand new 442 hit a telephone pole. The car caught fire and burned to death three of the prettiest cheerleaders in the school. He walked away without a scratch.
2) Three 16 yo boys were doing 75 in a 35, ran a red light. They ran over an old man and his daughter crossing the street, then lost control of the vehicle and crashed into the church where the couple they hit were headed for a funeral. They killed one more and injured 5 in the chuch.
3) One of my friends from the track team, went to a party and left falling down drunk. He got in his car, drove off and hit a huge old tree. He died on the way to the hospital, while I was taking his BP.
4) A motorcyclist got loaded up at the local country western bar. On his way home he drifted into the oncoming lane and had a headon with a semi. We took one of the drunks shin bones out of the truckers arm before transport.
5) Etc., etc., etc.
6) The one funny one. Three old ladies got tiddly at the "Old Sherman House" and left in a 67' Dodge Dart. About three miles down the road they hit a telephone pole. We were called as they insisted on being taken to the hospital. Our on site investigation of their injuries indicatied they had none. The investigating police officer estimated that they hit the pole at 3 (or less) miles per hour. They had almost dented the front bumper and almost scratched the paint on the right fender.
Side note: The 85 yo lady, who had broken her lipstick on the dashboard, was actually taken to the hospital. I suppose to have the lipstick smudge removed from her forehead. :roll: I was at the foot of the streatcher when we moved her to a hospital gurney. When she put her right foot from the streatcher to the gurney I became informed of the fact that she had on no panties! On the way back to the barn, the rest of the crew had a good yuk over the expression on my face during the event.
Moderator
[-X
See this link
Where I work, road safety is part of our remit.
Order of Kilopi
Using the chart here, I would say that I had 4 beers over a 1 1/2 hour period. I would guess that the size was probably more like 10 oz instead of 12 oz, but I'll just use 12. I would say that I waited at least an hour before I got behind the wheel of my car. Anyone who has been a student at the University of Texas knows that you got to walk a long way to get to the parking lots on campus, plus I went back to my office to get a few items to take home.
Based on the descriptions provided, I say that I was in the 0.05 to 0.08 range.
Moderator
Please view this movie clip
And read This leaflet 3.67MB
There is no real "safe limit"
You Drink or You Drive
Not Both
[-X
Established Member
Got to agree with Sticks on this. Drinking impairs your ability to function, and anything that requires a certain amount of hand eye co-ordination should be avoided. If I am driving, I admit it, I will have one drink. EXACTLY one, usually the weakest beer on offer (Got to love IPA at 3%), generally with food. I then drive significantly more defensively than normal.
One of the rules of thumb I've heard about processing alcohol is you allow one hour to process one unit of alcohol, which is about half a pint of weaker beer, or a small glass of wine. However a quick google brought up this link.
which given Candy's case looks like she may well have had a significant alcohol level in her blood.
Please don't get me wrong here, I'm not advocating not drinking, as a nice pint of ale, or a good bottle of wine, or a glass of single malt whiskey is a true pleasure. I'm also not against getting a bit silly now and again, although I can't cope with hangovers like I used to. If you want to drive though, you have to exceptionally strict with yourself.
Cheers
John
Established Member
It's not there now but on the motorway service station at Abington (M74) there used to be a car wreck displayed on the grassy area just as you entered the car park. It was in 3 barely recognisable pieces of mangled metal. The boarding said it all:
DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE
Sticks: I so agree with the new summer campaign. On hot days it's easy to feel relaxed after a few beers and forget that you are still in charge of a lethal weapon. For the record I would fully suport official random testing.
I got pulled one night in a 30 zone - sometime between 11.00pm and midnight. I hadn't had a drink for a few days and after the formalities I asked them (nicely) why I was stopped thinking I had a rear light out or something. The officer told me they thought I was driving too carefully! At the time I was teaching my then wife how to drive so I made a habit of driving by the book, including speed limits. It was all good natured but it does go to show - if they want to stop you they'll find a reason.
Established Member
This is begging to be appealed to a higher court. Four judges in one county think one thing, every judge in the other counties think the opposite. The device is presumably approved by the state. Some soon to be re-elected prosecutor ought to be off to the state capital with this.
For those in the UK: The police cannot randomly stop a motorist for a breath check, they can however randomly stop a motorist to check their documents, and if they suspect alcohol can breathalyse them.
Order of Kilopi
It's been a while since I seriously perused the data, but here are a couple tidbits:
<> Coffee and cold showers do nothing to sober you up. They just result in a potentially more awake drunk who was probably best left to pass out til they sobered up.
<> I'm pretty sure the dilute-it-with-food theory is also bogus. It does not matter how much food is in your blood. It's the amount of alcohol that counts.
<> Since driving under the influence is illegal, than doing so makes you guilty of criminal activity. You can play semantics if you want with whether or not that makes you a criminal. A person that engages in criminal activity is at least, at the time, a criminal.
<> Be careful of the charts. I wouldn't take them out partying and use them to determine if you are legal or not. They are a very general guideline. A person's size, and specifically their blood volume, has a lot to do with it; as does how fast you metabolize alcohol - though the person to person variation is only slight.
Yes, a very small % of cops have been known to make transgressions. Whining about it is a lot less effective than not getting behind the wheel while drunk as far as a way to avoid being the victim of such transgressions.
As a coincidence, my brother lives in Tippacanoe County. He is always complaining about the crookedness of every official he's ever dealt with - cops, housing inspectors, work comp investigators, etc.
Lastly, I drove a wrecker for a couple years. I've seen bodies popped like a big pimple and a person still alive (well, breathing anyway) with half their frontal lobes gouged out and laying on the seat. This was at a time when a lot of ignorant people wore their DWI conviction like a badge of false bravado.
There is absolutely nothing cool about cruising with a brew - and the fact that Texas was one of the last states to make it illegal says a lot about that culture. Getting behind the wheel after drinking is like waving a loaded gun in a crowded room. You may not want to hurt anybody, but that matters little once something bad happens. And I refuse to take the step towards irresponsibility by calling it an accident.
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