The four contrails from the engines are disrupted by the vortex from the ends of the wings which leaves the two distinct trails.Originally Posted by Zandy
Order of Kilopi
The four contrails from the engines are disrupted by the vortex from the ends of the wings which leaves the two distinct trails.
Established Member
Well, if indeed this is supposed to represent some sort of "chemtrail", I would have to wonder which trail is chemical. The non-persistant one can't be, as the theory goes that these are "normal" contrails. The long thin "vortex" trails would seem to be a failure at best, as there's no dispersion.
Interesting, certainly. A "chem" trail? Nah.
Newbie
Don't you think it's odd though?
Unless they were at slightly different heights and flew next to each other but only a few feet above where the contrail started to become "persistant".
I didn't think it was a chemtrail either, but I'm curious as to what it could be.
Newbie
I just read your post.
I think I understand, even though I'm not great at physics. I assume it's because they're so close together that only the two opposite planes make the "persistant" trails.
Moderator
Look back through this thread. It has been gone over a number of times. Contrail formation depends on a lot of variables, temp, pressure, altitude, humidity, throttle settings etc. You can watch an aircraft fly over leaving a trail in some places along its track and not in others.
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Newbie
Okay, sorry for not looking over the rest of the forum but I thought the video was quite interesting.
If there are so many variables why are the consistent trails so common?
I'm not a believer, at all, but the video made me wonder. If there were at the same height, they would have been at the same altitude, temperature, pressure, humidty and only from what you said, the throttle settings could have been different.
Surely a chemtrail believer would argue that since you can see it in some and not in others, along with it being at the same time, that actually they are chemtrails.
I'm just curious is all, my mother and stepfather are firm believers.
Moderator
How do you know they were at the same height?
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Established Member
Well when it comes to engine types, one of the most common is the CFM56...used in virtually all the 737s flying today, and the Airbus 319-321 series...and there are a LOT of these types flying constantly. Rolls Royce RB211s, same story. GE CF6 series...ditto. So there's a lot of commonality in the propulsion area. The smaller twin jets are the most prevelent for short to medium hauls, the bigger 3-4 engine planes for the longer runs (DC-10/MD11, 747, A340 etc)...which can put out wicked thick contrails.
But so much depends on all the variables coming together, or not.
Established Member
I think this has also been covered - it's not just throttle/mixture settings. It's also engine design. 'High by-pass' turbofans, which are more likely to contrail, are much more common these days.
In fact if you dig deep into the interweb, there is a picture somewhere showing two planes at the same altitude (photographed by another behind them), and one is contrailing, while the other is not. I'm being lazy not giving a link, sorry, but someone might have it readily to hand...
Having said that, 50 feet difference in altitude can be enough to mean no contrails v. contrails. Look up wind shear..
Added - here ya go:
http://contrailscience.com/why-do-so...t-others-dont/
Last edited by chrlzs; 2010-Mar-18 at 07:30 AM. Reason: added link..
Order of Kilopi
Perhaps because they are longer (and hence more visible) and they last longer. This is an example of "confirmation bias". Unless you can do a detailed survey of planes, which leaves trails and which don't, the charcateristics of each, etc. (and analyse the results in statistically meaninful way) all you are left with is "I see a lot of X and therefore ..." (forgetting about all the Y and Z you don't see for whatever reasons).
I feel for you... It may be easier to ignore the issue rather than try and change their minds, which is probably pretty much much impossible.I'm just curious is all, my mother and stepfather are firm believers.
Established Member
The persistence of contrails depends upon temperature, relative humidity, and the vigor of mixing between the exhaust plume and the ambient air.
It is not unusual for contrails to spread and merge so that they cover a good portion of the sky with a filmy veil of ice crystals.
Sometimes the moisture and ice nuclei injected into the air by the jet engines can support the formation of natural cirrus, even if contrails didnt form initially, provided that a gentle uplift causes enough cooling for clouds to form.
Order of Kilopi
It was one plane.
I'm not sure how many people have looked at the video that Zandy posted, but I get a slight impression that the discussion is straying from it a bit.
It's a matter of how the 4 engines' distinct (and "fluffy") contrails quickly merge into 2 distinct sharp contrails in such a short distance behind the plane.
It does look quite strange to me, but I rarely see low flying 4 engine craft around here, so I'm not quite sure if it's common or not.
I jumped out with a possible explaination of what I think is going on, I was hoping for some confirmation.
Established Member
It looks to me as though the engine contrails fade quickly, and it's the aerodynamic trails that persist (from the wingtips).
Order of Kilopi
I guess that's close to what I said. The only distinction though, is when those trails form. I don't see them generated from the wingtips until well after the contrails merge. And they seem more directly in line with the outboard engines (based on the contrail) than the wingtips.
Established Member
Wing tip vortexes, aka 'Wake turbulence' are surprisingly persistent. As was explained by Hazzard, the life of a contrail is very dependent on weather conditions. Wing tip vortexes can 'suck up' the vapors from a contrail and keep them from dispersing as quickly. Not to mention that the vortexes them selves can produce a visible vapor trail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy0hgG2pkUs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1ESmvyAmOs&NR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_turbulence
*edit*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_vortices
Last edited by Bobbar; 2010-Mar-19 at 01:14 PM. Reason: Added another wiki link.
Newbie
Never heard of chemtrails before. How is this supposed to affect our minds?
Emma [URL removed]
Established Member
Not every 'chemtrail' proponent believes that their purpose is to affect our minds. Otherwise, I've heard arguments that 'chemtrails' contribute to Alzheimer's, or that the chemicals make us more susceptible to subliminal messages carried by various media, and/or that the 'chemtrails' are a vehicle for propagating mind-control signals generated by the HAARP apparatus and/or cell phone towers, etc. Rather fantastic stuff without any basis in reality.
Order of Kilopi
Then what could those other reasons be... your examples all seem like mind control to me.
Contribute? there needs to be a reason for them in the first place before you can say contribute.
Besides, causing Alzheimers is a way to supress (control) someones mind.
You mean by controlling the mind to make them susceptible?
Or, a part of mind control.
That's for sure.
Established Member
Sorry, I wasn't as clear as I could have been there. What I tried to say is that I've heard some believers argue that 'chemtrails' serve purposes other than for mind control; weather control, eavesdropping, real-time modification of data transmissions, etc. The otherwise part was an enumeration of purposes which I've heard that weren't part of the first group. In other words, mind control.
Regarding the Alzheimer's claim; I think that there are studies which show a correlation between elevated levels of aluminum in the body and the disease. Chemtrail believers assume this means "cause" or, at the very least, "contributing factor." They go on to claim, without foundation, that chemtrails contain some amount of aluminum. Therefore, the TPTB are giving us Alzheimer's, or making it worse.
Moderator
Probably the result of chemtrails in your area affecting your thought processes.
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Order of Kilopi
There is no good evidence of a connection between alumin[i]um and Alzheimer's. The biggest source of dietary Al is from things like tea, beer and bread - so I can't see much point in trying to introduce more into the environment. The body only absorbs a tiny percentage of dietary Al anyway. And then promptly excretes most of that.
http://alzheimers.org.uk/factsheet/406
Member
My grandfather was a pilot, and he said that Chemtrails were a reality. Also I have seen other credible people such as pilots, flight engineers, and chemists claim the same. I don't think its a theory but a conspiracy fact. JPO.
Administrator
If you are going to advocate such a position, then it is your responsibility to defend this position, to offer evidence for it, and to answer all questions put to you about it. I strongly urge you to read The Advice for Conspiracy Theory Supporters. You will be held responsible for following these rules.
Established Member
Did he mention anything more specific? What's their purpose? What are their affects? Composition?
Interesting. Who? Where? When? The first set of questions also applies. What do they do, and how do they (the chem-trails) do it?Also I have seen other credible people such as pilots, flight engineers, and chemists claim the same.
Based on what evidence?I don't think its a theory but a conspiracy fact. JPO.
Look. Any regular Joe can go to an airport and pick up a sample of jet fuel to do with as he pleases. Nothing is stopping anybody from doing all the testing necessary to determine the exact composition of the fuel and what its affects might be.
*EDIT: If you can't answer these questions, how can you be sure that what you believe is actually a reality?
Last edited by Bobbar; 2010-Apr-13 at 02:24 PM. Reason: one more ?
Established Member
When was he flying? Most chemtrail conspiracists claim they only started appearing in the mid 1990s. Though as others have pointed out many, many times, identical contrails have been observed as far back as the 1920s, and studied extensively since the 1950s (for example, Appleman produced his famous chart to act as a rough field guide to the likelihood of persistent, spreading, contrails in 1953)
In what context did your Grandfather mention chemtrails? And what did he think they were for?
Maybe he used the term in reference to something like cloud seeding (which again has been going on for decades (the WMA was set up in 1950) and is a totally different subject - though it might be argued that, whilst not visible from the ground, such activity does indeed produce 'chemical trails')
Established Member
And there's no evidence that anyone is introducing more aluminum by means of so-called chemtrails. But neither of these facts prevent people from claiming the contrary.
Order of Kilopi
My grandfather was a pilot...
Anonymous expertise. What was his name? What aircraft did he fly? What air carrier did he fly for? What dates?
...and he said that Chemtrails were a reality.
A real what? What exactly do you mean by "chemtrail?" What evidence does your grandfather the pilot offer that "chemtrails" occur and are what you or he says they are?
Also I have seen other credible people such as pilots, flight engineers, and chemists claim the same.
And their names are...? And the evidence they present is...?
I don't think its a theory but a conspiracy fact. JPO.
Then you should be able to produce something more convincing than handwaving.
Order of Kilopi
Indeed. I thought it was worth clarifying that point tho - if only to stop more people throwing out perfectly-good saucepans!
Member
Wow, that almost sounded like an order ...... lol
He said it was a weather control program, they needed to figure out a way they can reflect sunlight, so the excess amount of heat from the sun can be reflected back in space. He said that some scientists back then were a little paranoid about the years after the millennium and they expected some "problems" with the sun. Maybe it has to do with the sun spots? Solar maximum. I don't know. I was still a kid back then, i loved the mystery about it, but as I grew up i forgot most of what he said. He told me things about aliens and UFOs too, since he saw how serious I was about that topic even as a kid. I don't think he would lie to me, he never lies. So if this is a lie, then whoever briefed him and the rest of the pilots in the Airforce about this, lied to them. Or made them think that this is what is going on.
Will Thomas, who is an award winning investigative reporter, has reported findings of over 300 types of virally mutated fungi in the chemtrail fall out, where ethylene dibromide was once of the components used in the mix.
The Idaho Observer has reported findings of 26 metals including barium, aluminum and uranium, a variety of infectious pathogens and chemicals and drugs including sedatives in chemtrail fallout.
Dr. R. Michael Castle - "In this century, we believe we are witnessing the gradual, purposeful demise of the Earth’s Natural System. "ChemTrails," the visible toxic-chemical-containing exhaust from airplanes [and auxiliary sprayers], is only a vague description, in lay-terms, of a greater theater of toxic materials being released into the atmosphere/stratosphere, for a myriad of crude and toxic agendas.
This article will attempt to put this global debacle into a profile of events. Technical specificity of all the identified components would require at least a book in length, to recite them all." - So, I suggest you consult google in finding this article. I have no intention of filling this post with bunch of articles and study papers, just so I can "prove my point".
What my grandfather said being confirmed here:
Dr. Edward Teller wrote a white paper in the late 1990s describing a remedial operational strategy, epic-in-proportion, to change the predicted course of what was believed by an international group of scientists, including Dr. Teller and Livermore National Laboratories, to be the inevitably cataclysmic results of global-warming (?), crisis level Ultra-Violet/Cosmic radiation, crisis Ozone layer depletion and other theoretical doom. It should be noted that Dr. Teller, "Father H-Bomb," was responsible for many ill-conceived strategies; not one of which considered consequences such as safety, toxicity, lethality, environmental impact or ethics.
Drs. Staninger and researcher Jan Smith have reported findings of self-replicating nano-machines
I have personal experience with chemtrails too.
Define evidence.
This is where I stop you, right there. I never said the aerosol spraying was conducted via commercial, conventional aircraft. It's strictly military. Ever tried snooping in a military base and investigating their fuel tanks, fuel deposits, barrels you find suspicious? No? Neither have I, nor anyone else.
He said it was a weather control program, they needed to figure out a way they can reflect sunlight, so the excess amount of heat from the sun can be reflected back in space. He said that some scientists back then were a little paranoid about the years after the millennium and they expected some "problems" with the sun. Maybe it has to do with the sun spots? Solar maximum. I don't know. I was still a kid back then, i loved the mystery about it, but as I grew up i forgot most of what he said. He told me things about aliens and UFOs too, since he saw how serious I was about that topic even as a kid. I don't think he would lie to me, he never lies. So if this is a lie, then whoever briefed him and the rest of the pilots in the Airforce about this, lied to them. Or made them think that this is what is going on.
I think I have answered quite enough, considering I'm the only one from "this side of the fence". It's on you to do whatever you please with the info you got in return from me, and the info you can gather on the net considering what I just listed in my post.
How do we define reality? With our limited five senses. One of my five senses was severely damaged during a flyby on October 11th 2008, 1am by a black jet. I don't care if you don't believe me, It's enough that I went through to know that this is real.
World War 2.
I'm not 100% sure when they started, since I'm still new in this chemtrails thing. I remember my grandfather saying that this was seriously discussed even 40 years ago, and to start the operations somewhere near the millennium.
I see. That's ok, but I wasn't referring to something identical, nor performed by conventional craft.
Here:
^ ^ Ordinary, simple, contrail
^ ^ What I believe is chemtrails. The X & O-shape patterns are pretty common. The checkered pattern is also something very often seen.
He mentioned them being chemical compounds that would help people one day when they will face one of the "Sun-crises". It's in my native language so I have no way to say it with an English substitute. He said scientists have predicted a solar catastrophe occurring sometime after the millennium passes by. They spray the atmosphere with these chemicals and when the heat wave travels to Earth, the larger amounts of the heat will be bounced off the atmosphere and return in space.
I personally think they lied to him. If that's the case, then how will they preserve humanity with these chemicals that are extremely dangerous to human health? I mean language it, barium salts!?
But I expected a bit of brainwashing done in the military, they are very good at that anyway. So they inform their soldiers on what they want them to think the operation is about.
No, no, no. Clouds are up in the sky. This stuff, once sprayed, falls on the ground, or on people's skin, eyes, or they breathe that chemical poison, or it falls on the food people eat (fruits, vegetables, crops).
This is where I stop you, right there. What makes you think I'm talking about conventional aircraft? It's military. Military planes do the spraying. Ever tried snooping around a military base, checking their cargo, their equipment, their fuel tanks, or some barrels you find to be with suspicious content? ... No? Neither have I or anyone else for that matter. When you add the military to the mix, that's when your role as a regular Joe with no restrictions of that type seizes to exist.
Not all chemtrails contain aluminum. Most contain some iron particles and barium salts as well as some fungi-like parasites who are somehow associated with the Morgellons disease.
Alexander Sande' Ognjanovski.
He flew one of the first Learjets in 1955.
I don't understand this one. Rephrase please, or explain.
He served as a pilot from 1948 till 1977. After that he was involved as a flight instructor and and technician. He repaired damaged jets and trained other pilots. I don't know if you meant specific dates. If so, elaborate what you meant.
He said he was told that by his superiors. He never flew any of the jets containing the chemicals. The jets were flown by older pilots at the time. Now the jets are all-black or all white, with no symbol or mark, not anything. He didn't use the word chemtrail until the conspiracy talk started circulating around. He used the term aerosol.
Some credible people are listed above. With some "evidence". I might list a few more on another occasion, when I have more time.
Oh? I bet. On an internet discussion forum? compelling evidence? Proof?
And they say I'm the one who defies logic by supporting conspiracies...
I think I have said this before, and I'm gonna say it again: I'm not here to convince anyone in my own personal experience, and with the little information that I have. I'm not here to shove my opinions down on people's throats. I came here to this thread to share an opinion, nothing more, nothing less. You are free to think whatever you want with the bits of info that I provided. I'm not here to prove anything.
Last edited by pzkpfw; 2010-Apr-14 at 09:31 PM. Reason: Language
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That would be because it is.
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