Guns Don't Kill Kids, Kids Kill Kids

[farmerjumperdon]

For those not yet aware, the latest kids killing kids tragedy unfolded in northern MN yesterday. A very disturbed teenager killed 10 people - his grandfather and his grandfathers partner (?), a teacher, a security guard, 6 fellow students, and himself.

I have to ask again: Why is it so many Americans find this such an easy thing to do (shoot each other). Our death by gunshot rate must be several times higher than any other industrialized nation.

[Candy]

Police: Minn. Teen Gunman Shot at Random

[Wally]

"so many americans"?????

out of nearly 300 million, there's bound to be a few majorly disturbed individuals out there. It's best not to generalize. . .

[Evan]

Well, it is kids with guns that kill kids.

Firearm homicide rate for USA is 3.72 per 100,000 per annum. Canada is 0.76 per 100k. Rates of ownership are not much different.

However, total homicide rate isn't nearly so different. USA is 5.7 and Canada is 2.16. Knives, baseball bats etc are all effective. Firearms just make it easier for an individual to kill more people in less time.

Ref:

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

[SciFi Chick]

You don't consider twice as many all that different? Seems different to me.

[weatherc]

You don't consider twice as many all that different? Seems different to me.

I think he was just pointing out that although they are different (around 2 to 1), they aren't as different as the firearm homicide rate (which is more like 5 to 1).

As to why, I'm not sure, exactly. There are places with more guns and less crime, and there are places with less guns and more crime. I personally think it's a parenting issue, but I don't have data to back that up.

[SciFi Chick]

I personally think it's a parenting issue, but I don't have data to back that up.

I think it's the way public schools are run myself.

[Candy]

Relatives told the St. Paul Pioneer Press that Weise was a loner who usually wore black and was teased by others. Relatives told the newspaper his father committed suicide four years ago, and that his mother was living in a Minneapolis nursing home because she suffered brain injuries in a car accident.

Looks like you both might be correct.

[pghnative]

Is Majin still around?

[dvb]

I find it very hard to believe that nearly a third of canadian households own guns.

[SciFi Chick]

Is Majin still around?

His blog has him in Kentucky, not Minnesota.

[Evan]

Not at all hard to believe in rural Canada. I expect the rate is around 90% in the countryside. In the cities is a different matter. The difference in firearms homicide rates is likely because rural Canadians own them for actual legitimate purposes such as protection from bears and cougars as well as legal hunting.

As for the homicide rate in Canada what is not apparent from the statistics is the majority of firearms homicides are incidental to other criminal activity, that is, related to gang activity. Homicide by ordinary citizens using guns is rare. Homicide in the rural areas such as where I live is almost unknown, recent events near Edmonton notwithstanding.

The official ownership rate for firearms in Canada is 26% but that figure is highly suspect. Since 1998 it has been the law that all firearms be registered and that law has been widely ignored. For that reason there is no good figure for who owns what.

[Musashi]

As for the homicide rate in Canada what is not apparent from the statistics is the majority of firearms homicides are incidental to other criminal activity, that is, related to gang activity. Homicide by ordinary citizens using guns is rare. Homicide in the rural areas such as where I live is almost unknown, recent events near Edmonton notwithstanding.

Without looking up anything, I think that would be fairly true of firearm homicde in the US as well. However, it is a just a feeling, so I could certainly be wrong.

[Argos]

Our death by gunshot rate must be several times higher than any other industrialized nation.

I think you´re right, at least compared to Japan, using 1994 data...

Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93; Northern Ireland 6.63; Finland 6.46; Switzerland 5.31; France 5.15; Canada 4.31; Norway 3.82; Austria 3.70; Portugal 3.20; Israel 2.91; Belgium 2.90; Australia 2.65; Slovenia 2.60; Italy 2.44; New Zealand 2.38; Denmark 2.09; Sweden 1.92; Kuwait 1.84; Greece 1.29; Germany 1.24; Hungary 1.11; Republic of Ireland 0.97; Spain 0.78; Netherlands 0.70; Scotland 0.54; England and Wales 0.41; Taiwan 0.37; Singapore 0.21; Mauritius 0.19; Hong Kong 0.14; South Korea 0.12; Japan 0.05.

International Homicide Comparisons

[Captain Kidd]

Before this gets into percentages of people owning guns in whatever country, he used police weapons obtained from his grandfather. So the number of civilians owning guns doesn't really factor into this.

[Evan]

I think it does if you are talking about handguns. Estimates for Canada are about 1 million but for US about 77 million. That is rather out of proportion as the population is 10 to one.

[Russ]

Being a RESPONSIBLE fire arm owner, I belong to the NRA. Despite what you may have heard through the news media, we are not a bunch of "Redneck Bubbas" with beer guts and a burning desire to see the whole world shot up. We are, in fact, dedicated to the safe, responsible use of fire arms.

On the NRA home page nra.org you can find links to the results from the FBI uniform crime report. The information is quite extensive. Interestingly, the FBI report does not paint as bleak a picture as one would expect given the subject event.

Please keep in mind, with the exception of the victims and families involved, there is no one more shocked, horrified or dismayed by events like this one, than the members and management of the NRA.

[Evan]

What is the National Rifle Association position on handguns?

[Captain Kidd]

I think it does if you are talking about handguns. Estimates for Canada are about 1 million but for US about 77 million. That is rather out of proportion as the population is 10 to one.

Let me clarify my previous statement that got truncated by a call to bathe the baby.

I'm meaning in regard to this particular incident, I'm already seeing this used as a call for more gun control laws. Yet he basically stole police weaponry. No gun control law could have prevented that short of disarming the police.

Caveat: I'm not sure about the shotgun, but I'm guessing that was probably his grandfather's too.

[Moose]

I find it very hard to believe that nearly a third of canadian households own guns.

My father and I owned seven between the two of us at one point. One shotgun, the rest hunting rifles.

One household in three sounds about right to me.

[dvb]

I find it very hard to believe that nearly a third of canadian households own guns.

My father and I owned seven between the two of us at one point. One shotgun, the rest hunting rifles.

One household in three sounds about right to me.

I guess it all depends on the area that you live in as Evan had previously mentioned. I can understand the need and use for guns in rural areas, but I'm not aware of many city dwellers who own, or even find the need for one. Unless of course they use them for hunting.

Heck, I remember when my parents owned 3 rifles between the two of them. That was when we lived in Alberta back in the early 80's. They even had a gun rack on the back window of the truck that they'd use for when we'd go hunting. At the time though, we also lived in the rural community of Fort McMurray. Things have changed quite a bit since then though, and you certainly won't see anything like that in Canada these days.

[dvb]

I think it does if you are talking about handguns. Estimates for Canada are about 1 million but for US about 77 million. That is rather out of proportion as the population is 10 to one.

Let me clarify my previous statement that got truncated by a call to bathe the baby.

I'm meaning in regard to this particular incident, I'm already seeing this used as a call for more gun control laws. Yet he basically stole police weaponry. No gun control law could have prevented that short of disarming the police.

Caveat: I'm not sure about the shotgun, but I'm guessing that was probably his grandfather's too.

I think the point that Evan is getting at, is that they're simply more accessible.

[Moose]

I guess it all depends on the area that you live in as Evan had previously mentioned. I can understand the need and use for guns in rural areas, but I'm not aware of many city dwellers who own, or even find the need for one. Unless of course they use them for hunting.

I meant one in three overall, actually. Canadian cities (especially eastern ones) tend to be relatively tame places to live, so I don't really see a whole lot of pressure to own handguns for the illusion of safety. Rural areas, and that includes my pocket city of 7500 people (or so), rifle ownership would be significantly higher than one in three households. I would estimate rural areas to be closer to four in five households with firearms.

[dvb]

I guess it all depends on the area that you live in as Evan had previously mentioned. I can understand the need and use for guns in rural areas, but I'm not aware of many city dwellers who own, or even find the need for one. Unless of course they use them for hunting.

I meant one in three overall, actually. Canadian cities (especially eastern ones) tend to be relatively tame places to live, so I don't really see a whole lot of pressure to own handguns for the illusion of safety. Rural areas, and that includes my pocket city of 7500 people (or so), rifle ownership would be significantly higher than one in three households. I would estimate rural areas to be closer to four in five households with firearms.

I understood exactly what you meant, and thanks for the clarification.

What I meant when I said this

Things have changed quite a bit since then though, and you certainly won't see anything like that in Canada these days.

Was that you don't see gun racks in the back of peoples trucks anymore. At least I don't. ops:

[Russ]

What is the National Rifle Association position on handguns?

I'm not sure I understand the context of your question. If you mean does the NRA favor or oppose them, favor of course. Do we have a pollicy that distinguishes handguns from rifles or shotguns? No.

The NRA views all firearms as powertools. Like any saw, drill or lathe, if you are careful and obey the safety rules, they hurt no one. If you handle them irresponsibly, if you don't obey the safety rules, there is a good chance someone will get hurt or killed.

Having worked on an ambulance I have seen the effects of a chainsaw on the human body. That was as close as I ever came to puking on the patient. One of my buddies picked up a guy that was woking on a wood lathe and lost his grip on the chissel. You don't want to know what happened.

Are you making a joke about the Rifle part of the NRA name? We got a sense of humor too.

What does NRA mean?
No Rummies Allowed.
National Ruger Aficionados.
National Remmington Aficionados
Never Runouta Ammo
Never Rope Alone
Not Restrictions Again!

It goes on and on.

[Majin Vegeta]

Is Majin still around?

Oh, So funny. I was tending to my site which has been open for 5 days and gained 222+ members in that time period. I have a new more friendly blog now, It's a FAQ on everything and there are no curse words!

Any person that would kill UNARMED people, let alone KILL Them anyway, Is crazy and has no respect for human life. You have to blame the schools for not having security though #-o

[Captain Kidd]

I have a new more friendly blog now, It's a FAQ on everything and there are no curse words!

Your blog link is broke.

edit: you changed it, now instead of a broken link it goes to Microsoft... ??

[Majin Vegeta]

What? You have to be kidding! I changed it to 'faqzone.blogspot.com'

[the_shaggy_one]

I want to say something about this, but I don't really have words yet.

What's important to note is that this was done with a police weapon, and that no matter how strict you make gun-control laws, they're not going to prevent policemen from carrying weapons, and events like this will still be possible. Even if this boy hadn't been able to get a gun, he would have been able to get a knife, a baseball bat, or one of a million other potential weapons readily available to children everyday.

Edit: Vegeta, this happened on an indian reservation, in a small school with 300 kids. A security guard was killed trying to stop this kid...

[Captain Kidd]

NOW, I'm seeing your blog.

Weird, I tried it a couple times and kept getting microsoft's site.