Anti-Gravity / Alternate propulsion system

[Phobos]

Richard Hoagland has just put up the following link on his website;
http://www.tdimension.com/lifter.html

The link is labelled as "Real Anti-Gravity?" and when you follow the link it takes you to a website which seems to be run be a new research laboratory.

The page shows a couple of quicktime movies which show triangular objects being levitated.

quoting from their website;
"This rotor (pictured above) was developed on a contract with NASA MSFC (H31066D), using the Power 3 with their patented design. The rotor assembly is in a vacuum container to test performance at various pressures".

They claim that the levitation not magnetically produce, and does not use any form of conventional propulsion.

Anyone know more about this company ?

Jeff (Jeffery Birks)

[Kaptain K]

Considering the source (Hoaxland), I would take it with a (boulder-size) grain of salt. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[hullaballo]

If I didn't hear the compressed air on the video clip this would be a lot more impressive. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hullaballo on 2001-10-24 07:28 ]</font>

[Mr. X]

Considering the time and effort it would take to MAKE an anti-gravity generating device ( or a gravity generating one ) I am certain they didn't do it.

And why is there that wire behind the object? So that the thing made from aluminium foil and toothpicks doesn't fall down?

Concerning levitation, I think this one is a little more fun:
http://www.sci.kun.nl/hfml/levitate.html
I still can't put a finger on whether it is true or not. I think it is, and it's rather impressive.

It is said to be real, but, you know.

[Phobos]

Diamagnetism has been widely reported in science journals and is well understood. It is believed that you could "magnetise" a human being so that he would levitate in a magnetic field in the same way.

However diamagnetism does not look too promising as a alternative means of space propulsion. The claim by this new company is that what they have produced can be used as a means of propulsion.

Furthermore, they also seem to claim to be working in colaboration with NASA. If true I would be interested to know what principles the propulsion system is based upon.

I suspect the company came to Richard Hoaglands attention because their company name suggests they are using energy which is sourced from a higher dimension.

It would seem that the company is only a few months old so I guess we will have to wait a while to find out the whole story.

Jeff

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-24 09:17 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-24 09:18 ]</font>

[Mr. X]

On 2001-10-24 09:15, Phobos wrote:
Diamagnetism has been widely reported in science journals and is well understood. It is believed that you could "magnetise" a human being so that he would levitate in a magnetic field in the same way.

However diamagnetism does not look too promising as a alternative means of space propulsion. The claim by this new company is that what they have produced can be used as a means of propulsion.

Furthermore, they also seem to claim to be working in colaboration with NASA. If true I would be interested to know what principles the propulsion system is based upon.

I suspect the company came to Richard Hoaglands attention because their company name suggests they are using energy which is sourced from a higher dimension.

It would seem that the company is only a few months old so I guess we will have to wait a while to find out the whole story.

Jeff

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-24 09:17 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-24 09:18 ]</font>

Um, energy from a higher dimension? Are you sure it's NOT a religion?

[Phobos]

The concept of higher dimensions is not really that new, but is currently only theoretical with little by way of proof of existance.

The idea of higher dimensions has little to do with religion. Whilst some proponents may pursue their particular interpretation with a degree of religious fervour (RCH), we must not forget there are a number of notable scientists who support the idea of higher dimensions (eg. Stephen Hawking).

As for the group behind the research that he brings our attention to - well, I've had a look at the claims brought forward and so far I find it "interesting".

I have searched through their website and found the paper which I believe explains what they claim is the basis of this new form of propulsion;
http://www.tdimension.com/documents/...Manuscript.pdf

Jeff

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-24 13:32 ]</font>

[Wiley]

On 2001-10-24 09:15, Phobos wrote:
Diamagnetism has been widely reported in science journals and is well understood. It is believed that you could "magnetise" a human being so that he would levitate in a magnetic field in the same way.

However diamagnetism does not look too promising as a alternative means of space propulsion. The claim by this new company is that what they have produced can be used as a means of propulsion.

There are three different types of magnetism: ferromagnetism, diamagnetism, and paramagnetism. Ferromagnetism is what we usually think of when think of magnetism. Iron is the typically example (surprise! it's even called ferromagnetism) and the atoms have permanent dipole moments.

In paramagnetism the dipole moments align with an external magnetic field and produce and attractive force. In diamagnetism, the dipoles align opposite to the magnetic field, and produce a repulsive force. Diamagnetism and paramagnetism are much weaker than ferromagnetism, about 6-10 orders of magnitude weaker. Usually paramagnetism is stronger than diamagnetism.

Diamagnetic levitation is quite real, but can it be used pratically? Since ferromagnetism and paramagnetism are attractive forces and are significantly stronger than diamagnetism, whatever is levitated must comprises diagmagnetic materials only. In other words iron and steel are right out. Some plastics may be diamagnetic, I don't know.

[Mr. X]

On 2001-10-24 15:19, Wiley wrote:

On 2001-10-24 09:15, Phobos wrote:
Diamagnetism has been widely reported in science journals and is well understood. It is believed that you could "magnetise" a human being so that he would levitate in a magnetic field in the same way.

However diamagnetism does not look too promising as a alternative means of space propulsion. The claim by this new company is that what they have produced can be used as a means of propulsion.

There are three different types of magnetism: ferromagnetism, diamagnetism, and paramagnetism. Ferromagnetism is what we usually think of when think of magnetism. Iron is the typically example (surprise! it's even called ferromagnetism) and the atoms have permanent dipole moments.

In paramagnetism the dipole moments align with an external magnetic field and produce and attractive force. In diamagnetism, the dipoles align opposite to the magnetic field, and produce a repulsive force. Diamagnetism and paramagnetism are much weaker than ferromagnetism, about 6-10 orders of magnitude weaker. Usually paramagnetism is stronger than diamagnetism.

Diamagnetic levitation is quite real, but can it be used pratically? Since ferromagnetism and paramagnetism are attractive forces and are significantly stronger than diamagnetism, whatever is levitated must comprises diagmagnetic materials only. In other words iron and steel are right out. Some plastics may be diamagnetic, I don't know.

Thanks Wiley! And calling that device an antigravity device would be lying. From what I know, I'd think that a true antigravity device would be one that could generate anti-gravitons.

Don't tell me that this generates anti-gravitons or I'll laugh and chortle dance around a poke you with a stick.


Just testing: ‰ä?¥–@—¥
(I don't know Jack about chinese, just wanted to see how it handles foreign characters)

[Phobos]

OK I won't poke you, but did you check out the science paper they provided on their website headed;
"An Asymmetric Gravitational Wave Propulsion System"

Quoting from their paper;
"Programmable laser diodes in conjunction with
semiconductor materials will be used to generate
a highly directional transverse wave gravitational
wave (TWGW) radiator. This asymmetric
TWGW radiator will create a directional force
through the center of mass of the radiating
system, thus forming a propellantless propulsion system"

So it looks to me like we are talking about an interesting idea doesn't it ?

Jeff

[Mr. X]

You wanted to POKE me? How dare you! Only I may poke people, and maybe the BA and Ben Benoy! [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Yes, it would be an interesting idea. I'm not just sure any of it is real. I'd need people who really know their way around physics, and I won't be bought over by a couple of seconds of video of toothpicks and aluminium foil with a wire "levitating" over a standard garden plastic table.

I've also seen David Copperfield "levitate" a piece of paper before my eyes. And I've seen HIM do it too, and instead of putting a little piece of wood over himself he had people rotate cylinders around him. But nobody expects to believe any of it to be true. I've seen more impressive yet untrue.

And I look at the rest of the site. Medusa ray? A flashlight. It really becomes how much you can trust these people.

Tell you what. Try to mail someone at Scientific American, or csicop with it, or see a random physics teacher and let's see what they have to say about it, because I smell an industrial quantity of bacon.

Let's leave it at that.

[Phobos]

And I look at the rest of the site. Medusa ray? A flashlight. It really becomes how much you can trust these people.

What is wrong with the "Medusa" device?

The device you describe has the following description;

high-peak power LEDs to produce light at a wavelength and intensity that temporarily blinds

In other words you shine this high powered light into peoples eyes to temporarily blind them. Whats so incredable about that ?

Jeff

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-24 18:57 ]</font>

[Mr. X]

Hmm, you're right. So it's NOT so amazing.
Well my point stands for the rest, I've mailed some people with that, I hope they answer, or else!

[Phobos]

I guess you are sharpening your stick already [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Ps.

There is actually a HUGE market for what are now classified as non-lethal weapons. These include;

1. A rifle version of the tazar gun which can stun from a distance.

2. A "web" gun (think spiderman)

3. A foam gun (think keystone kops)

4. Sonic Weapons.

5. Water weapons.

6. Heat weapons (microwaves irritate the outer 1mm of the skin).

and so on.

Jeff

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-24 19:04 ]</font>

[Mr. X]

I prefer the lethal kind, though [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

There's just one point if find weak in my theory: Why would anyone devote efforts to making that kind of fraud?

I guess I could also take the matter to some physicists and advanced math teachers I know, but I want you to know it'll be YOUR fault if I get beaten, shouted at, laughed at or otherwise degraded or subjected to cruel and unusual punishment. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[Phobos]

If it make you feel better I was fooled by the following website;
www.manbeef.com

I know how much money and effort must have gone into producing what I now know to be a spoof site. My problem here was that I just couldn't understand the mentality that would produce a "joke" in such bad taste.

The minds that produced this site were truely twisted and I suppose I just couldn't understand how someone could waste so much money on something so negative.

Jeff

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-25 04:54 ]</font>

[Mr. X]

On 2001-10-24 19:14, Phobos wrote:
If it make you feel better I was fooled by the following website;
[link]www.manbeef.com[/link]

I know how much money and effort must have gone into producing what I now know to be a spoof site. My problem here was that I just couldn't understand the mentality that would produce a "joke" in such bad taste.

The minds that produced this site were truely twisted and I suppose I just couldn't understand how someone could waste so much money on something so negative.

Jeff

Well, anyone can be fooled a couple of times. It doesn't mean you're gullible if you were fooled (well in that case I would have guessed since cannibalism IS illegal after all [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] )

I guess we'll see. Sit tight

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr. X on 2001-10-24 19:45 ]</font>

[Mr. X]

I think there might be an indication that this is a hoax. Look at the copyright date at the bottom of the page:

20001

Might be a typo, then again it might not, as I said let's wait and see.

[Mr. X]

Three of the patents in the guy's resume check out. However the patents pending ones (if a request has been done) do not. Then again it might just be some computer error over at their place.

Seems like score one for you! [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

One of my people searches yielded no results at all for any Jeffrey A. Cameron anywhere in Alabama, so I guess this makes the score 1-1.

Company lookup for Transdimensional Technologies yielded results! Transdimensional is actually spelled Trans Dimensional. At first it yielded no results because there is a typo (??!?!??) in the name, with the typo it is Trans DimensOInal Technologies. 2-1 for you!

Reverse phone lookup brought me back to Trans DimensOInal Technologies. Good job! 3-1 for you!

I'm not convinced, but so far your side is walloping mine real bad!

Heads up, I'll continue!

[Phobos]

I found this with a google search for Jeffery A. Cameroon;
submmited papers

The following is a list of additions to the
current paid membership of HAL5,
which includes 33 renewals and 12 new
Upcoming Events of Interest to HAL5 Members
Thu., Sep. 2 —
7:00 - 8:30 PM
HAL5 Program on “Capacitive Propulsion — Is this Anti-Gravity?”
by Jeffery A. Cameron, at Huntsville Public
Library, 915 Monroe Ave.; free; questions: 256-971-3055

After a bit more searching I found the following paper submissions;
submitted papers
This would seem to confirm his identity.

Jeff


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-25 13:36 ]</font>

[Mr. X]

Yes, well I haveto say I remain unconvinced, as I know how LOW people will go to impress, to deceive, to lie and to make easy money.

I wonder...if it's all true.

Maybe it's true but they're cheating (magnetic, compressed air). Maybe Jeffrey A. Cameron has been used by people to pull a prank.

If it's true then I'll study those papers as soon as possible to build and commercialize my very first levitating car, spaceship and shopping cart. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Of course everyone on of those products will be offered in my favorite color, purple and will need to have an annoyingly large picture of my face smiling like a moron on top of it. A full color picture, made with paint of course, so no one may take it off.

I'll print out those papers... for safekeeping you know. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[Phobos]

You may have to hurry with that levitating car - remember this ...

http://www.intelbrief.com/ginger.htm

then of course there is the skycar
http://www.moller.com/

[img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
(I like this one)

Jeff

[Mr. X]

That is one COOL car! (The moller one) Car or plane? Very cool! I had never seen it before! It's not on the sales page though [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif[/img] . How much is it worth?

Oh, and by the way I might have to take this Transdimensional paper to the math teacher to see if any of it is real. He gets around in physics. Well, more than around. A lot more than physicists I know. Plus he's less uptight about his qualifications and doesn't have that "Don't come near me you do not have a PhD in physics" attitude. "How dare you even ask me anything?"

Edited for missing quotes

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr. X on 2001-10-25 10:29 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr. X on 2001-10-25 13:18 ]</font>

[GrapesOfWrath]

On 2001-10-25 03:36, Phobos wrote:

Phobos

That long link is pushing the edge of the html out past the screen so nothing wraps in this thread. Make it a hyperlink, that should fix the problem.

[Phobos]

I have now converted as requested. Should be better now.

Jeff

[Mr. X]

More news about Transdimensional? I'll try to talk to the guy I was talking about.

Later!

Hmm, not exactly a clear message, but what the hey.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr. X on 2001-10-25 15:05 ]</font>

[Phobos]

I have been researching the link between NASA and Transdimensional Technologies.

A NASA search found the following paper;
NASA Search Result

Clicking on the link give a "Access Denied" message.

I then tried google using parameters "transdimensional nasa BPP" with the following results;

2001_JPC_Paper_List
... at Berkeley, Berkeley, CA (Sponsored by the NASA BPP Project). ... Wave Propulsion System
J. Cameron, Transdimensional Technologies, Inc., Huntsville, AL (Privately ...

Clicking on the "2001_JPC_Paper_List" link gives a "Page Not Found" error, but the search engine has shown that the two were connected.

There was one link which went somewhere;
Working Link

This web page shows the connection, and sites the paper as;

AIAA-2001-3913
An Asymmetric Gravitational Wave Propulsion System
J. Cameron, Transdimensional Technologies, Inc., Huntsville, AL; R. Shatas, 2C Computing, Huntsville, AL

Returning to the NASA search engine I then looked for paper AIAA-2001-3913 with the following result;

AIAA-2001-3913 NASA search

This provided the following result;

2001_JPC_Paper_List
The following is a list of all papers presented at the BPP Session of the Joint Propulsion Conference. Papers of BPP-sponsored tasks are available by clicking on each corresponding link. Copies of papers not ...
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/2001..._List_test.htm - size 5.7K - Other NASA Internet Sites

(You get the same result if you go to http://www.nasa.gov and type in transdimensional in the search box).

Finally I found one last connection at the following URL;
NASA Revolutionary Propulsion Research

Nasa seems to have located many of its advanced research programs in Huntsville Alabama - the same town that Transdimensional Technologies are located in.

Whilst I cannot access the file it would seem there is sufficient reason to believe there is a connection between the two.

Jeff


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-25 15:47 ]</font>

[Mr. X]

Yes, there is substantial evidence that they are linked to NASA.

If it is a prank, it is a VERY elaborate one. There's just something unsettling. I just have difficulty picturing someone with only a Bachelor of Science doing that kind of research.

I don't think it is a prank per se, but what I am guessing is that they aren't very honest. It might be that this was either stolen from someone else or they ARE cheating.

We NEED help on the matter. Rosen1 IS a physicist. Maybe we should ask him.

[Wiley]

I wonder if Transdimensional Technologies has anything to do with Superconductive Components, the people NASA contracted to build the gravity shield.

If not, these guys really ought to get together.

[Mr. X]

I got something for you PHOBOS! Very interesting. A guy was actually at the BPP and commented on the various things he saw there, among them is, you guessed it, Jeffrey A. Cameron, who presented a paper on an "Asymmetrical Gravity Wave Propulsion System". They say it has been simulated on computer, but no practical tests. The comments he made were done on Sunday, 15 July 2001.

Quoting from Transdimensional's website:

On July 6, 2001 at 9:00 AM CST, at the offices of TDT, 906-E Bob Wallace Avenue, Huntsville, AL, there was a press conference and demonstration of the lifter technology.

Uh, oh! Conflict! More to the point:

Power 3 Lifter Timeline

6 June 2001 The first test article was a single-paneled capacitor assembly. It lifted.
14 June 2001 Lifter1 - Three capacitors were joined to form a triangle assembly.
28 June 2001 Lifter 2 - Has three times greater in mass and physical geometry. The payload capability was greater than Lifter1.

Again more conflict! Those videos were supposedly made BEFORE the conference yet the guy says it has not been exprimentally verified.

Something is fishy. VERY VERY fishy. At least according to me.

Here you can see what document I am talking about.
http://users.erols.com/iri/JPCReport.htm

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr. X on 2001-10-25 16:55 ]</font>