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## Math Says NO!

Math says evolution couldn't happen over a period of even 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 years &lt; That's one big number guys. The universe is how old? 15-18 Bil? Impossible! If you put 100,000 monkeys in a room with infinite INK and PENS it would take them aprox. 15,000,000,000,000 years to
write this: "I am a monkey with a IQ of 4" and they still probably wouldn't do that! Things can't transform into other things over a period of 100,000,000 years, except some climate suitable changes, (long/short hair, tan) It's simply Impossible! Do the math yourself!

And on a side note how can we date how old stars are?

2. Umm, why don't you show us this math that disproves evolution?

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It's late here, I'll put the math up tomorrow.

4. Order of Kilopi
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Originally Posted by Majin Vegeta
It's late here, I'll put the math up tomorrow.
You might evolve by tomorrow and forget it.

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There is no proof of evolution whatsoever... The math is in my book.. Not the math school book

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I think it's ok if you don't believe in evolution. I also think it's great if you want to come here and talk it. Please just don't take it personally if someone disagrees with you. ok? I'm just heading off what I see as an upcomming argument - so when someone disagrees, let's try to act like adults.

Now here goes: The chance that a mokey with a keyboard will type out "I am a monkey with a IQ of 4" is indeed very low.

However, if I have a room full of monkeys, and I let them hit only one key, then the chance that any one monkey type the first letter in that sentence, "I" is one in 27. If I reward the monkey that got the first letter right (with a tasty bannana no doubt) then there is a good chance he'll type it again. Now I reward him for typing "I" and "a" and so on until I get him to type the whole sentence.

That analogy is much closer to evolution than the idea that it all happened by chance.

BTW, I think that most people refuse to believe in evolution because they think it disproves the existence of god. I don't see how these two concepts have anything to do with each other. Evolution does not "disprove" god anymore than knowledge of biology and the way that babies are made disproves that god makes babies. I'm sure you'd agree that god makes babies - and I'm sure you'd agree that knowledge of how sperm and eggs work doesn't disprove the existence of god.

7. A) This isn't the site to discuss evolution.
B) There is a wealth of evidence to support biological evolution.
C) Math cannot disprove evolution.
D) Again, none of this is appropriate to this forum.
E) Dating stars is really difficult, and given ages are usually estimates based on stellar composision, stage in the evolutionary sequence, and the stars surrounding.

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Originally Posted by Majin Vegeta
There is no proof of evolution whatsoever... The math is in my book.. Not the math school book
In it's barest and most bloodless formulation evolution is the change in allele frequencies in a population over time. With the rise of molecular biology over the last 50 years this is now something we can measure directly in everything from bacteriophages to people. If your math proves this is impossible then you are choosing a bad mathematical model.

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Welcome back Majin Vegeta, been a while since you posted.

Rather than take one book that draws that conclusion you may want to read a few others and draw your own informed opinion. I'm sure we would all like to see the math from which the author deduces his viewpoint and I'm sure there will be folk here who can help out with any errors or misconceptions.

This isn't a religious forum however but as long as everyone sticks to the logic and the math behind evolution it should be OK

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"Against the mainstream" - So this isn't the place?

SHUT UP AND LET ME GO TO BED! IT'S MIDNIGHT! (vacation) #-o

11. Well, this is mainly an astronomy board. So, basically, no, it isn't the place. But sometimes we can have conversations that do not have a direct connection to astronomy here, just realize that it is thin ice to begin with.

Secondly, feel free to go to bed.

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Good night everyone! I'll be on tommorrow with it..

13. Mr. Vegeta, you do realize that evolution does not occure purely by chance, don't you? Genetic material which contributes advantageous traits is preserved, so long external conditions continue to give it its advantage...

14. Methinks someone needs to learn some more math...

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## Re: Math Says NO!

Originally Posted by Majin Vegeta
"I am a monkey with a IQ of 4"
Must be the Math... Well because, there you go....

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## Re: Math Says NO!

Originally Posted by Majin Vegeta
Math says evolution couldn't happen over a period of even 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 years &lt; That's one big number guys. The universe is how old? 15-18 Bil? Impossible!
I'd like to recommend two very good books that will give you a different perspective: The Cartoon Guide to Genetics by Larry Gonick and Mark Wheelis and The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins. Cartoon Guide is an excellent introduction to the principles of genetics, and Watchmaker is a good book on evolution that specifically answers the question you raise above.

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Originally Posted by tofu
...However, if I have a room full of monkeys, and I let them hit only one key, then the chance that any one monkey type the first letter in that sentence, "I" is one in 27. If I reward the monkey that got the first letter right (with a tasty bannana no doubt) then there is a good chance he'll type it again. Now I reward him for typing "I" and "a" and so on until I get him to type the whole sentence.
Wait a sec... you're applying an intelligent influence by feeding the monkeys. In the evolutionary model, doesn't a monkey die everytime it makes a mistake?

How many dead monkeys will there be before we get the opposable thumb?

18. The odds typically quoted by creationists about evolution occuring by chance are wrong. Evolution does not occur by chance, for one.

I suggest you read the Talk-Origins FAQ, specifically number 4 which deals with this question.

19. RBG
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Exactly the point I was going to make.

It's not just a lucky break that two elements such as Na &amp; Cl create the compound salt. It's a certainty. Likewise for all the other reactions that formed evermore complex organic molecules. The monkey analogy would be more correct if you could say, when introduced to a typewriter, a monkey will strike the correct key. Because that's the way it is in chemistry. Here or anywhere in the universe (to bring this back to astronomy).

RBG

20. Originally Posted by David Mc
Originally Posted by tofu
...However, if I have a room full of monkeys, and I let them hit only one key, then the chance that any one monkey type the first letter in that sentence, "I" is one in 27. If I reward the monkey that got the first letter right (with a tasty bannana no doubt) then there is a good chance he'll type it again. Now I reward him for typing "I" and "a" and so on until I get him to type the whole sentence.
Wait a sec... you're applying an intelligent influence by feeding the monkeys. In the evolutionary model, doesn't a monkey die everytime it makes a mistake?

How many dead monkeys will there be before we get the opposable thumb?
Well, it was an analogy. The idea being that feeding the monkey in this scenario is (very roughly) equivalent to the surviving monkeys being able to reproduce in the wild, thus leading to more monkeys with the gene. Procreation is the 'reward' of having a successful survival trait, eventually leading to that trait dominating.

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Errr....keep your eye on the typewriter, not the monkey. The model we are after has little to do with whether the monkey is fed, breeds, dies, whatever. In fact, a purely mechanical model can be used; say, that once that first capital "I" is entered we tie off all keys that can not follow an "I" in an English sentance.

22. Originally Posted by tofu
BTW, I think that most people refuse to believe in evolution because they think it disproves the existence of god. I don't see how these two concepts have anything to do with each other. Evolution does not "disprove" god anymore than knowledge of biology and the way that babies are made disproves that god makes babies. I'm sure you'd agree that god makes babies - and I'm sure you'd agree that knowledge of how sperm and eggs work doesn't disprove the existence of god.
I think it's more than that. Most people who refuse to believe in evolution do so because they know that even if it allows the existence of a god, it is fundamentally incompatible with Christianity. Free will lies at the core of Christianity, but evolution has no room for no such a thing. According to evolution we humans are basically the same sort of thing as a tree or an insect: lumps of matter, subject to the same natural forces as a stone or a rock.

But this is religion, so if anyone wants to continue this line of the discussion, start a thread over at FWIS.

23. This is indeed not the place, so I should shut my mouth, but I don't think that Christianity has free will at its core. What about the Fatalism of the (Hyper-)Calvinists? See e.g. the part about strong predestination on this Wikipedia-article.
And on the other hand, I don't believe that evolution excludes free will.
I think it's best if we don't discuss the first part (religion) here, but the second part should be possible on Babb, as long as we keep it scientific (if possible).

24. People can also start a thread at Apollohoax. It has a forum specifically for discussing evolution.

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Back to monkey abuse....

If we set up a simulation where for a 1000 generations, Monkeys who hit the keys on keyboards got a hunk of food, and a chance to mate, would we be evolving typing monkies at that point?

Granted, a prerequiset for writing great literature would seem to be at least in some part having those experiences. Would our hypothetical monkeys write great literature about life in a wildly sadistic biological evolution experiment?

And I think the philosophical crux of the matter, would the monkeys really be inteligent at that point, or would they still be well trained circus animals?

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## Re: Math Says NO!

Originally Posted by DoktorGreg
Originally Posted by Majin Vegeta
"I am a monkey with a IQ of 4"
Must be the Math... Well because, there you go....
Besides, getting a monkey to type this out would require the monkey to evolve into a human that understands English that can type

Now if you rephased it so the monkey gains the ability to comunicate with other monkeys about something that applies to their frame of reference using tools valid to their enviroment then they can already do that.

27. How long would it take to evolve Shakespear from a chimp anyway?

28. ## Re: Math Says NO!

Originally Posted by DoktorGreg
Originally Posted by Majin Vegeta
"I am a monkey with a IQ of 4"
Must be the Math... Well because, there you go....
Besides, getting a monkey to type this out would require the monkey to evolve into a human that understands English that can type
You don't think the monkey could ever type it by accident if given enough time?

29. "Astro-chimps" used to test the first rockets could not have evolved fast enough to pilot a lunar lander. Nasa knew evolution was a fraud so they had to fake the moon landings.

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## Re: Math Says NO!

Originally Posted by worzel
Originally Posted by DoktorGreg
Originally Posted by Majin Vegeta
"I am a monkey with a IQ of 4"
Must be the Math... Well because, there you go....
Besides, getting a monkey to type this out would require the monkey to evolve into a human that understands English that can type
You don't think the monkey could ever type it by accident if given enough time?
Sure, but I was under the belief that it had to type it knowing what it was saying. Typing by accident is just proberbilitys. It could type it out on it's first attempt it could keep going until it was dead from old age and never get it.

However if the "message" was imortant not the actual words then this could be done pretty quickly.There have been experiments using a picture keyboard where primates have been able to have basic communication with humans. This is why I mentioned the "english" thing and it being being relevant to there enviroment in the second half of my post that you quoted.

IMHO They could understand the abstract concepts "me" "monkey" and "smart".

So whilst the words would not be the same and that the monkey would not give an IQ number (4 is a bit low IMHO) they could communicate the "message".

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