Ball Lightning: fact, fiction or woowoo?

[frogesque]

I was reading the A Planet Made of Electricity. thread here and started thinking about ball lightning. I did some web searching and ended up with a lot of Woo^2 sites and some others that were just plain off the planet. I also have a vague recollection of a TV prog. a while back (Horizon ??) where they tried to create a ball but it was inconclusive.

Does anyone know of any current theories, research or debunk on this?

[Gullible Jones]

Well, pictures I've seen of it could easily be photographic artifacts...

[N C More]

I'm pretty sure that it's now considered to be a real phenomenon.

Wikipedia definition:

Ball lightning is a natural phenomenon associated with thunderstorms and takes the form of a long-lived, glowing, floating object, as opposed to the short-lived arcing between two points seen in common lightning. An early attempt to explain ball lightning was recorded by Nikola Tesla on March 5, 1904 (Electrical World and Engineer). [1] (http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/transmis.htm)

I know that in the past it was frequently considered to be woo woo. My Dad had a run in with it back in the 1930's when he was out surveying for the Santa Fe Railroad. He and his fellow worker were laughed at and asked if they'd been "drinking" when they told their story!

[Romanus]

Ball lightning is definitely a real phenomenon. There is a great book on the phenomenon, The Nature of Ball Lightning (IIRC) by Stanley Singer that gives a number of reliable eyewitness accounts and hypotheses concerning the phenomenon. Unfortunately, it's an old, hard-to-find book that you'll have to root around a library for. But by this point, I'm sure most scientists consider it a real phenomenon, though to my knowledge it has never been reproduced in the laboratory exactly as it's described in nature.

[Gullible Jones]

A lot of the explanations I have heard for it seem quite impossible, involving self-contained balls of plasma etc. :roll:

But I think I remember one involving the ignition of organic matter in soil by lightning strikes, producing a cloud of burning particles... That might explain it I think.

[Ilya]

Between about 1975 and 1985 Soviet Academy of Science tried to study ball lightning in the manner no respectable American scientist would accept as "scientific", but is pretty much the only practical way to study a rare, fleeting, and unpredictable phenomenon. They published a questionnaire in "Nauka i Zhizn" (more or less Russian equivalent of "Scientific American"), asking people who had seen ball lightning to describe it. IIRC, it asked about size, color, duration, motion, height above ground, and brightness (compared with a typical light bulb). It also asked whether respondents had seen ordinary lightning strikes at close range, whether associated with ball lightning or not. The assumption was that with a large enough sample all observational inaccuracies, biases and downright lies will cancel out. The published conclusion was similar to above Wikipedia article, although much more detailed and supported by math -- namely that ball lightning consists of equal numbers of positive and negative ions (mostly of nitrogen oxides, but incorporating metal ions after, for example, touching copper wires), surrounded by shells of water molecules. The latter are arranged with negative (oxygen) ends attached to positive ions, and positive (hydrogen) ends attached to negative ones. Ball lightning's overall temperature is barely above ambient, but every ion recombination produces a microscopic flash of blue light. Millions of recombinations every second account for the steady but not very bright glow, while touching a solid object tends to recombine the entire ball, or large part of it, causing burns and/or electirc discharges. I forgot the exact physics involved, but part of that theory somehow required ball lightning to have density very close to surrounding air, ruling out either rapid rise or rapid sinking.

[Van Rijn]

It is almost certainly real, though there are arguments about details. There are lots of woo-woo ideas surounding it. I've looked at this quite a bit since my mother said she witnessed it once when she was young. During a thunderstorm (this was in Iowa, LOTS of thunderstorms there) she said she saw a small glowing ball come in an open window and head straight for a nearby radio. It seemed to contact the back of the radio - and the radio shorted out. The ball faded at the same time, with a bit of ozone smell.

[Ilya]

small glowing ball come in an open window and head straight for a nearby radio. It seemed to contact the back of the radio - and the radio shorted out. The ball faded at the same time, with a bit of ozone smell.

Almost identical to what at least a hundred people reported in the above study. Attracted to live wires, shorts them out on contact. BTW, total response was several thousands.

[scourge]

Apparently you can make one in your kitchen--with a matchstick and a microwave 8) http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/ionwind/microwave.html

[aurora]

I've looked at this quite a bit since my mother said she witnessed it once when she was young. During a thunderstorm (this was in Iowa, LOTS of thunderstorms there) she said she saw a small glowing ball come in an open window and head straight for a nearby radio.

My family reported a similar occurance in the 1950's (before I was born). A ball entered the house, and eventually went out through a door that was opened. No one touched it, although my grandmother was going to throw a pan of water on it but was stopped by my grandfather. Don't know what would have happened...

[frogesque]

Thanks for all the responses. It certainly looks as if there is a real phenomena at work here even if we don't know exactly what its physical cause is. I did get as far as the Wipikedia entry before I posed the question but I also got a bad dose of the woos as well and the inside of my head started to glow

Maybe when I have an old microwave oven I'll have a go at the match experiment and possibly some other fun stuff 8)

Note: for those who are interested, I am past the stage where I wish to have more children - others should take extreme care! Never bypass the door switch and never, ever power up a dismantled microwave.

[junkyardfrog]

I don't have time to google it right now, but there was a Japanese scientist within roughly the past five years who was able to duplicate ball lightning in a lab. I wish I could remember where I saw that. Might have been Discovery Channel. I was under the impression that his work had gotten quite a bit of attention from scientists around the world.

There's no question that it's real. I've never heard a complete explanation for it though....

If you do a search, you might also want to include the Marfa lights. I think that's spelled right. It's in Texas, IIRC. There might be some connection. But it's also possible they are two different things.

Gotta run for now.

[frogesque]

Thanks junkyardfrog, I wasn't aware of the Marfa lights. I got 16,300 hits on a Yahoo search so didn't have time to look at them all but it doesn't seem as if this phenomena is associated with ball lightning. It apears as if it happens regularly about dusk and not associated with electric storms or static. The area is very flat with mountains in the distance so possibly some sort of mirage, I really don't have a clue what it could be though. The 'tuning fork' sounds are also a bit of a mystery.

I'm still lost in wooglegoogle swampland with ball lightning and I'm having a hard time making headway but I'll see if I can come up with anything that has a 'Japanese' theme to it.

Edit: Came up with this. Haven't digested it all yet

[Raptor1967]

I can personally attest to the Authenticity of ball lighting. I was unfortunately working at a television relay station in northern Ontario when I experienced a close encounter with a glowing ball moving slowly about like it had nothing better to do. At one point coming to within a few feet of me. The hair on my entire body wanted to stand up and let me tell you It was a very strange feeling. I had a sunburn on my face the next day and the only answer I could get was ball lightning. After reading about it I have determined that that was what it was but I have to admit I was really freaked out and had many weird ideas as to what it was.

[scourge]

I can personally attest to the Authenticity of ball lighting. I was unfortunately working at a television relay station in northern Ontario when I experienced a close encounter with a glowing ball moving slowly about like it had nothing better to do. At one point coming to within a few feet of me. The hair on my entire body wanted to stand up and let me tell you It was a very strange feeling. I had a sunburn on my face the next day and the only answer I could get was ball lightning. After reading about it I have determined that that was what it was but I have to admit I was really freaked out and had many weird ideas as to what it was.

Holy cow—you must have been –really- close to that thing! I think it’s astounding that electrical energy can maintain itself with that kind of dynamic stability…I wonder how much power one holds. Plasma ball batteries anyone?

Did you see it ground itself out, Raptor?

[Meteora]

If you do a search, you might also want to include the Marfa lights. I think that's spelled right. It's in Texas, IIRC. There might be some connection. But it's also possible they are two different things.

Yes, the Marfa lights are near the town of Marfa in southwestern Texas, not too far from Big Bend National Park. Although most people seem to think the lights are merely car lights viewed across odd terrain, there are those who claim the lights predate vehicular traffic in that area. It's definitely not ball lightning, nor is it likely to be related, even if it isn't car/truck lights.

[Raptor1967]

It floated around at a speed that in itself was strange it moved around as though under intelligent control slowly moving about the area stopping near certain objects and moving on. . But it was around a lot of equipment that didn't seem to be bothered by it. it went by power outlets and the grounding cables for the tower and nothing. But when it did go it accelerated out the window as though something had it on a string and had pulled it back. I went outside but it was gone and I couldn't tell where it had went. In theory I am guessing that it grounded out on the transmission tower but like I said I didn't see it.

[frogesque]

Thanks for sharing your story Raptor1967.

Couple more questions if you woudn't mind:

Was the TV tower transmitting at the time and if so what frequency?

What colour was the ball and did it make any noise?

Thanks again.

[Captain Kidd]

It floated around at a speed that in itself was strange it moved around as though under intelligent control slowly moving about the area stopping near certain objects and moving on. . But it was around a lot of equipment that didn't seem to be bothered by it. it went by power outlets and the grounding cables for the tower and nothing. But when it did go it accelerated out the window as though something had it on a string and had pulled it back. I went outside but it was gone and I couldn't tell where it had went. In theory I am guessing that it grounded out on the transmission tower but like I said I didn't see it.

That description reminds me of the second Tremors movie where the Shriekers seemed to be intentionally destroying vehicle engines and radio equipment. Turns out they were just attracted to the heat. "You mean they've been acting so smart because they're so stupid!?!?" Any recollection as to the items it was drawn to?

[Raptor1967]

Mind you I was riveted on the glowing ball and not paying attention to much of anything else but I recall noticing that they seemed to pause near the video screens. there were screens all over the place like it was checking out what was on TV that night lol

[iantresman]

You'll also find lots of references to ball lightning on the Science Frontiers, one of the best resources on "anomalies" and unusual phenomenon.

Regards,
Ian Tresman

[Laser Jock]

Mind you I was riveted on the glowing ball and not paying attention to much of anything else but I recall noticing that they seemed to pause near the video screens. there were screens all over the place like it was checking out what was on TV that night lol

That makes some sense. There are some rather high electric fields in a TV screen, so it would not surprise me that ball lighting would be attracted to that.

[JonnyWishbone]

Well, my paternal grandmother had a run-in with it back in the 1920s, but as she's no longer around, it's hard to separate the story from the accretions caused by other relatives telling the story.

The gist of it was ball lightning came out of the wood stove, passed near her, and then left through a window. She was certainly worried by thunderstorms for her entire life (and when you live in the country, that can be a much different thing than living in a city), but I can't tell you if I heard these parts of the story from her or from people retelling the story -- that she had actually been spun around by the ball; that it actually blew open the woodstove door; that she actually opened the woodstove during the thunderstorm and the ball lightning came out at that point; and what happened when it hit the window. The lay-out of her house would have put the stove door on close to a straight-line path with the window I assume it's supposed to have exited through.

Cheers, Jon

[Brady Yoon]

It is probably real, but the truth has been distorted so much it's hard to know the facts.

[pghnative]

...I got 16,300 hits on a Yahoo search so didn't have time to look at them all

wimp --- ToSeek would have consumed all of the info and started two dozen threads.

[Messenger]

Jonny, I think we're related!

My maternal great-grandfather was a miserable old coot (well, I liked him, but I'm pretty much alone in that sentiment). My grandmother says that one day when she was a child, ball lightning came down the chimney, out the woodstove, and went right past my great-grandfather sitting in a chair by the window. She was deeply disappointed that it missed him. :wink:

[Plat]

Could there be a planet that is filled with lightning bolts and electricity? like lightning storms all year 'round?

[Van Rijn]

Could there be a planet that is filled with lightning bolts and electricity? like lightning storms all year 'round?

Earth. From

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/reso...wlightning.htm

During every minute of every day, roughly 1,800 thunderstorms are creating lightning somewhere on Earth.

And then you have the places where lightning storms are especially common. From

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast05dec_1.htm

And where does lightning strike most frequently? Central Africa. "There you get thunderstorms all year 'round," Christian says. "[It's a result of] weather patterns, air flow from the Atlantic Ocean, and enhancement by mountainous areas."

[Lianachan]

My father has witnessed ball lightning close up. Many years ago, long before I was around, he used to work for the General Post Office (GPO) based in the Scottish Highlands. He says that he was once up at the top of a telegraph pole (he was a telephone engineer then), when he noticed ball lightning rolling along the phone lines towards him. He just jumped down to the ground and it passed overhead, and kept rolling down the lines. I've not quizzed him about it at all, but I suppose I should do (what colour? any sound? etc...)

It's encouraging to see the phenomena being taken seriously. Definately one we've clawed back from the woo-woos.

[Nicolas]

Long before I was around, my mother had one in the house (not as a pet ).

It is quite the same story: the thing "rolls" over the ground, and went away through a metal sink in the kitchen floor. There was too little electrical equipment in the hous to see interaction with it.

The phenomenon is real, explanations are lacking (certainly in physical details). It is this lack of explanations, combined with the seemingly "intelligent behaviour" of the balls, that creates the woo² stories. In my opinion, it is a 100% natural non-intelligent phenomenon, caused by static electricity.