Creationist Grand Canyon Guide Book in Use.

[Chip]

What's next? "Earth is 6000 years old" at planetarium shows in the interest of "fairness"? ops: National Parks, such as the Grand Canyon are falling victim to mumbo jumbo lectures and books. (This has the approval of the Bush administration.)

Welcome to the new dark ages!

[jrkeller]

I've never understood this garbage. I can't find anything in the Bible that says that the Earth is only 6000 years old.

[Damburger]

It seems Americans are more and more choosing fundamentalist religion over science.

Not meaning to offend anyone, but I think the moon landing was the technological high water mark of the US. You can't expect to remain a modern, high-tech society when scientists are treated with hostility and mistrust by the general population.

November 2nd proved you aren't going to come to your collective senses any time soon

[SciFi Chick]

It seems Americans are more and more choosing fundamentalist religion over science.

Not meaning to offend anyone, but I think the moon landing was the technological high water mark of the US. You can't expect to remain a modern, high-tech society when scientists are treated with hostility and mistrust by the general population.

November 2nd proved you aren't going to come to your collective senses any time soon

FYI - Those aren't the kind of comments you should make if your wish is not to offend people. :wink:

[Cylinder]

In fairness to the article:

Indeed, PEER claims that the Bush Administration has already decided it will stand by its approval for the book and that hundreds more have been ordered.

Emphasis mine.

[Gullible Jones]

I have one word:

Blech!

[SciFi Chick]

So when are the Hindu creationist books going to hit the stands? I'm rather fond of their story, and after all, since the Grand Canyon is public land, it shouldn't be recognizing only one religion, correct?

[ktesibios]

I've never understood this garbage. I can't find anything in the Bible that says that the Earth is only 6000 years old.

No, but others have.

I can't follow Ussher's procedure as given in his own words, but I do know that I don't think I'd let him be the one to calculate how to divvy up the check at lunch. :wink:

[Damburger]

FYI - Those aren't the kind of comments you should make if your wish is not to offend people. :wink:

Which part? The suggestion that science and technology in the US might be suffering due to religious fundamentalism, or that the reelection of Bush was a popular mandate for said fundamentalism?

If the Bush administration distance themselves from this book it will only be out of political expediency. Given that George W thinks he is getting direct instructions from the almighty I'm on fairly safe ground describing your government as a fundamentalist one.

[SciFi Chick]

FYI - Those aren't the kind of comments you should make if your wish is not to offend people. :wink:

Which part? The suggestion that science and technology in the US might be suffering due to religious fundamentalism, or that the reelection of Bush was a popular mandate for said fundamentalism?

If the Bush administration distance themselves from this book it will only be out of political expediency. Given that George W thinks he is getting direct instructions from the almighty I'm on fairly safe ground describing your government as a fundamentalist one.

That may be, but you're on shaky ground here in a forum where the discussion of religion or politics is not welcome - stronly discouraged even - and often ends with threads being locked.

Not only that, the Bush administration is not our entire government, winning by a couple of million did NOT give him a mandate, and we certainly are not a fundamentalist nation just because we have some fundamentalists.

[SciFi Chick]

And btw, I don't trust the hearsay you quoted regarding President Bush, especially coming from a militant Palestinian.

[Damburger]

This is by its nature a discussion about religion and politics. Religious people are using political influence to attack science.

However, seeing as we aren't supposed to be talking religion/politics, I'll stop now.

[SciFi Chick]

This is by its nature a discussion about religion and politics. Religious people are using political influence to attack science.

However, seeing as we aren't supposed to be talking religion/politics, I'll stop now.

If you would like to discuss it further, several of us discuss this type of thing at a place called FWIS all the time. 8)

FYI - You're new, so I'll let ya know that we get away with discussing this type of thing as long as it remains in the realm of how creationism is not science. Stick to the science parts here, and you'll be fine.

[Damburger]

This is by its nature a discussion about religion and politics. Religious people are using political influence to attack science.

However, seeing as we aren't supposed to be talking religion/politics, I'll stop now.

If you would like to discuss it further, several of us discuss this type of thing at a place called FWIS all the time. 8)

FYI - You're new, so I'll let ya know that we get away with discussing this type of thing as long as it remains in the realm of how creationism is not science. Stick to the science parts here, and you'll be fine.

Thanks, I'll have a look.

From a purely scientific point of view, www.skepticsannotatedbible.com is a pretty good disection of Genesis.

[Ut]

Creationism is not faux pas here because Creation Scientists try to use "scientific" methods or arguments to support their beliefs. Talking about political support for fundamentalist beliefs, and why those beliefs will be the downfall of civilization is a completely different matter.

[Damburger]

Creationism is not faux pas here because Creation Scientists try to use "scientific" methods or arguments to support their beliefs. Talking about political support for fundamentalist beliefs, and why those beliefs will be the downfall of civilization is a completely different matter.

Irrespective of the current climate of the US (or anywhere else) - the basis of creationism is an ad hominem attack on the scientific community. People often see their religious leaders as being more moral than scientists, and erroneously believe this makes them more likely to be factually correct. Creationism is about religion trying to reassert its authority over peoples minds, which is an inherently political act.

[Ut]

Creationism is not faux pas here because Creation Scientists try to use "scientific" methods or arguments to support their beliefs. Talking about political support for fundamentalist beliefs, and why those beliefs will be the downfall of civilization is a completely different matter.

Irrespective of the current climate of the US (or anywhere else) - the basis of creationism is an ad hominem attack on the scientific community. People often see their religious leaders as being more moral than scientists, and erroneously believe this makes them more likely to be factually correct. Creationism is about religion trying to reassert its authority over peoples minds, which is an inherently political act.

You obviously missed the point of my post.

We discuss creationists claims here because they try to use scientific studies to back their beliefs and opinions.

Period.

Anything else is explicidly frowned upon.

[Damburger]

You obviously missed the point of my post.

We discuss creationists claims here because they try to use scientific studies to back their beliefs and opinions.

Period.

Anything else is explicidly frowned upon.

Fair enough.

Maybe someone this thread should be locked then, as from the start it had a political angle to it.

[jrkeller]

I've never understood this garbage. I can't find anything in the Bible that says that the Earth is only 6000 years old.

No, but others have.

I can't follow Ussher's procedure as given in his own words, but I do know that I don't think I'd let him be the one to calculate how to divvy up the check at lunch. :wink:

So we are to believe that a Catholic bishop who died over 450 years ago is correct. Funny, the Catholic church and others demominations accept evolution.

[jrkeller]

Not meaning to offend anyone, but I think the moon landing was the technological high water mark of the US. You can't expect to remain a modern, high-tech society when scientists are treated with hostility and mistrust by the general population.

I've been doing hardcore research for close to twenty years now, and have never once been treated poorly, let alone with hostility. In fact most people once they learn what I do, think my job is pretty cool.

[jrkeller]

November 2nd proved you aren't going to come to your collective senses any time soon

I like would like to go on about this topic, but I think it would get way too political.

[ktesibios]

I've never understood this garbage. I can't find anything in the Bible that says that the Earth is only 6000 years old.

No, but others have.

I can't follow Ussher's procedure as given in his own words, but I do know that I don't think I'd let him be the one to calculate how to divvy up the check at lunch. :wink:

So we are to believe that a Catholic bishop who died over 450 years ago is correct. Funny, the Catholic church and others demominations accept evolution.

Hey, I just thought that a link to some of the history of the 6,000 year claim might be of interest. ops:

[jrkeller]

I didn't mean that as a criticism of you or your post. I was trying to be sarcastic about the idea that the Earth is 600o years old.

[Maksutov]

What's next? "Earth is 6000 years old" at planetarium shows in the interest of "fairness"? ops: [edit]

They've been at something like this for some time in the fundamentalist colleges and universities. Let's look at Bob Jones University in Greeneville, SC. BJU was segregated until the early 80s and until recently (2000) banned interracial dating among its students.

Here's how it identifies itself in a banner on its home page:

The Opportunity Place

A liberal arts, nondenominational Christian university, BJU stands without apology for the old-time religion and the absolute authority of the Bible.

Here is the BJU University Creed:

Each day in chapel we recite the University Creed. It is a concise statement of the most important truths taught in God's Word.

I believe in the inspiration of the Bible (both the Old and the New Testaments); the creation of man by the direct act of God; the incarnation and virgin birth of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ; His identification as the Son of God; His vicarious atonement for the sins of mankind by the shedding of His blood on the cross; the resurrection of His body from the tomb; His power to save men from sin; the new birth through the regeneration by the Holy Spirit; and the gift of eternal life by the grace of God.

Here is the statement of purpose by Robert R. Taylor, Ph.D., Dean of the College of Arts and Science

The College of Arts and Science endeavors to provide a liberal arts education by teaching a person to be at home in the world of the mind and ideas; by helping him to understand and respond constructively to problems in the political, social, and economic arenas; by challenging him to bring discipline and order into his own life and that of a needy society; and by refining his ethical and aesthetic sensibilities. Based on the eternal foundation of God's Word, the touchstone of truth, it uniquely integrates faith and learning, teaching not only how to make a living but also how to live.

Finally we reach the Department of Physics and Engineering: Undergraduate Research in Astronomy

Under the direction of Professor Ron Samec, BJU students are actively doing research involving the study of eclipsing binary stars and have recently published a number of papers in this area.

Use the links below to view their recent paper and poster presented at the American Astronomical Society annual meeting in January, 2003.

So we're finally into real science? Not necessarily.

Here's the conclusion of that paper:

Acknowledgements[sic]: We wish to thank the American Astronomical Society for their continued support of our undergraduate research programs through their small research grants. Faulkner and Samec were visiting Astronomers, Cerro Tololo InterAmerican Observatory, National Optical Astronomical Observatories, which are operated by the Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy, Inc. under contract with the National Science Foundation. We sincerely appreciate the IRAF support given by the CTIO staff. We offer special thanks to Dr. Chris Smith and Sr. Hernan Tirado. Finally, I offer all praise to my Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ (R.G.S.).

There's a planetarium on campus. It's the Howell Memorial Planetarium which is located in the Science Building on campus.

Recently rennovated[sic], it is used for classes and public programs. The star projector is a Spitz Model A2, the dome is 9 meters (30 feet) and numerous slide and special-effects projectors make for a valuable learning resource. There is never a cloudy night in the planetarium!

However, the Howell Planetarium is administered under the aegis of the Department of Physics and Engineering.

Here's a description of the Department's purpose:

The Department of Physics and Engineering is in the Division of Natural Sciences, College of Arts and Science. Its purpose is to prepare students for graduate study in the field, employment in industry, and full-time Christian service.

Haven't found any actual programs for the planetarium yet, but you can be darned sure "The Evolution of the Universe" isn't one of them!

Bob Jones University, just one out of hundreds. How do places such as this get accredited? Money?

[Chip]

...Bob Jones University, just one out of hundreds. How do places such as this get accredited? Money?

I suppose they have a right to teach and believe whatever they want. Where I am offended is when the dogma and doctrines of creationism, (which is not a science,) are forced onto the legitimate secular scientific world as if it were somehow an equally valid (yet non-theoretic) belief. Faith might be comforting to some people, but faith is not always truth.

[sarongsong]

...You can't expect to remain a modern, high-tech society when scientists are treated with hostility and mistrust by the general population...

Where the buck stops:
"In February this year the Union of Concerned Scientists published a statement by over 60 scientists including Nobel Laureates, National Medal of Science recipients, and other leading US researchers calling for end to scientific abuses by the administration of President George W. Bush...those many scientists have swelled the original 62 signatories to over 4000 which now include 48 Nobel Laureates...Now the UCS has released a followup to its original condemnation of the Bush administrations abuse of US science... "
http://tinyurl.com/5vq62

"Hello, I'm John Marburger, Science Advisor to the President and Director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy..."

[Harvestar]

Not meaning to offend anyone, but I think the moon landing was the technological high water mark of the US. You can't expect to remain a modern, high-tech society when scientists are treated with hostility and mistrust by the general population.

I've been doing hardcore research for close to twenty years now, and have never once been treated poorly, let alone with hostility. In fact most people once they learn what I do, think my job is pretty cool.

Then you haven't experienced what other scientists (particularly evolutionary biologists) experience. A friend of mine got riduculed and berated for studying evolutionary biology - well and from the opposite side - for being Episcopalian. I also know someone who switched denominations to a more fundamentalist one and questioned being a geologist since his science was different from the views of his church.

Maksutov, while there may be issues with Bob Jones Univ. and I don't know the astronomers involved, I hardly think saying "Thank you Jesus" in a paper is evidence that they aren't doing scientific work. If you were going to say that, then you'd have to say that the Vatican Advanced Technology Telescope (which has a plaque saying "use this to the glory of God") can never be used for scientific study. I also know many astronomers who thanked God in their acknowledgements for their theses. This hardly makes them lesser astronomers.

As for the mission statement, I'd also bet you'd see similar statements at say, Notre Dame or Boston Univ. (among others) and there are highly regarded astronomers at each. In fact, I went to a conference for profs and grad students who teach or may want to teach at a Catholic university. There was talk of how to incorporate Catholic ideals into the university, the classroom, etc. Those of us in the sciences (including an astronomer nun) talked about ethically sound projects, thinking about funding sources, and treating students well. (not teaching creationism)

Anyway, there *is* a series of plaques at one of the overlooks of the Grand Canyon that have various Bible verses on them. "The heavens are telling the glory of God" type verses. I personally found them inspiring, but was surprised to see them there. (they were funded by a private group and yes, there was a stink over them being there) - but yes, I suppose this isn't the place to debate that aspect.

As for the book for sale at the visitor's center, aren't those usually run by private companies? Or am I mistaken? I've also heard about someone who bought a copy by mistake (she wanted a book with pretty pictures of the Grand Canyone and was looking quickly) and was very angry to see what she had when she got home. If they marked it more clearly, may be? (of course, I don't think it should be there at all! Any more than say, a Hoagland book should be at Kitt Peak's visitor center - though there is a book on Mithraism)

[Jim]

Bob Jones University, just one out of hundreds. How do places such as this get accredited? Money?

BJU is not currently accredited. But it's working on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Jones_University

[jrkeller]

Not meaning to offend anyone, but I think the moon landing was the technological high water mark of the US. You can't expect to remain a modern, high-tech society when scientists are treated with hostility and mistrust by the general population.

I've been doing hardcore research for close to twenty years now, and have never once been treated poorly, let alone with hostility. In fact most people once they learn what I do, think my job is pretty cool.

Then you haven't experienced what other scientists (particularly evolutionary biologists) experience. A friend of mine got riduculed and berated for studying evolutionary biology - well and from the opposite side - for being Episcopalian. I also know someone who switched denominations to a more fundamentalist one and questioned being a geologist since his science was different from the views of his church.

I don't do research in areas that would probably put me in a position to interact with those types of people. The research work I do and have done is in the area of heat transfer and fluid mechanics.

[crateris]

My wife picked up some books at a book fair one day. Among the books that she got for the kids was a book about dinosaurs (I forget the title, I'll post is when I get home to look at it). Upon perusing the book, I discovered that it was a creationist explanation of the dinosaur record. But it also turned into an "if you believe in evolution, you also believe in abortion, atheism, murder, homosexuality, etc." propaganda tool. All this from a book TARGETED AT KIDS!!

When I give planetarium programs, I have learned to be prepared for the fundamentalists and creationists that come to me after the show (and sometimes speak up during it) to point out how science (and I) have it wrong. They are not afraid to make a scene (heck, with god or allah on your side, why be afraid of anything?) publicly and are not easily brushed off. I certainly would not go to a church or other place of worship and spout off about how the bible was written in the 6th century and that the writers would flunk grade school science today!

I'm afraid that the ones who WOULD push their beliefs and values ARE emboldened by Bush's victory and we are going to see a lot more creationism being forced into our educational system and onto our kids. And they certainly don't care who THEY offend.

C.