Bullying

[Gillianren]

The school district you are referring to is just like most all school districts including the one I work in now. If, in the other case, you throw them off the bus, then economics comes into the situation. It costs more money to throw them off then to keep them on the bus. It does so because now they must take a taxi to school.

Not in my school district. Heck, at the high school level, they didn't have school buses. You got a city bus pass. Among other things, that meant that, if you angered the driver, the whole bus stopped and the cops might get called.

[NEOWatcher]

When it comes to bullying, the definition it is never "two to tango". One person is being a sadist jerk to someone who doesn't want to defend themselves, doesn't know that they need to or doesn't know what to do.

I wouldn't exactly say never. But; it's close enough.
I was one of those exceptions where I eventually did "man-up".

It's not just about a sadist jerk, it's a group mentality. Perhaps instigated by that jerk, but it turns the whole group against you.

[blueshift]

Not in my school district. Heck, at the high school level, they didn't have school buses. You got a city bus pass. Among other things, that meant that, if you angered the driver, the whole bus stopped and the cops might get called.

I don't know if I made this clear or not. Perhaps not. I stopped my bus plenty of times and I even do that every day with typical children until they seat themselves.

The bus I had with gang members had only gang members on the bus. When I had students that were being beaten on the bus and picked on, it was clear that such a student was a wannabe and was taken off the bus by my recommendation and even the gang's obvious recommendation. He didn't belong there. He wanted their approval but they weren't going to give it. He was removed and sent over to the school that had people like him and those whose parents had been in the mafia and those who had been raped, etc.

Police were called when weapons were found on the bus and police greeted my bus when we got to the school grounds and I had several cop cars follow the bus all the way to their homes during the time I did that route. They are not scared of the cops. They know all of them by first name.

[Noclevername]

The only time cops came near my high school was when the DEA searched lockers for drugs.*

Out of sheer frustration, I physically assaulted my high school principal in my freshmen year (it was what I'd learned from my experiences). I vaguely recall screaming something like "Why won't you DO anything?" as I did so. No police were called and the only consequence was that I was expelled-- which was the best gift they could have given me. It got me out of that hole and gave me a chance to go to a much more caring school where behavior was actually watched and corrected.

But it was too little too late; by then after years of being punished for being different I associated "school" with "torment" and was still fairly miserable.


*EDIT: And for bomb threats. Can't forget the bomb threats.

[Solfe]

I wouldn't exactly say never. But; it's close enough.
I was one of those exceptions where I eventually did "man-up".

It's not just about a sadist jerk, it's a group mentality. Perhaps instigated by that jerk, but it turns the whole group against you.

Maybe I have a warped sense of morality (which is more likely than not), but if "man-up" means defending yourself physically, that is not "two to tango". That is a viable response to being bullied. Sadly, it might also be measured and appropriate for the circumstances.

If one does not have a life worth defending then one will not defend himself or herself. The children I had were not a hairsbreadth from jail. They already were in jail and the bus drivers who dealt with them for years insisted that leaving the school do the disciplining tells the kids that you cannot do things yourself. The bus driver is the adult and they are not and the whole purpose of that rehab was to keep them out of jail in that particular program. Those bus drivers who like dealing with those situations do so because they know they have the social skills to get their buses quiet that most teachers cannot achieve and they do it without dragging the parents or the school into the situation. You ought to realize that violence is a form of pleasure to the gangs that they are addicted to violence. They even sense themselves as doing justice, implementing capital punishment upon those who they feel deserve it.

The school district you are referring to is just like most all school districts including the one I work in now. If, in the other case, you throw them off the bus, then economics comes into the situation. It costs more money to throw them off then to keep them on the bus. It does so because now they must take a taxi to school.

You seem to be in a special set of circumstance that is atypical for most children, AND perhaps I can only clearly relate to my children's experiences, pre-K to 5th grade in a suburb. From my perspective you are attempting to equate a variety of convicts to kindergarteners.

Personally, I grew up in areas that were prone to violence, so I can relate to gangs in general, but I categorize it under "non-bullying" activities. Cliques are common bullying groups, but there is a huge difference between a clique and a gang.

Gangs and bullies have similar tactics but their drives are completely different. Gang members have actively chosen disregard social norms and will do anything so long as they believe that there is a chance of surviving the consequences. Many times, that belief is wrong and they don't survive or the consequences are much worse than their personal assessment led them to believe. Bullies, on the other hand, believe that they are socially climbing by domination of a social group. They are never at fault and are never the bad guy... in their own opinion. There is no way a bully can be convinced otherwise. This is where gang members and bullies differ - gang members often know right from wrong and choose the wrong while bullies think they are doing no harm.

The results of gang and bully activity may be the same, but the mechanism and drive is completely different.

[blueshift]

Maybe I have a warped sense of morality (which is more likely than not), but if "man-up" means defending yourself physically, that is not "two to tango". That is a viable response to being bullied. Sadly, it might also be measured and appropriate for the circumstances.



You seem to be in a special set of circumstance that is atypical for most children, AND perhaps I can only clearly relate to my children's experiences, pre-K to 5th grade in a suburb. From my perspective you are attempting to equate a variety of convicts to kindergarteners.

There must be some loss of communication right there. Kindergartners were not in the figuring at all. The gangs I had were all high school age and a little older due to repeating grades several times.

Personally, I grew up in areas that were prone to violence, so I can relate to gangs in general, but I categorize it under "non-bullying" activities. Cliques are common bullying groups, but there is a huge difference between a clique and a gang.

Agreed

Gangs and bullies have similar tactics but their drives are completely different. Gang members have actively chosen disregard social norms and will do anything so long as they believe that there is a chance of surviving the consequences. Many times, that belief is wrong and they don't survive or the consequences are much worse than their personal assessment led them to believe. Bullies, on the other hand, believe that they are socially climbing by domination of a social group. They are never at fault and are never the bad guy... in their own opinion. There is no way a bully can be convinced otherwise. This is where gang members and bullies differ - gang members often know right from wrong and choose the wrong while bullies think they are doing no harm.

The results of gang and bully activity may be the same, but the mechanism and drive is completely different.

Here is right where we are in agreement but we have taken the necessary step further. The victim is someone the bully can pick right out of a crowd and the victim is giving signals all the time. Victims (passive bullies) spend lifetimes blaming others and plant halos over their heads, thinking they never bring the world any harm. They have played a big role in the operation of holocausts the world over, making the same impudent excuse, "I was only obeying my orders. If I didn't do it someone else would. The person who ordered me to do this is at fault." I don't respect them. Too many grow up blaming their parents for the way they turned out when siblings right from the same family that were more brutalized didn't turn out that way.

I had a mentor that told me,"All the problems you have lie in the last two weeks of your life. Make a list of all the events you did in the last two weeks and change the list, substituting a few new things to replace older ruts. Keep changing the list every two weeks and one year from now you will look at your parents and realize they are strangers you never really knew. All your anger will melt away and you will realize your problem has been that you have been spending your adulthood dwelling on the first 18 years of your life. What are you going to say to yourself on your 36th birthday? The math tells you what you have been wasting your time doing."

[Solfe]

There must be some loss of communication right there. Kindergartners were not in the figuring at all.

I knew I wasn't understanding what you were saying. Thank you for the clarification and patience.

The victim is someone the bully can pick right out of a crowd and the victim is giving signals all the time. Victims (passive bullies) spend lifetimes blaming others and plant halos over their heads, thinking they never bring the world any harm.

I have never heard of this concept of a passive bully. Is this someone who is seeking disruption rather than dominance?

[starcanuck64]

The gangs I had were all high school age and a little older due to repeating grades several times.AgreedHere is right where we are in agreement but we have taken the necessary step further. The victim is someone the bully can pick right out of a crowd and the victim is giving signals all the time. Victims (passive bullies) spend lifetimes blaming others and plant halos over their heads, thinking they never bring the world any harm. They have played a big role in the operation of holocausts the world over, making the same impudent excuse, "I was only obeying my orders. If I didn't do it someone else would. The person who ordered me to do this is at fault." I don't respect them. Too many grow up blaming their parents for the way they turned out when siblings right from the same family that were more brutalized didn't turn out that way.

I had a mentor that told me,"All the problems you have lie in the last two weeks of your life. Make a list of all the events you did in the last two weeks and change the list, substituting a few new things to replace older ruts. Keep changing the list every two weeks and one year from now you will look at your parents and realize they are strangers you never really knew. All your anger will melt away and you will realize your problem has been that you have been spending your adulthood dwelling on the first 18 years of your life. What are you going to say to yourself on your 36th birthday? The math tells you what you have been wasting your time doing."

I spent several years hospitalized dealing with past trauma, it's not as easy as deciding to not let the past affect you, for some of us at times the struggle to just make it through the next day can be monumental(I didn't choose for it to be that way, it just was). I also had a few people who seemed very aware of that fact and in very private settings let me know of their intention to push me over the edge, some people have no conscience. I didn't willingly accept the role of victim and I certainly went to a great effort to not inflict my issues on others(not always successfully).

The idea isn't to enable peoples vulnerabilities, but it certainly isn't fair to describe people that in many cases can't help feeling and being vulnerable as the cause of their victimization or worse.

[Gillianren]

I think the idea that the victim is just as much at fault as the bully is ridiculous. In many cases, what the victim did to get picked on is be born somehow different. I also think the mentor who claims that the last two weeks of your life shaped who you are is a lousy mentor who needs to go learn some actual psychology.

[blueshift]

I think the idea that the victim is just as much at fault as the bully is ridiculous.

You are still looking at "fault" as being an issue here. It isn't. The social relationship between both parties is the issue and both have to be dealt with, one differently than the other. I just had another case of this come up this week on my bus. One child complained of a girl picking on him so I told him to sit next to me and away from her in the future if he felt safer. Guess who he sat right next to all the way at the back of the bus the next day? Her!

In many cases, what the victim did to get picked on is be born somehow different.

People in the 60s who had been getting picked on did something about it. Many I knew said it actually was not a choice to develop courage at all to seek justice. The choice was between either getting lynched in isolation in shame or dying alongside your friends in the streets. Legislation being passed was not on their minds at all during those moments. 2. I saw someone who has both his eyes blown right out of his sockets along with his nose, teeth and tongue and then had the VA tell him that he could not have facial surgery because they thought it was cosmetic. He stood his ground and confronted and won. Who do you know had it that bad? He still lives to this day in Indiana, unable to remember what color is but he got on with his life, leaving more of the past buried than a lot have.

I also think the mentor who claims that the last two weeks of your life shaped who you are is a lousy mentor who needs to go learn some actual psychology.

However, what each person has done in the last two weeks has perpetuated the problems of the past and the issues can be dealt with right away. I did it and it worked. He took care of his elders until they died and was the backbone of that family. I took care of my dying parents right to their deaths and was viewed in the same light. Using that method launched me into study areas that included physics, chemistry, astronomy and enabled us to predict a future computer revolution in 1960, including the major impacts upon the society from that. We have had many psychologists admit that we were ahead of our time and it is they who agreed with the method. You haven't tried it so don't knock it until you do. I know too many 58 yr olds still whimpering about their childhood who spent their entire adulthood crying about the first 18 yrs of their life.

[blueshift]

I knew I wasn't understanding what you were saying. Thank you for the clarification and patience.



I have never heard of this concept of a passive bully. Is this someone who is seeking disruption rather than dominance?

Passive bullies dominate by forcing the center of attention upon them. Class clowns do that along with others. They do seek dominance and use disruption as a tool. Anyway, that is what the principal at the one school told me. I was simply puzzled by the behavior of one student who was acting like a goofy but cute kid (boys often do that in sixth grade, not wanting to grow up so they act grown down) and getting attention from the girls, getting them to throw paper wads at him. While he wasn't shoving anyone or threatening them I became puzzled and brought it first to my dispatcher's attention and then to the principal's attention. The principal called it a form of bullying. According to that school system there are many forms of bullying just as there are many forms of stalking. One pattern does not fit all. Bullies tend to change their patterns to gain dominance. If they can't overwhelm you with brute they will overwhelm you with sorrow, laying the burden on others to solve their issues.

[blueshift]

I spent several years hospitalized dealing with past trauma, it's not as easy as deciding to not let the past affect you, for some of us at times the struggle to just make it through the next day can be monumental(I didn't choose for it to be that way, it just was). I also had a few people who seemed very aware of that fact and in very private settings let me know of their intention to push me over the edge, some people have no conscience. I didn't willingly accept the role of victim and I certainly went to a great effort to not inflict my issues on others(not always successfully).

The idea isn't to enable peoples vulnerabilities, but it certainly isn't fair to describe people that in many cases can't help feeling and being vulnerable as the cause of their victimization or worse.

But you did change what you did and you did make likely more changes every two weeks without listing them at all. Sure you weren't successful with each change you attempted but those attempts were a part of what gave you a patience that you never had before and now you are a better person for it. The bullies who messed with you are likely spiraling so far out of control that authorities of some form or another are baby sitting them to greater degrees than in the past..Your feeling vulnerable is not the cause of your victimization. The whole situation is and you did something about it.

[Gillianren]

Seriously . . . never go into mental health care. Don't mentor. Just . . . let people with more understanding of psychology handle these things.

[Tobin Dax]

2. I saw someone who has both his eyes blown right out of his sockets along with his nose, teeth and tongue and then had the VA tell him that he could not have facial surgery because they thought it was cosmetic. He stood his ground and confronted and won. Who do you know had it that bad? He still lives to this day in Indiana, unable to remember what color is but he got on with his life, leaving more of the past buried than a lot have.

I have been in a similar situation with insurance companies, and I know at least one other person who likely has, too. (Of me, your acquaintance, and mine, only I was born different.) But what does this have to do with schoolyard bullies? Bringing up adults and medical insurance is moving the goalposts.

Better yet, how is this a counter to Gillian's point? Kids who are born different or become different through events outside of their control could both be targets of bullying only because they are different. And for kids, it can be hard to just "get on with your life."

[blueshift]

I have been in a similar situation with insurance companies, and I know at least one other person who likely has, too. (Of me, your acquaintance, and mine, only I was born different.) But what does this have to do with schoolyard bullies? Bringing up adults and medical insurance is moving the goalposts.

Better yet, how is this a counter to Gillian's point? Kids who are born different or become different through events outside of their control could both be targets of bullying only because they are different. And for kids, it can be hard to just "get on with your life."

Okay then it should be pointed out that no one is talking about "getting on with your life here." If I moved the goal posts then that was not the intention. It was relating to the severity of being overwhelmed and being bullied is being overwhelmed and so it being blind.

But back to the issue you raised.. Being different is something someone had to realize that is part of the situation but that has to be looked at with more scrutiny. The bully might be addicted to becoming violent and simply finds any excuse to become violent. Prejudices might only be the excuse to become violent instead of some hatred for a particular group of people and seeking retribution.

From my own view, for what it is worth, integration had many definitions in the past but the one that stood out the most was watching people passively walk into neighborhoods where they were hated, attempting to build a bridge between themselves and people they were hated by and who they felt hatred for. To build a bridge between oneself and those we either hate, are bored with or are indifferent to is to integrate and help build bridges with those in our families we are at odds with. Likewise, to build a bridge between ourselves and subject matters we are bored with, hate or are indifferent to is the journey into education. Again, this is my own view.

[blueshift]

Seriously . . . never go into mental health care. Don't mentor. Just . . . let people with more understanding of psychology handle these things.

I have relatives in mental health care. My ex is one and she asks me for advice...why I am not sure but many ask it because of the relationship I have with children, in particular my son, and has brought more respect from their kids than they could get. Yet, I am not naive about those situations because, since I don't live with others' kids on a 24 hour basis, I am seen like a favorite uncle, someone who just seems more calm than their own parent.

btw- I don't mentor in mental health but I do in science outreaches to the public. I usually leave mental health issues unless bus related issues come up and those in mental health care are steering us right in this direction and I pick a lot of it from them and others - parents and neuroscientists in the support group for autism I belong to in Elk Grove, Illinois and my bus company as two examples. I admit to being lucky and coming up with a few workable practices but there are areas I am not as familiar with as they are.

You can really tell that it must be cloudy and raining in Illinois. I never post this much. I had the Mallincam packed in as rain started to hit our heads and then, when the mount was finally tucked away into its case and the rear hatch of my pickup was shut, the heavens opened up. Whew!

[vonmazur]

Guys: When I was being bullied by the "usual suspects", at Travis AFB in CA in the late 50's, my Dad made me take self defense classes. Akido to be precise (and Kendo too). It was fun to see the Jocks on the ground, when I just moved out of the way and let them fall....This training came in handy in two tours of duty in Nam....I am eternally grateful to My Father and the instructors who showed me a way to avoid confrontations. It did not solve all the problems, after all, Bullies are suffering from some sort of neurosis, but it enabled me to avoid fights...and a visit to the VP for Boys at Vacaville HS...

Dale

[Van Rijn]

[...] The victim is someone the bully can pick right out of a crowd and the victim is giving signals all the time. Victims (passive bullies) spend lifetimes blaming others and plant halos over their heads, thinking they never bring the world any harm. [...]

Seriously . . . never go into mental health care. Don't mentor. Just . . . let people with more understanding of psychology handle these things.

I agree with Gillian.

Blueshift, whatever your intention, you're walking through a minefield with those word choices. I would suggest you never put the words "victim" and "passive bully" together that way again. If somebody reacts badly to it (and if you say it enough, you're almost certain to find someone who will react badly), they aren't going to listen to attempted justification - no, they stopped listening past the description of victims as self-righteous, attention-seeking bullies. The results . . . well, it's the sort of thing you hear about on a news report.

[blueshift]

The minefield wasn't put there by me. 39 yrs of experience in raising an Asperger's child in a drug and gang neighborhood along with 6 yrs of having to transport extreme cases does. Having to know precise " seizure limit times" for students' meds to kick in or fail to kick in and having professionals right on the bus with me has provided a sense of having some expertise although it is limited. It is mental health that is starting to throw the words "victim" and "passive bully" together. How long that lasts is uncertain.

Now if someone wishes to shut things out and not listen then another minefield could explode. Psychology goes through changes just as any field of science does and nomenclature is always changing. Pluto is no longer a planet. I think they are realizing that simply protecting the "innocent" and pointing a finger at and punishing the "guilty" does not resolve problems that keep multiplying with applied therapies failing. So they must push into new territory. News reports of Asperger's children exploding with violence of retribution is what is trying to be avoided. Therapy for the "victim" - even long continuous therapy for victims - is a part of recognizing that the "victim" has played a major role in the process of bullying. The overt bully can't exist without the passive bully - a victim that overpowers the bully in a subtle way, playing an unwanted role.

All of us bully someone in a subtle way. We all need to be searching for it on a continuous basis.

My own son's future after I die does frighten me. I am the only companion he wishes for a friend and he won't seek any advice from any professional. He only has taken it from me and I am aware that if he doesn't seek outside help from a professional then he won't be registered with the state as my nephews, nieces and oldest sister are. That will disqualify him from assistance he may be eligible for. He works two jobs but only his part-time job is solid and supplies the majority of his benefits along with helping here by paying rent as a contribution of his share of responsibilities. But he takes things literally when things are put in writing and that can lead to complications that he has needed me to stop and sort out. He succeeds most in a place like Motorola, his day time job that he has done as a temp for several years. There change is a part of a daily ritual, giving him the skill to adapt in regimented way. We do the same thing in our home, making change a ritual with menus not just for our weekly meals but menus for changes in the social areas as well. He was bullied in junior high but high school became a place where aggressive personalities would respect and protect him in subtle ways. They left him alone but knew he was too odd to hang around. He never sought friendships and that kept peer pressure away from him, leaving him with a drug - free life. When Asperger's kids seek acceptance is where a lot run into brick walls and getting picked on occurs with higher incidence. Now that gangs and bullies are aware of autism more than they were in the past they are backing off from them more and more. Mainstreaming such children is where things can explode because once one is mainstreamed they are not allowed to use their condition as a reason for bad behavior and they get thrown into the same classes and detention centers as do gangs and bullies. So many parents forbid their kids to be mainstreamed and that leads to other complications. That is why the minefield is there and can't go away as of yet.

[starcanuck64]

We all live as part of a larger community and we need to fit in to some degree or another, very few individuals have the ability to live without the constant social contact most take for granted.

Many of us also live in societies where violence and abuse is endemic, whether we want to accept it or not. I find it highly unlikely that the elderly, the very young or the disabled choose to put up with or seek violence and abuse that's quite often inflicted on them in the way blueshift describes in his earlier post. Comparing victims of bullying(did I read that right) to some of the most sociopathic individuals in history also seems truly bizarre to me, the victims of the Holocaust were the ones slaughtered in the gas chambers and shooting galleries, not the ones doing it.

In most modern societies we don't accept assault, harassment, stalking, sexual assault, threatening and murder because of the damage it does to individuals and society as a whole. Bullying is the same, if you read Solfe's post his son was being assaulted by another child, something that if done in the workplace or on the street in front of witnesses would likely result in the police being called and charges laid.

We no longer live on the savanah and the dominate male or female isn't able to arbitrarily dish out punishment to keep other members in line and troop cohesion intact for survival. We live in highly complex and densely packed conditions for the most part where differences must be accepted and they often make us stronger for it. It's not the victim asking to be attacked that's the problem, it's holdover memes from a time when it was necessary for violence to be used for the benefit of the group, it no longer has a place in modern society IMO.

As far as the OP goes, assaulting someone who's assaulted you is still a crime, the responsible thing is to use the administrative or legal system to assert the basic rights we've evolved to reflect the vast social changes that our species has gone through in the last 10,000 or more years. "The law of the jungle" only applies to people who seem convinced we still live there.

[Moose]

Blueshift, stop digging, please. Put the shovel down. Seriously. You are not doing yourself any good right now.

[starcanuck64]

But you did change what you did and you did make likely more changes every two weeks without listing them at all. Sure you weren't successful with each change you attempted but those attempts were a part of what gave you a patience that you never had before and now you are a better person for it. The bullies who messed with you are likely spiraling so far out of control that authorities of some form or another are baby sitting them to greater degrees than in the past..Your feeling vulnerable is not the cause of your victimization. The whole situation is and you did something about it.

I missed this, it's hard to be objective about something so close to home.

Yes, I did change things slowly over many years and with intensive and often very expensive help. I feel fortunate that there were generations of researchers and therapists who'd gone to the great effort of working out the details of psychology and brain chemistry to produce the drugs and therapy that I almost certainly wouldn't be here without. That's my point, we all live with and part of a much greater whole, and there are holdover "habits" from much earlier times that constantly threaten to tear that apart. You can't point to one group or individual and say they're to blame, even Hitler had millions to do his bidding and from my perspective people like him are the weakest among us not the strongest, because they are the most regressive.

It's complex and no one should be scapegoated when it comes to issues like this, but I also believe that we're way past the point of needing to put up with such culturally immature behavior.

[DonM435]

At the first high school that I attended, it was generally understood that the freshmen would be harassed. The school made it easy for the others by making everyone wear a necktie color-coded to his class. I.e., you didn't have to recognize someone in order to attack him, just had to know your colors, and most of their students could at least manage that. My response was to get away from the school as quickly as possible and to shuck the tie at first opportunity at day's end. It was really just the sophomores that you had to avoid.

[starcanuck64]

But back to the issue you raised.. Being different is something someone had to realize that is part of the situation but that has to be looked at with more scrutiny. The bully might be addicted to becoming violent and simply finds any excuse to become violent. Prejudices might only be the excuse to become violent instead of some hatred for a particular group of people and seeking retribution.

The meme I was referring to may have a genetic component.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisoc...ality_disorder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

A small but significant proportion of the population have no capacity for empathy or compassion, effectively no conscience. They don't need a reason to behave in an anti-social fashion, it's almost what they're genetically programmed to do.

[Noclevername]

39 yrs of experience in raising an Asperger's child in a drug and gang neighborhood along with 6 yrs of having to transport extreme cases does.

Your experience with those selected for extreme behavior has, IMO, given you a somewhat skewed view. There are many other kinds of bullies and victims, and most of us who have been bullied have been among unfiltered populations of average kids.

Having to know precise " seizure limit times" for students' meds to kick in or fail to kick in and having professionals right on the bus with me has provided a sense of having some expertise although it is limited.

That sounds kind of like saying "I fly a lot in planes with pilots on them, so I feel like I know how to fly."

It is mental health that is starting to throw the words "victim" and "passive bully" together. How long that lasts is uncertain.

"Mental health" is hardly of one mind on that subject. The majority of MH professionals that I have dealt with seem to regard victims as actual victims.

[swampyankee]

The school district you are referring to is just like most all school districts including the one I work in now. If, in the other case, you throw them off the bus, then economics comes into the situation. It costs more money to throw them off then to keep them on the bus. It does so because now they must take a taxi to school.

In Connecticut, students may be suspended from transportation -- buses -- to and from school. Being suspended from transportation but not school means it's the parents' responsibility to get the kid to and from school: " Any such board may authorize the administration to suspend transportation services for any pupil whose conduct while awaiting or receiving transportation to and from school endangers persons or property or is violative of a publicized policy of such board." (http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/chap170.htm)

[Van Rijn]

It is mental health that is starting to throw the words "victim" and "passive bully" together. How long that lasts is uncertain.

I looked it up. I couldn't find any reference that claims victims, without qualification, are bullies. However, I did find the term "passive bully." That refers to a subset of bullies that don't usually initiate an event, they just wait for another bully to attack a victim and get in on it. The "me-too" types. Clearly, this is very different from what you were talking about when you used the term "passive bully."

I also found a definition of a separate subtype of bully, referred to as the "bully-victim." This is a subset of bullies that were victimized themselves and copied the bullying behavior of others. There is nothing in the definition of a bully-victim that requires them to be passive, nor is it suggested that all victims are, or become, bullies. This is also very different from what you were saying.

News reports of Asperger's children exploding with violence of retribution is what is trying to be avoided.

That's ironic. Set aside Asperger's syndrome for a moment. Say there's some kid that's been the victim of bullying, and now you've told them that they are a self-righteous, attention-seeking bully that should just stop dwelling on their past. If you're lucky, they'll ignore that as nonsense. If you aren't lucky, they might well react violently, either turning inwards or outwards. They might decide things are completely hopeless, or they might decide that if they are supposed to be a bully, they might as well act like it.

Which is why I say that you're walking through a minefield. As Moose says, stop digging.

[blueshift]

Blueshift, stop digging, please. Put the shovel down. Seriously. You are not doing yourself any good right now.

But Moose, I got a lot of good feedback and I won't need to dig any further. Now I can compare what inputs came here with the ones I am getting from the different schools here to the other bus drivers I work with and can exchange many of these definitions and views with the particular principal who raised the issue of passive bullying. Not all the other principals in the district agree with him and take some of the stances issued here. The definition of passive bullying I read here in an earlier post differs and I am not interested in defending my position as much as doing my job as accurately as possible. It is not a job to those who posted here but it is to me. The more inputs I received the better and the last page here got down to better feedback. Digging is a habit we all got from hanging around science and, in this instance, it paid off. I thank all for their inputs whether there was just simple losses of communication or issues brought up bred more complexity.

[starcanuck64]

One more point, and I'll try not to get so abstract...I think that was years of self-examination bleeding through.

Until we as adults both on an individual and institutional level find other ways to express and assert our interests besides violence and intimidation, children are going to emulate us. Example is a far more powerful teacher than instruction.

[NEOWatcher]

Maybe I have a warped sense of morality (which is more likely than not), but if "man-up" means defending yourself physically, that is not "two to tango". That is a viable response to being bullied. Sadly, it might also be measured and appropriate for the circumstances.

In my case it was just a matter of growing up... "taking it like a man" (sorry Gillian, but that's just a common expression).
Once I left the whiny stage, things improved.

I don't consider a physical confrontation to be "bullying". At some point it's actually assault.