in the market for a first scope - need advice

[skrap1r0n]

so I have been looking off and on for quite a few years into getting a telescope. I have never pulled the trigger. I figure I am 6 to 8 months out from getting one.

I want one good enough to keep me interested. I have had smaller ones 4" reflectors on a bad equitorial mount. I spent more time futzing around with it than looking through it.

Because of this, I am looking at a 10" Dob, the Orion XT10i. I like the idea of push to on the dob rather than goto. I want ot learn how to star hop to what I want to look at and I want to be able to gather enough light to see more detail in deep sky objects.

Now here is my big question... is there any reason that in the future, this tube couldn't be mounted on a decent equitorial mount, providing that the mount was beefy enough to handle it or is that a bad idea?

Thanks in advance.

[redshifter]

so I have been looking off and on for quite a few years into getting a telescope. I have never pulled the trigger. I figure I am 6 to 8 months out from getting one.

I want one good enough to keep me interested. I have had smaller ones 4" reflectors on a bad equitorial mount. I spent more time futzing around with it than looking through it.

Because of this, I am looking at a 10" Dob, the Orion XT10i. I like the idea of push to on the dob rather than goto. I want ot learn how to star hop to what I want to look at and I want to be able to gather enough light to see more detail in deep sky objects.

Now here is my big question... is there any reason that in the future, this tube couldn't be mounted on a decent equitorial mount, providing that the mount was beefy enough to handle it or is that a bad idea?

Thanks in advance.

Kudos to you for not giving up even after your experience with the 4" refractor on a rickety/low quality mount - those scopes (or more acurately, those mounts)have killed the astronomy interest for many folks over the decades! Note there are very good equatorial mounts out there, but they are not cheap.

IMO a dob is a great 'first scope', and can last many years. I have the Orion XT10 dob, and I had the XT8 before that. They are great scopes 'out of the box', and with minor modifications can perform even better. I have the 'non intelliscope' version which is fine with me, IMO finding objects myself is half the fun.

You 'might' be able to get an equatorial mount stable enough to handle that tube, but it won't come cheap, and may not even exist. A better option would be to investigate a poncet platform type setup, it'll be a lot more stable and probably a lot less $ than a good equatorial. Here's an example: http://www.equatorialplatforms.com/

Here's highly recommended reading for anyone looking for that first scope: http://scopereviews.com/begin.html

[skrap1r0n]

Thanks for the response. I'm checking out those links now.

I'm guessing it's not just about the weight then? For example, the tube weight for the XT10 is 29.9lbs. The orion Atlas GOTO equitorial mount has a weight rating of 40 lbs. could these two not be used together? I feel like i am missing something, because a 10" lightbucket on a solid EQ mount seems like it might be a pretty good combo.

[redshifter]

Thanks for the response. I'm checking out those links now.

I'm guessing it's not just about the weight then? For example, the tube weight for the XT10 is 29.9lbs. The orion Atlas GOTO equitorial mount has a weight rating of 40 lbs. could these two not be used together? I feel like i am missing something, because a 10" lightbucket on a solid EQ mount seems like it might be a pretty good combo.

It's not just the weight of the tube, which I'd consider pretty high for an equatorial mount, but the length of the tube (~44 in) that has to be balanced as well. IMO you'd be FAR better off with the poncet platform setup - cheaper and likely much more stable. Or, if you have dreams of astrophotography - and that's why you're looking for an equatorial mount for your potential dob purchase - you might consider getting the 10" dob as a visual only scope, then look into a dedicated astrophotograpy rig down the road.

My guess is that if you mounted the dob tube on an equatorial mount after experiencing the inherent stability of the dob mount, you'd end up disappointed.

[RickJ]

My guess is that if you mounted the dob tube on an equatorial mount after experiencing the inherent stability of the dob mount, you'd end up disappointed.

One of our club members moved his 10" f/4.8 dob to an Atlas mount. He foolishly sold the rocker box and Poncet platform. Took him a year, but he gave up and bought a new Poncet platform and made a new rocker box. The hassle of the equatorial mount was just too much. Not as steady in a breeze or when focusing either. Others considering the same, after using his system at star parties suddenly were very happy with their Dob's after all.

Unless you have more money than most of us I'd attend a few star parties where others have tried this move and see how you like the experience before spending your money. Of course if you are going the astrophography route you will need such a mount. But then the Atlas isn't enough for a 10" in my opinion. I did use a 10" f/5 on a similar mount for a while for astrophotography and could get it to work -- sometimes. More often than not I spent most of the night fighting the mount rather than collecting photons.

Weight says nothing about lever arm! A long tube puts lots of leverage on a mount a short tube of the same weight doesn't. So while the Atlas is usable visually with a 10" SCT it isn't all that great for a scope with two or more times that tube length. While the longer tube is pushed more by any force it also makes a great pendulum so once it starts vibrating it will take some time to damp that out when the tube is long compared to a short tube. The problem is with most EQ mounts the center of gravity isn't over the center of the support. It's out over empty space. This takes some expensive engineering to over come. A Dob keeps the CG directly over the azimuth bearing at all times making for a very solid configuration. All major observatories built in the last 20 years use alt azimuth mounted scopes that keep the CG over the support. It makes for a far cheaper and much more reliable mounting. Before computers this wasn't possible now it is the way it is done for any but the smallest of systems. You do have to account for image rotation with such mounts. So it isn't often seen in amateur level gear for astrophotography. Since rotation isn't an issue visually it is becoming rather common for go-to scopes used visually. Some astrophotographers are using image rotators with great results but it adds a level of complication most don't deal with. I expect that to change in the not too distant future.

Rick

[otakenji]

There are no quick and easy answers to what kind of telescope you should buy. You need to make an educated purchase. I would suggest you read the book StarWare by Phil Harrington before you spend any money.

[skrap1r0n]

I think I am going to wind up with a 10" Dob. if things pan out, I'll go from there. I am trying to decide if I want to get it with the computer and tracking or just a base model.

[Kebsis]

Hey... I'm in the market for a scope also. The XT10 and XT8 look nice but seem large; I'll be doing a lot of traveling with mine so I want something that's not too heavy and easy to set up. Are the XT's made more for staying in one place?

[theloniusmonkey]

so I have been looking off and on for quite a few years into getting a telescope. I have never pulled the trigger. I figure I am 6 to 8 months out from getting one.

I want one good enough to keep me interested. I have had smaller ones 4" reflectors on a bad equitorial mount. I spent more time futzing around with it than looking through it.

Because of this, I am looking at a 10" Dob, the Orion XT10i. I like the idea of push to on the dob rather than goto. I want ot learn how to star hop to what I want to look at and I want to be able to gather enough light to see more detail in deep sky objects.

Now here is my big question... is there any reason that in the future, this tube couldn't be mounted on a decent equitorial mount, providing that the mount was beefy enough to handle it or is that a bad idea?

Thanks in advance.

I sometimes do little seminars at astronomy club gatherings for first time scope buyers. One time for a group of high end clients we even set up 8 scopes on Mauna Kea and these folks came out from the mainland, tried out the various options and so forth. Not that you need to go to one of these Mauna Kea things. Pretty expensive and a bit of overkill to say the least flying out Mauna Kea way to decide what first scope to buy. But my group has had a great deal of practical success doing this sort of thing locally now and then. Where I am heading with all of this if it isn't obvious is to ask the question, "What have you done research wise for yourself to try out this that and the other thing scope wise?" Buying scopes is a little bit like buying a bicycle. Some bicycles look great but do not ride well. Some bicycles do ride well, but not for everyone. Simply not the right bike for me but might be for you. And different people want to do different things with their bikes and likewise telescopes. I'd recommend if you haven't done so already that you hook up with a local astronomy club. There are plenty out there. See what other people are using and doing with their telescopes and work toward making an informed decision for yourself based on your interests and needs. Sounds like you will be successful. By that I mean you seem enthusiastic about it and so I suspect you'll have a lot of fun. Good Luck!

[redshifter]

Hey... I'm in the market for a scope also. The XT10 and XT8 look nice but seem large; I'll be doing a lot of traveling with mine so I want something that's not too heavy and easy to set up. Are the XT's made more for staying in one place?

How much travel, and what kind? The XT scopes (and dobs in general), are VERY easy to set up. Easiest of all types of scopes IMO, esp if you have a solid tube dob. Just plunk the mount down, put the tube on the mount, and you're observing. You may need to check the collimation as well, which takes a few min. once you get the hang of it. My XT10 tends to hold collimation well, so usually only needs a check before I load in in the car.

As far as travel, I've taken my scope on several road trips: Arizona, Nevada (2x), and countless trips to the mtns. east of my area. A solid tube dob takes a fair amount of space, if you have a smaller car, you'll want to measure your trunk and back seat to make sure it'll fit. My XT10's tube is 48in. long. If you have a truss style dob, those can sometimes fit all components on a front passenger seat. If you're looking for a scope you can lug up a hiking trail, forget about it. Although that would be the case for most scopes.

[Kebsis]

How much travel, and what kind? The XT scopes (and dobs in general), are VERY easy to set up. Easiest of all types of scopes IMO, esp if you have a solid tube dob. Just plunk the mount down, put the tube on the mount, and you're observing. You may need to check the collimation as well, which takes a few min. once you get the hang of it. My XT10 tends to hold collimation well, so usually only needs a check before I load in in the car.

As far as travel, I've taken my scope on several road trips: Arizona, Nevada (2x), and countless trips to the mtns. east of my area. A solid tube dob takes a fair amount of space, if you have a smaller car, you'll want to measure your trunk and back seat to make sure it'll fit. My XT10's tube is 48in. long. If you have a truss style dob, those can sometimes fit all components on a front passenger seat. If you're looking for a scope you can lug up a hiking trail, forget about it. Although that would be the case for most scopes.

Thanks for your reply. I live in a very bright area (just a few miles from NYC) so most of my observing will be done away from home. Mostly in houses though, and I'm not planning on doing any hiking with my equipment.

I'm also somewhat interested in getting into photography, and I've heard that EQ mounts are considered superior for that, is that true?

[redshifter]

Thanks for your reply. I live in a very bright area (just a few miles from NYC) so most of my observing will be done away from home. Mostly in houses though, and I'm not planning on doing any hiking with my equipment.

I'm also somewhat interested in getting into photography, and I've heard that EQ mounts are considered superior for that, is that true?

First off, I recommend not observing from inside a house if that's what you meant in your post. Looking at objects through a window, one that is radiating heat no less, will add a lot of distortion to your veiws.

Not sure what your level of experience is, but unless you've got considerable experience with visual astronomy, telescope mounts, photography, and the sky in general; you're better off focusing on visual astronomy for now. Take the time to learn the sky and the various types of equipment necessary before going the astrophoto route. Astrophotography is a pretty steep learning curve for experienced stargazers. Beginners would probably find it frustrating at best.

Here is HIGHLY recommended reading: http://scopereviews.com/begin.html

Here's a pertinent excerpt:
Avoid any thoughts of astrophotography for now. You are going to have your hands full dealing with the scope itself. Trust me. More astronomers leave the hobby due to excessive involvement with astrophotography than for any other reason, save the cheap department store telescopes.

[Kebsis]

First off, I recommend not observing from inside a house if that's what you meant in your post. Looking at objects through a window, one that is radiating heat no less, will add a lot of distortion to your veiws.

Not sure what your level of experience is, but unless you've got considerable experience with visual astronomy, telescope mounts, photography, and the sky in general; you're better off focusing on visual astronomy for now. Take the time to learn the sky and the various types of equipment necessary before going the astrophoto route. Astrophotography is a pretty steep learning curve for experienced stargazers. Beginners would probably find it frustrating at best.

Here is HIGHLY recommended reading: http://scopereviews.com/begin.html

Here's a pertinent excerpt:
Avoid any thoughts of astrophotography for now. You are going to have your hands full dealing with the scope itself. Trust me. More astronomers leave the hobby due to excessive involvement with astrophotography than for any other reason, save the cheap department store telescopes.

Thanks, I'll take a look at that link. Also, I'm considering taking the roof off of the house to facilitate better star gazing.

[schlaugh]

Thanks for the response. I'm checking out those links now.

I'm guessing it's not just about the weight then? For example, the tube weight for the XT10 is 29.9lbs. The orion Atlas GOTO equitorial mount has a weight rating of 40 lbs. could these two not be used together? I feel like i am missing something, because a 10" lightbucket on a solid EQ mount seems like it might be a pretty good combo.

I did precisely that - mounted an Orion XT-10 on the Atlas EQ mount. It works great! And it weighs a ton! I think Orion found some engineers from the Victorian era to design the mounting attachments.

EQ mounts are great if you want try your hand at photography and/or really want to use RA and DEC coordinates. But for casual eyeball-only gazing, stick to the Dob mount or a Poncet.

I've broken out my old dob mount and use it much more frequently than the Atlas. Some day I may have some land on which to build a small observatory, and then I'll mount the Atlas to a tube anchored in a concrete platform.

[theloniusmonkey]

First off, I recommend not observing from inside a house if that's what you meant in your post. Looking at objects through a window, one that is radiating heat no less, will add a lot of distortion to your veiws.

Not sure what your level of experience is, but unless you've got considerable experience with visual astronomy, telescope mounts, photography, and the sky in general; you're better off focusing on visual astronomy for now. Take the time to learn the sky and the various types of equipment necessary before going the astrophoto route. Astrophotography is a pretty steep learning curve for experienced stargazers. Beginners would probably find it frustrating at best.

Here is HIGHLY recommended reading: http://scopereviews.com/begin.html

Here's a pertinent excerpt:
Avoid any thoughts of astrophotography for now. You are going to have your hands full dealing with the scope itself. Trust me. More astronomers leave the hobby due to excessive involvement with astrophotography than for any other reason, save the cheap department store telescopes.

Traveling out west to do a few little talks on this very subject. Bored to say the least. Glad I joined the forum. Beats talking to myself en route, en set up.

Ed Ting's article is excellent. A few points worth elaborating on, the value of good binoculars and joining a club.

One stop we'll make on this trip is out to Tonopah(central Nevada between Vegas and Reno) with 3 astronomy clubs. Tonopah is very dark. I think the best place for naked eye and binocular viewing in the continental 48, and I've been everywhere.

http://www.tonopahstartrails.com/howdark1.html

On this outing we'll be focusing on the use of binoculars. No matter what kind of scope one winds up with, a good pair of nocks is essential, and in this day and age, image stabilization(battery powered shake elimination) binoculars is the only way to go. If you want giant binoculars for actual star viewing that is another matter, but for finding groups, star field points of interest and so on, there is nothing like them. I'm sure some here might disagree, but they would be individuals that have never actually worked with them. This is the purpose of our little outing to Tonopah. Try them, a game changer. And for people brand new to the world of understanding the sky at night, a pair of image stabilized nocks would be by far the single best tool to have. Much more useful than any telescope, a telescope being an important second step. I don't work for Canon so I am sure no one would have trouble with me saying this, the Canon 10X30s are great. They even have an 18 X 50 model. Can one really see 7,000 stars on a clear night with the naked eye from the Tonopah trails? How about with nocks? 500,000, ? 750,000 ?

http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=91

The OP of this thread obviously is ready for and needs a scope. But for most new to night sky viewing, binoculars are by far the best, by far the most useful purchase. Nothing even comes remotely close in terms of usefulness, practicality, learning tool value.


Our first stop on this trip is to the Bay Area. We'll be setting up on Mount Sutro in the city's(San Francisco) center , looking east out over the bay then "up" to see a waning gibbous moon under high mag. You'd think people living in the Bay Area wouldn't even bother with scopes because of the light. But that is not true. They play and work with them all the time, both in their backyards type of thing and also lugging them around here and there. We've been doing the Mount Sutro moon viewing sessions for 11 years now.

Joining a club cannot be overemphasized. See what people get into and do in your area based on what's available circumstantially. What tools do they use given their opportunities? The folks walking Tonopah with us will have a very different mind set from those setting up fairly big scopes on Mt Sutro to visualize and perhaps photograph the moon. In the case of the Mount Sutro outing we'll be focusing on photography, specifically photographing the moon. In the case of the Tonopah outing, we'll focus on finding night sky objects with binoculars.

[theloniusmonkey]

so I have been looking off and on for quite a few years into getting a telescope. I have never pulled the trigger. I figure I am 6 to 8 months out from getting one.

I want one good enough to keep me interested. I have had smaller ones 4" reflectors on a bad equitorial mount. I spent more time futzing around with it than looking through it.

Because of this, I am looking at a 10" Dob, the Orion XT10i. I like the idea of push to on the dob rather than goto. I want ot learn how to star hop to what I want to look at and I want to be able to gather enough light to see more detail in deep sky objects.

Now here is my big question... is there any reason that in the future, this tube couldn't be mounted on a decent equitorial mount, providing that the mount was beefy enough to handle it or is that a bad idea?

Thanks in advance.

On the outside chance skrap1rOn that you or anyone is in the Bay Area and want to join us up on the east side of Mount Sutro at 7 pm. Looks like it will be clear. We'll be taking photos of a waning gibbous moon. We are bringing very high end equipment including cameras. These won't be the kind of tools you'll be working with early on. But I think it would be fun for you if you are out our way. That goes for anyone else interested. You can just google map Mount Sutro. There is a big tv tower on its top. Don't let that intimidate you. Just drive up to the east side of the hill(about 900 feet up) where the reservoir is. There is only one road up there on that east side. There will be about a half dozen of us. Awesome night for shooting the moon!

[redshifter]

One stop we'll make on this trip is out to Tonopah(central Nevada between Vegas and Reno) with 3 astronomy clubs. Tonopah is very dark. I think the best place for naked eye and binocular viewing in the continental 48, and I've been everywhere.

http://www.tonopahstartrails.com/howdark1.html

Great comments on binocs! I have 4 pairs...I probably get the most use out of my 8X42's (more for terrestrial observing, but nice for general scanning of the summer Milky Way) and my 25X100's on my heavy duty unimount - AWESOME for summer Milky Way observing. Pretty much anywhere in Nevada is great for dark skies other than the Las Vegas and Reno areas. I've been to Great Basin National Park in E. Nevada twice now. It's incredible with the dark sky, stable atmosphere, and 9000 ft. + elevation at the oberving location.

[theloniusmonkey]

First off, I recommend not observing from inside a house if that's what you meant in your post. Looking at objects through a window, one that is radiating heat no less, will add a lot of distortion to your veiws.

Not sure what your level of experience is, but unless you've got considerable experience with visual astronomy, telescope mounts, photography, and the sky in general; you're better off focusing on visual astronomy for now. Take the time to learn the sky and the various types of equipment necessary before going the astrophoto route. Astrophotography is a pretty steep learning curve for experienced stargazers. Beginners would probably find it frustrating at best.

Here is HIGHLY recommended reading: http://scopereviews.com/begin.html

Here's a pertinent excerpt:
Avoid any thoughts of astrophotography for now. You are going to have your hands full dealing with the scope itself. Trust me. More astronomers leave the hobby due to excessive involvement with astrophotography than for any other reason, save the cheap department store telescopes.

For the most part I agree with the adage that it just doesn't pay to get into astrophotography early on. The hobby's learning curve borders on the vertical. But for the very ambitious, I must say that I have seen some pull this off and do amazingly well, few of these folks employing a 2 scope learn as you go technique, one scope is a more or less dedicated visualizing scope for learning how to navigate the night sky by way of modern optics, and then a second relatively lightweight, portable refractor like an Orion ED80, or Explore Scientific 80 ED APO. This second portable scope is for dedicated astrophotography(I work for neither outfit). Perhaps a little expensive, but then you have the best of both worlds. You can ease into the picture taking hobby with the most beginner friendly set up and go at whatever pace you like. Relatively speaking anyway. I bring this up because last night I shot photos of the moon from Mount Sutro, Mount Davidson, Bernal Heights, and Twin Peaks in S.F. with a guy who had what was for all the world a very modest 80mm f/6 Air-Spaced Triplet ED Apochromatic Refractor. He's only been at this a year(albeit intensely dedicated). He got some incredible images of the moon employing the new Leica Monochrome($8000 black and white only, no color sensitivity, camera). Admittedly the camera is about as far from modest as one can get, about as esoteric a piece of equipment as a ton of money can buy. He had well jerry-rigged his scope set up to work with the Leica (I don't work for Leica either). The shots he got of the moon and other objects in and out of the sky last evening were sensational. This hobbyist has an Orion XT10 set up in his backyard in the California central valley and then he'll drive here and there with his dedicated photo refractor set up learning to take pictures. Granted he was good with a camera before he bought his 2 scopes last year, but still shows it can be done despite the steep learning curve. As of this writing, the black and white images he got with that Leica Monochrome are bar none the best(most crisp) images of the moon I have ever seen taken by an "amateur astrophotographer" and he has been at this for literally only one single solitary year. Not the average new astrophotographer by any stretch. He'd studied the night sky for years with his eyes and binoculars. Granted, this was the moon, not a deep space object. . Long exposure times were not necessary. He came to all of this already handy with a camera, and handy, instinctive, in general with optics equipment. He not only had his scope ready for the Leica Monochrome, but surprised me by using the scope as a telephoto for his Sony RX100(point and shoot with a very big sensor, thought of by many as the very best point and shoot generally available to the public today) and taking shots of the cityscape from its central hills. (No personal connection with Sony either, though I too own a Sony DSC-RX100 and love the thing.) Needless to say, I was certainly impressed to no end with how much progress one can make in a relatively short period of time. Amazing!!!!

[Kebsis]

Hey. I decided to take the advice given in this thread...and order a decent pair of binoculars. They're on their way, and in the meantime I've picked up a cheap red flashlight. Is a planisphere recommended? Which latitude should I buy, since my home is N 40 latitude?

Thanks again!

[theloniusmonkey]

Great comments on binocs! I have 4 pairs...I probably get the most use out of my 8X42's (more for terrestrial observing, but nice for general scanning of the summer Milky Way) and my 25X100's on my heavy duty unimount - AWESOME for summer Milky Way observing. Pretty much anywhere in Nevada is great for dark skies other than the Las Vegas and Reno areas. I've been to Great Basin National Park in E. Nevada twice now. It's incredible with the dark sky, stable atmosphere, and 9000 ft. + elevation at the oberving location.

Seems like we have at least two things in common redshifter, an appreciation for binoculars and an appreciation for Great Basin National Park. Those Bristlecone pine trees always leave me speechless. The first time I saw one was maybe 25 years back, but the awe they inspire never fades. For those not aware, bristlecones are small and very very old trees. Some are 5,000 years old, older than the great pyramid at Giza , and alive they are!

Your 25X100s sound crazy great. I like the little Cannon 10X30s because they are relatively small, fit in a large coat pocket of mine I wear on night's out scanning the evening sky, but for sure they are a long ways from ideal with an exit pupil of 3. Your 8X42s sound perfect in that regard, exit pupil of 5.2 and change and probably not so physically big to be unwieldy. I one time had a long coat altered to acomodate a favorite pair of large binoculars.

I don't believe I expressed myself very well above. It sort of sounded like I was telling a story about rich people going to Mauna Kea for the express purpose of buying a telescope. To better explain and further emphasize a couple points about binoculars I'll clarify. Hawaii is just below the Tropic of Cancer, 23 degrees and change north of the equator. We're talking the latitude of central Mexico, TROPICAL! It's not frankly equatorial, but there are a ton of stars there in that sky that mainlanders have never seen and plenty of casual students of the night sky hip to this fact. Surprising how many of these "amateurs" go to check it all out. I did for that very reason when I was 18, long time back. Sometimes I'll go out there with local(Hawaiian) astronomy groups who've invited people from the mainland, tourists that are just curious, or occasionally a group is organized from the mainland to go and see star groups they have never seen. Obviously, to do this sort of thing you've got to have a little bit in the way of discretionary, cash but calling them "high end" as I did above is really not accurate. Most have some, if not good, if not outstanding experience with night sky viewing already. Some don't own scopes and are interested in buying one, so we do have that set up for them 6-8 scopes to play around with. My post above was misleading in that it implied this is what the trips were all about, scope buying. That is not the case at all. My second favorite part of these Mauna Kea outings is pointing out star groups that we cannot see from further north. My favorite part of the outings is having previously casual students of the night sky find stars with binoculars that they cannot see with the naked eye. It gives them a great sense of discovery and helps to push some to become less casual and more serious about studying the night sky as a hobby.

My experience has been that most thoughtful people who go to these great viewing sites like Great Basin or Mauna Kea walk away enthused and energized to learn and do more. However, as often as not, these folks are not necessarily enthused and energized about telescopes. I'd say in all honesty that thoughtful casual hobbyists tend to be every bit as enthusiastic about the possibilities that regular, or better yet, image stabilized, binocular viewing affords as they are about the prospects of getting a new scope, even if that new scope may be a first scope

[redshifter]

My last trip to Great Basin I had two different small groups of people 'just looking at the stars' at the Mather Overlook while I was setting up. Really made their night when they had an opportunity to look at deep sky objects for the first time. One group was a woman with her two kids. It was fun to see them perk up when I said "Do you guys want to see what a star looks like after it explodes?" From my experince, the objects that seem to get the biggest 'wow factor' to first time viewers-at least in summer-are globulars; specifically M13. Seeing so many stars in a tight little ball is pretty cool!

[theloniusmonkey]

Hey. I decided to take the advice given in this thread...and order a decent pair of binoculars. They're on their way, and in the meantime I've picked up a cheap red flashlight. Is a planisphere recommended? Which latitude should I buy, since my home is N 40 latitude?

Thanks again!

Super smart move Kebsis, buying the binoculars. Forgive me if I go on and on here, but no reason not to, and I will, given my nature and the time I have on my hands here. Thoughts drift through my noggin' regardless of whether I write them down or not. I so love this subject, you seem genuinely interested. May as well write them down. You obviously are curious and will be exploring the night sky as I have and do every evening with binoculars, I'm happy to elaborate all the more on the topic, binoculars as an astronomy tool. Not that I'm the world's foremost expert, but I think I do have something of value to offer newcomers to the world of modern optics since I've been doing this in some capacity both as a hobbyist and professionally for quite some time. I love sharing what I know and "think", especially with a person like yourself who strikes me as so genuinely interested and capable. I'm traveling from the city this evening down to Woodside(beautiful community 20-30 minutes by car south of San Francisco) and from there will go up to Mount Hamilton Saturday/Sunday where the Lick Observatory is located. I'll be meeting with some folks discussing the subject of lens materials. With nothing but time on my hands before my little trip south, cannot think of anything better to do than share what floated through my head after reading about your solid decision to go the binocular route for openers.

Binoculars, there is absolutely no better way to find your way in a general sense around the night sky, from looking at the craters of the moon, to spotting up the Milky Way. The thing about binoculars is that you will never regret their purchase assuming you've bought a halfway decent pair. You can always use them for terrestrial viewing regardless. So many folks plop down $500, $1000, $1500, I've even seen first time buyers lay out $3000 for a first time scope and then the thing collects dust because the newbie winds up being disappointed. They expect to see Hubble quality long exposure type images and the best they get is Jupiter and her moons. They think, "I paid $1500 for this?" They don't understand the reality, and because of that, they really never get started. They'd have been better off to start with a book, planisphere, iphone or android free sky map. But they equate astronomy, night sky hobbying, with telescope and so sort of botch it right out of the blocks.

On the other hand Kebsis, you strike me as being all over it. Your intuition going in is clear, first and foremost, first step, general familiarity with the night sky is key, what's up there from your hometown vantage and how things move, how the star groups and planets pass overhead, day to day, night to night, month to month, season to season. Your own eyes and a pair of binoculars and fundamental sky maps are the key here and it's obvious to me you get that. Good luck with the binoculars and as you move along in the equipment department, don't forget about them. redshifter there has 4 pairs of binoculars, as I do myself. My sense is you'll eventually, get a scope. But even with your scope(s) you'll almost certainly discover that adding to your collection of binoculars will be an inevitability. Redshifter there has a pair of 25X100s. That's a heck of a lot of aperture. I get roughly 78.5 cm squared per lens or 12 square inches per lens=167 cm squared , 24 square inches total for the two lenses. Assuming the glass on those binoculars is good quality, which it sounds like it is, redshifter's ability to collect light with those bad boys is prodigious to say the least. No small wonder he sees the Milky Way so well. Then there's the image stabilization feature on some of the later make binocular models. Assuming you get into this and progress with equipment acquisition, don't forget to avail yourself to that relatively new development in the field of optics. Some star groups are hard enough to get a bead on especially if you are picking up something faint that you can't see with the naked eye. With image stabilization you give yourself the best chance of holding that elusive image for yourself. The power of image stabilization was emphasized for me during a recent terrestrial viewing experience of mine. I was down here just last January courtesy of a generous invitation to see the Packers Forty Niners playoff game. We had good seats, about 16 rows up, midfield, but I always bring my 10X30s(image stabilized) . this guy at the game with me had a pair of Zeiss Conquest binoculars($1000). As I recall his were 10X42. Awesome pair of binoculars , those Zeiss Conquests, do not get me wrong. But, he kept borrowing my image stabilized binoculars(not cheap, but $400, still less than half of what he paid) because he was able to follow things so much better with them. It is not as though we really needed the binoculars at the game, but it became a study in performance my binoculars at less than half the price were way more effective. It was not even close. He'd never been exposed to this sort of technology surprisingly. He became an instant believer because no matter how good your glass is, shake is shake is shake, and if you can get rid of it, it's a whole new ball game.

Long winded way of saying good luck with your new binoculars, but as you progress in all of this, which I am sure you will Kebsis, don't forget about binoculars, a second pair, a third pair for this or that need, this or that situation.

Definitely get the planisphere. Over time, you'll want to more or less have much of it memorized, and I'd be willing to bet in your case you will memorize much of the thing. Get two, a big one for sighting stars with your red light at night and also a pocket one to put in your pocket, backpack, whatever, for reference so that you can play with it in your free time. Three cities to remember that line up well for visualizing 40 degress latitude in the continental United States; New York City and Denver are just about at 40 degrees. San Francisco is a bit shy of 38 degrees north. See the map with the latitudes well marked at the bottom here Kebsis. 40 degrees north lat runs right through the middle of the USA.

http://www.davidchandler.com/nightsky.htm

Where you are in relation to this 40 degree line that bisects the country north/south should make your planisphere choice straightforward.


Commercial software for studying the night sky has come so far so fast. A modest if not small investment can really help immensely I think. Open source stellarium(http://www.stellarium.org/)compares favorably with the commercial(costs you something) programs. Try downloading stellarium Kebsis, punch in your lat and long and have a blast, costs you nothing, and with your binoculars you'll really be on your way, least that is what I think. The thing with this type of software is you can "advance" or reverse time second by second, day by day, week by week , month by month, year by year. How do the constellations pass over head during a given night, how does the stripe of the ecliptic move in your hometown, at your EXACT lat and long month to month, season by season? With software like the open source stellarium program, you can get a feel for how the celestial sphere presents itself over time at your exact location . The night sky changes with time, through time. No better way to see this and learn it than with good software. Check out stellarium Kebsis and take a look at the commercial programs too. In my opinion you get a lot for the buck here and I would venture to say a newcomer to such hobbying with a planisphere, binoculars, basic software and perhaps one of those little iphone/android sky at night programs can make as much progress in a year as pre modern computer era hobbyists made in 3-5 years(or more). I do not believe that is an exaggeration.

Sorry if I went on and on, but you seem so interested Kebsis, and so am I. I imagine in a few months you may well have some tips for me. For the record, in my work capacity, I do not sell any of this stuff discussed, just want to make that abundantly clear. I actually am involved sales wise with a rather expensive niche product, but I do serve as an ambassador of sorts for my group interacting with the astronomy community at large, from academic institutions to clubs to enthusiastic individual hobbyists such as yourself.

Best of luck Kebsis!

[theloniusmonkey]

My last trip to Great Basin I had two different small groups of people 'just looking at the stars' at the Mather Overlook while I was setting up. Really made their night when they had an opportunity to look at deep sky objects for the first time. One group was a woman with her two kids. It was fun to see them perk up when I said "Do you guys want to see what a star looks like after it explodes?" From my experince, the objects that seem to get the biggest 'wow factor' to first time viewers-at least in summer-are globulars; specifically M13. Seeing so many stars in a tight little ball is pretty cool!

What a great story. I think about the children seeing somebody like yourself "doing science" as part of your regular life out of pure joy. As beautiful as the exploding stars and on some level I bet you they got that point as well.

[Thanatos]

A short f tube with a widefield eyepiece is a satisfying and memorable experience. The mount is not so terribly important for visual work, so long as it is not irritatingly shaky. When you get to the point of entering AP, everything changes. Then you need a rock solid mount, as well as other annoying and expensive stuff - and a modicum of patience. It becomes more an obsession than hobby by the time you get the hang of it.

[theloniusmonkey]

Hey. I decided to take the advice given in this thread...and order a decent pair of binoculars. They're on their way, and in the meantime I've picked up a cheap red flashlight. Is a planisphere recommended? Which latitude should I buy, since my home is N 40 latitude?

Thanks again!

Not sure when I'll get to post again, so one last point, when you travel Kebsis take your binoculars. If you go well north or south of your native planisphere region bring your binoculars and the planispehere relevant to that latitude you are visiting. Excellent exercise. The best and most commonly encountered opportunity most of us have is Hawaii just south of the Tropic of Cancer.

[Kebsis]

Thanks for the encouraging words and advice, I appreciate it. Been a little bummed because it's been consistently cloudy since I got my binoculars, but this weekend is supposed to be beautiful so hopefully I'll be able to get out. I got a large and small planisphere, and also decided to pick up the book Nightwatch by Terence Dickinson, which seems highly recommended. I also got the mobile version of Stellarium for my phone (I've actually had the PC version for some time, I enjoy tracking the planets with time sped up and such).

I also ended up with two pairs of binoculars. I ordered a cheap 35 dollar pair of 10x50 Bushnells off of Amazon; the next day, I thought what the heck, I might as well get something nice instead. So I cancelled that order and placed an order for a pair of Nikon Action Extreme 12x50's instead. However, Amazon informed me afterwards that the Bushnells had already shipped, and I would have to either refuse the delivery or return the package when I got it. But I figured they were only thirty bucks, so I might as well keep them as a backup or whatever. They turned out to be a very nice pair too. I especially like the convex focus knob, which seems like it will be very easy to use with gloves on on cold nights. More binocular manufacturers should adopt that design in my opinion. The only thing on them that really feels cheap were the lens caps, which are useless and just fall right off. Not as nice as the Nikon's of course, which I got along with a tripod adapter and are really crystal clear. I'll probably keep the Bushnells in the car for traveling like you recommended.

But I'm rambling. Thanks again, it's great to have such informed people around to help me out!

[redshifter]

Thanks for the encouraging words and advice, I appreciate it. Been a little bummed because it's been consistently cloudy since I got my binoculars, but this weekend is supposed to be beautiful so hopefully I'll be able to get out.

It's common knowledge among us hobbyists that the acquisition of new astro gear is ALWAYS followed by crummy weather. Consider it your official welcome to the hobby!

[Kebsis]

It's common knowledge among us hobbyists that the acquisition of new astro gear is ALWAYS followed by crummy weather. Consider it your official welcome to the hobby!

Well, it's nice to know I'm not alone then, haha.

Last night I got my first clear night with the 'nocs, and it worked out well. I got a nice view of Jupiter, along with several small dots which I believe were it's moons. Even in my light polluted area it was easy to spot Orion and the dippers, with the help of the book I mentioned. The only problem was my cheap, dinky camera tripod wasn't very sturdy and it was hard to keep the image stable. The tripod does have a hook for affixing weights, which I will try next time I'm out. Are there any recommended binocular tripods that aren't too expensive? Also, the tripod I have seems very short, and it's difficult to get a comfortable view when the binos are angled upward...part of the reason I was having trouble keeping it steady. Are there common solutions for heightening tripods to more comfortable levels? I'm thinking about maybe a sturdy platform or something that I could place it on.

I think that eventually I will probably end up going with a decent reflector 'scope, because where I live it's so bright (just 12 miles or so from Manhattan) that planet and moon viewing will probably be what I'll be up to primarily.

[redshifter]

Well, it's nice to know I'm not alone then, haha.

Last night I got my first clear night with the 'nocs, and it worked out well. I got a nice view of Jupiter, along with several small dots which I believe were it's moons. Even in my light polluted area it was easy to spot Orion and the dippers, with the help of the book I mentioned. The only problem was my cheap, dinky camera tripod wasn't very sturdy and it was hard to keep the image stable. The tripod does have a hook for affixing weights, which I will try next time I'm out. Are there any recommended binocular tripods that aren't too expensive? Also, the tripod I have seems very short, and it's difficult to get a comfortable view when the binos are angled upward...part of the reason I was having trouble keeping it steady. Are there common solutions for heightening tripods to more comfortable levels? I'm thinking about maybe a sturdy platform or something that I could place it on.

I think that eventually I will probably end up going with a decent reflector 'scope, because where I live it's so bright (just 12 miles or so from Manhattan) that planet and moon viewing will probably be what I'll be up to primarily.

You might be interested in something like this: http://www.telescope.com/Binoculars/.../75/p/5379.uts However, I've seen this in action, and 80mm binocs were just barely light enough to remain stable on this setup. 70mm and under binocs should be fine with this mount. For other options, check this site: http://universalastronomics.com/ they have a number of binocular mounts and tripods.

For your location, you might be better off with a small refractor scope if you're gonna stick with the moon and planets from your light polluted skies.

[Thanatos]

By the time you move up to 'big' aperatures [>10"] you will become picky about mounts - and you can pretty much kiss goodbye to portability for anything other than a dob. A good EQ mount for AP will easily cost more than your OTA. I have settled on a fork mounted 8" cat for visual, and a 6" RC on a GM8 mount for AP. A GM8 with gemini is a $2500 mount and is merely adequate for my rather rather modest AP rig.