Why I can not have a free discussion with free people from the forum ?

[dapifo]

Ah, at last, the crux of the problem! I assume that what you meant to say was “Possibly the great mistake of modern physics is to assume that everything in modern physics is true.”

If so, you are assuming that modern physics is a bunch of made up ideas that physicists assume are true. This is completely backwards!! Nothing in modern physics was assumed to be true when first proposed. All the ideas, all the little bits and pieces that make up modern mainstream physics, have been subjected to rigorous testing, peer review, matching to observations, again and again and again. And will continue to be. That is the nature of the scientific method. Please, read the Wiki article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method Science is NOT a faith system, it is NOT a “Let’s assume this is true” system of untested ideas. See the quote from korjik below.

CosmoQuest is a summation and a celebration of 1000+ years of meticulous work by thousands and thousands of scientists over millions of person hours using the scientific method, and continuing that work by observing, theorizing, predicting, and analyzing. If you want to post here, be sure you have your facts straight, or evidence to back up ATM ideas.

Go slow. Read. Listen. Learn. Repeat as needed. Don’t get stuck on your own ideas being correct. They might not be. Open mindedness is a 2 way street. If you only look in one direction you will get run over from behind.

Regards, John M.

You didnīt understand to me... I love most of mainstream science !!!
But only some issues do not fit me too well, as well as for many other people...
I get in ATM because an Moderator that it was the place to discuss my RAINBOW proposal...and I understud that it was an open ESPECULATION forum to propse and discuss new ideas.
Seams that there are not a place in the present forum for it...but OK...
If you are interested I can explain why this RAINBOW idea ..."could clarify many things!"...go to http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthre...01#post2047101

[PetersCreek]

I yhink that my questions were a little bit out of mainstream... but within the topic we were talking...

No. That thread is in a forum dedicated to astrophotography. You may not introduce an off-topic ATM concept (which was previously discussed in a closed thread) simply because you ask if it could be photographed.

[...]to see and picture (detect and register) far away objects in the space.

To put it more accurately, you asked about imaging objects "outside of Our Known Universe" and not just far away in space. That makes it far more than just "a little bit out of mainstream" and more than just a little off-topic for that thread. I concur with the moderators who acted in the astrophotography thread and in your closed ATM thread.

Yes, we understand that you want to talk about all kinds of imaginative and speculative things. No, we aren't going to change the rules for you without a compelling reason to do so. I think it's time you accepted that. This thread is just going around in circles.

[slang]

I yhink that my questions were a little bit out of mainstream... but within the topic we were talking...to see and picture (detect and register) far away objects in the space.

You know, I can understand why you would think that. But still, if a moderator tells you different, you should listen, and certainly not argue with the moderator in the thread.

You may not like it that this forum has such tight rules, and that they are enforced rather strictly, but the forum has existed for a long time, and several times the forum members have made it clear that this is an important factor in why they like the forum. Some members don't, and some of those have left. New people come, and some of those stay. We'll see which of those groups you'll feel happy in, I guess. If you still haven't read the rules, and the sticky threads as they might be applicable, please do so. I think it will help make your stay here less frustrating.

[R.A.F.]

You didnīt understand to me... I love most of mainstream science !!! But only some issues do not fit me too well, as well as for many other people.

A whole lot of people believe all sorts of things that are not true...

How issues sit? with others is irrelevant.

[ShinAce]

1) How can you expect an open debate when you post your idea and say anyone who's going to attack it should stay away? A debate is a debate. You say your side, and let them say theirs. Even in the open forum you constantly ignore rebuttals and just keep asking if it's possible. Is it possible that the tooth fairy exists? Sure. I never actually saw my parents put money under my pillow.

2) As pointed out before, if you're having a good conversation with a single person, you can always try private messaging.

3) In science, there's always a minimum level of knowledge you're expected to display. There was a thread about gravity due to cones. The person wanted to verify a result they had come up with. The consensus was that the new result was wrong, as calculus gave the classic answer. The consensus became "learn calculus if you don't like it". So...it's up to you to learn it, not teach it your own way.

4) If you do have a new idea you want to put forward, write a book. You could make some money if the book becomes popular.

I see ATM as a place where you put your idea forward so that others can attack it and find the holes. That gives you a chance to look at it again and try to fix it. If you can't respect the same level of debate you expect from others, there are plenty of other forums that fit the bill.

[dapifo]

A whole lot of people believe all sorts of things that are not true...

How issues sit? with others is irrelevant.

I donīt know if this place is the correcto to answer you (??)... were we could open a thread to talk about issues do not fit me too well:

- Universe finite in time, matter, energy,...from nothing (????)
- Dark Energy and matter... scientifics forsee...but nobody knows what are...
- Isotropic expanding?... just because we see like this....
- matter+energy of the universe is constant???... no sense !!!
- uncertainty principle...(???)...it is only a scale problem !!!
- Eleven dimensions??...7 rolled????
- electros in different place at the same moment?
. Is it a cassuality that the Universe we know is from 10^-27 to 10*+27 meters?...and we are just in the middle?...just as during the Middle Ages (till only 500 year ago!!!) believed that the Earth was the center of the universe (and that revolved around it)?
-Etc...

Mainstream Scientifics thinks they know most of the Universe things (near 90 % or more). I think that we know less than 5% !!!!...And it is too much!!!

[caveman1917]

I see ATM as a place where you put your idea forward so that others can attack it and find the holes.

Very true. Posting in ATM is basically asking others to help out with the hard work of theorizing, finding the holes. Coming up with ideas is the easy part, and without the part of trying to find the holes in those ideas, either by yourself or by asking others to help by posting in ATM, it is nothing more than daydreaming and has very little, if anything, to do with science.

[natattack]

I donīt know if this place is the correcto to answer you (??)... were we could open a thread to talk about issues do not fit me too well:

- Universe finite in time, matter, energy,...from nothing (????)
- Dark Energy and matter... scientifics forsee...but nobody knows what are...
- Isotropic expanding?... just because we see like this....
- matter+energy of the universe is constant???... no sense !!!
- uncertainty principle...(???)...it is only a scale problem !!!
- Eleven dimensions??...7 rolled????
- electros in different place at the same moment?
. Is it a cassuality that the Universe we know is from 10^-27 to 10*+27 meters?...and we are just in the middle?...just as during the Middle Ages (till only 500 year ago!!!) believed that the Earth was the center of the universe (and that revolved around it)?
-Etc...

Mainstream Scientifics thinks they know most of the Universe things (near 90 % or more). I think that we know less than 5% !!!!...And it is too much!!!

First of all, not all of those topics are entirely 'mainstream'. And it sounds like you're relating concepts that aren't really related to each other (for example: dark matter and dark energy).

Might I suggest listening to Astronomy Cast by Frasier Cain and Pamela Gay? They do an excellent job of communicating the basics of many of these concepts (at least those testable by science). My suggestion would be to start with the earlier episodes. You can find them under archive in the link above.

[PetersCreek]

I donīt know if this place is the correcto to answer you (??)... were we could open a thread to talk about issues do not fit me too well:

- Universe finite in time, matter, energy,...

No, this is not the place to discuss your objections to mainstream science. This is my final warning to you about this. If you do it again, I will issue an infraction that may result in your suspension.

[Solfe]

Might I suggest listening to Astronomy Cast by Frasier Cain and Pamela Gay? They do an excellent job of communicating the basics of many of these concepts (at least those testable by science). My suggestion would be to start with the earlier episodes. You can find them under archive in the link above.

Personally, I found the last three to be very informative - Mass, Energy and Infinities. You might enjoy 166 Multiverses and what I call the Mystery Series: episodes 174-179, plus the Question Shows.

[dapifo]

1) How can you expect an open debate when you post your idea and say anyone who's going to attack it should stay away? A debate is a debate. You say your side, and let them say theirs. Even in the open forum you constantly ignore rebuttals and just keep asking if it's possible. Is it possible that the tooth fairy exists? Sure. I never actually saw my parents put money under my pillow.

Escuse me. .. but you are "[language] off the pot"...Before you criticize you should know that talking about.
Before open ATM debate (proposed by an Moderator)...I had several debates in other threads (please see them).
And when "I refrain persons who are staunch supporters and deffenders of Mainstream science." was because after several discussion was impossible to go on due tu the only answer I received was: "It is against Mainstream" (You have to go ATM), and "give envidences"....any other reasoning !!!
Then I open a thread in ATM with the idea of having an open dicussing with open mind people without mainstream prejudices or attachments (not mainstream adepts/fans).

1) 2) As pointed out before, if you're having a good conversation with a single person, you can always try private messaging.

OK..I didnīt know it...but remember..in the thread there wasnīt any post and other person...only moderator.

1) 3) In science, there's always a minimum level of knowledge you're expected to display. There was a thread about gravity due to cones. The person wanted to verify a result they had come up with. The consensus was that the new result was wrong, as calculus gave the classic answer. The consensus became "learn calculus if you don't like it". So...it's up to you to learn it, not teach it your own way.

It is no my intention to teach any body...if he doesnīt what...but only "having an open discussion which these person that they whant to discuss with me... those that doesnīt whant can refrain"

1) 4) If you do have a new idea you want to put forward, write a book. You could make some money if the book becomes popular.

I am considering this idea now...that I seee I am the only one hwo think and believe on it...But Please, I ask anyone to steal the idea ... the forum is my witness that I was the first human being to the presentú publicly ... and how hard it is being!

My initial idea was just to know that was in the state of the art on this concept, and have an open discussion with multidisciplinary scientists they could give me your point of view. But apparently I'm more time talking about the rules of the forum, and from my boldness to propose ideas outside the mainstream that develop the idea. I never could imagine it would be so difficult to talk about novel scientific issues today. I thought this only happened in the Middle Ages (the inquisition).

1) I see ATM as a place where you put your idea forward so that others can attack it and find the holes. That gives you a chance to look at it again and try to fix it. If you can't respect the same level of debate you expect from others, there are plenty of other forums that fit the bill.

Could you give to me the links of these forums?....Which do you think could fit better with my objectives. Thanks !!!

[tusenfem]

Escuse me. .. but you are "[language] off the pot"...Before you criticize you should know that talking about.

Tone it down, dapifo, that is not the way to talk to other CQ members!
Infraction.

[Strange]

I am considering this idea now...that I seee I am the only one hwo think and believe on it...But Please, I ask anyone to steal the idea ... the forum is my witness that I was the first human being to the presentú publicly ... and how hard it is being!

I really don't think you need to worry about anyone stealing your idea.

My initial idea was just to know that was in the state of the art on this concept, and have an open discussion with multidisciplinary scientists they could give me your point of view.

And you have had many open discussions (on this and other forums) where everyone has pointed out, from many different perspectives, that the idea makes no sense, has no evidence, contradicts known science, etc. You ignore all these "multidisciplinary" inputs and just keep repeating exactly the same thing. It sounds more like you are just looking for people to agree with you.

[dapifo]

I really don't think you need to worry about anyone stealing your idea.

From where do you get the ideas for your books?

And you have had many open discussions (on this and other forums) where everyone has pointed out, from many different perspectives, that the idea makes no sense, has no evidence, contradicts known science, etc. You ignore all these "multidisciplinary" inputs and just keep repeating exactly the same thing. It sounds more like you are just looking for people to agree with you. [/QUOTE]

Everyone has pointed me a lot of things...but with one only evidence...that it is mainstream !!!

[Moose]

Everyone has pointed me a lot of things...but with one only evidence...that it is mainstream !!!

There's a reason for that. Every theory accepted by the mainstream has had its evidence scrutinized through the peer-review process. A process that is far more stringent and adversarial than anything that has ever been done on BAUT, let alone anything you've undergone. These explanations were shown to explain more data, more accurately, than anything else available. The evidence for these explanations were strong enough to persuade, over time, individually, the vast majority of the world's leading and independent experts in that topical area to discard previous less-effective explanations. Mainstream theories have earned their inclusion into the mainstream by the sweat, tears, rejection, sleepless nights, and (occasionally) blood of many upon many scientists.

The "making stuff up" phase of science is very brief and very early in the process, and in no way entitles you to jump straight to the "attempting to persuade others" phase of things.

So what, exactly, have you done to earn that consideration?

[Luckmeister]

Also, dapifo, posters have not just argued that you're wrong because your ideas "are not mainstream." There have been many detailed answers to your questions and comments, if you read them and were able to understand them.

[dapifo]

There's a reason for that. Every theory accepted by the mainstream has had its evidence scrutinized through the peer-review process. A process that is far more stringent and adversarial than anything that has ever been done on BAUT, let alone anything you've undergone. These explanations were shown to explain more data, more accurately, than anything else available. The evidence for these explanations were strong enough to persuade, over time, individually, the vast majority of the world's leading and independent experts in that topical area to discard previous less-effective explanations. Mainstream theories have earned their inclusion into the mainstream by the sweat, tears, rejection, sleepless nights, and (occasionally) blood of many upon many scientists.

I agree totaly and absolutly with this...

But do you really think that a forum is the place to make an peer-review process ?... or it is better a place to discuss, in addition to asking specific questions, openly with people and experts about state of the art and possible new ideas?

[PetersCreek]

But do you really think that a forum is the place to make an peer-review process ?

Although it bears some resemblance to a peer review process, it isn't nearly as strict as those you have to get through to publish a paper. But to answer your question, yes, we think it's appropriate for our ATM forum. Otherwise, we wouldn't have our rules and policies to make it so.

... or it is better a place to discuss, in addition to asking specific questions, openly with people and experts about state of the art and possible new ideas?

We keep trying to tell you: that can be done here but it has to be done according to our policies.

Look, you are not the first person to come to this forum who doesn't like our rules. Most of them go on to find other places they like better and we wish them well. Some, like you, want to argue about our rules. Sometimes, we do modify our rules when there is a compelling reason to do so. So far, you have not provided any compelling reason for us to do so. Do you really think that we'll change our rules just because you, dapifo, do not like them?

[R.A.F.]

...do you really think that a forum is the place to make an peer-review process ?...

Moose posted the following...

Every theory accepted by the mainstream has had its evidence scrutinized through the peer-review process. A process that is far more stringent and adversarial than anything that has ever been done on BAUT, let alone anything you've undergone.

So I am at a loss to understand what it is you are saying...you seem to have missed the point of what you are "agreeing" with.

...or it is better a place to discuss, in addition to asking specific questions, openly with people and experts about state of the art and possible new ideas.

Those "possible new ideas", are fine, as speculation, however, if it goes beyond simple speculation, and moves into advocacy of those new ideas, then you have to have the evidence to back up those new ideas.


I really do not understand what your "point" is...

[R.A.F.]

....you are not the first person to come to this forum who doesn't like our rules. Most of them go on to find other places they like better and we wish them well. Some, like you, want to argue about our rules. Sometimes, we do modify our rules when there is a compelling reason to do so. So far, you have not provided any compelling reason for us to do so. Do you really think that we'll change our rules just because you, dapifo, do not like them?

Something similiar to this should be a "sticky".

[dapifo]

Although it bears some resemblance to a peer review process, it isn't nearly as strict as those you have to get through to publish a paper. But to answer your question, yes, we think it's appropriate for our ATM forum. Otherwise, we would have our rules and policies to make it so.



We keep trying to tell you: that can be done here but it has to be done according to our policies.

Look, you are not the first person to come to this forum who doesn't like our rules. Most of them go on to find other places they like better and we wish them well. Some, like you, want to argue about our rules. Sometimes, we do modify our rules when there is a compelling reason to do so. So far, you have not provided any compelling reason for us to do so. Do you really think that we'll change our rules just because you, dapifo, do not like them?

I do not come to this forum to change anything ... I understand very well that you must continue the policy imposed by the owners.

[R.A.F.]

I understand very well that you must continue the policy imposed by the owners.

I certainly do not feel "imposed" upon.


Just sayin'.

[dapifo]

Somebody has to lead the policy of the forum and make decisions (?)...

[R.A.F.]

Somebody has to lead the policy of the forum and make decisions (?)...

As I said in unanswered post #79, I don't understand what it is you "want".

[Sticks]

Thread closed pending moderator discussion