Bird-brain intelligence?

[NEOWatcher]

The real trick humans have that put us ahead of the others isn't tool use or learning, it's teaching.

That's what I get out of some shows that describe research on chimps.
They have repeatedly shown that a chimp will teach another chimp a technique, but only when that other chimp requires it.
There is no preemptive teaching.

Active teaching, not just by show and imitate, but by talking, often by making up stories to explain connections.

Seeing a need to teach would probably come before language. They would still have the ability to show as in "come with me and I'll show you".

[Antice]

Any discussion of intelligence really need to look at extelligence as well.
Language as a means to store information about the world in excess of immediate requirements is what really drove human intelligence up.
Tool use isn't enough.

The real trick humans have that put us ahead of the others isn't tool use or learning, it's teaching.
Active teaching, not just by show and imitate, but by talking, often by making up stories to explain connections.

It's the skill of adding to the intelligence/knowledge of others. Which incidentally includes other animals.

It's because we can teach new tricks to old dogs that we're ahead.

I think this is the first thing mentioned about differences in human vs animal inteligence that i find myself fully agreeing with.

some Animals do have language, altho not as complex as ours (it seems at least. could be dead wrong tbh).
some Animals do have great problem solving ability. (sometimes exceeding that of some humans i know of.)
Some Animals teach their young. altho not in such a large degree as we do, and not in the same manner.
Some animals express great creativity, and will make expressions of "art" (some songbirds seem to be great imrovisers of song. those serenades can be everything from happy to sad sounding, altho they may at the same time be a form of complex conunication. hard to tell the diference tbh)

At some point in our evolutionary history we got an advantage from being great at passing along knowledge. at being good at planning for the future, and being good comunicators. These traits got selected for at the cost of more or less any and all other survival traits we might have had back then, except color binocular vision. we are a highly vision based species. something that is mirrored in that our most accurate comunication skill is the vision based language called writing. visual art is just another expression of visual comunication imho.

The diference between "us" and "animals" is definately only one of degree imho. I'm sorry if that is offensive to some, but that is what all this research into inteligence seem to boil down to.

[HenrikOlsen]

These traits got selected for at the cost of more or less any and all other survival traits we might have had back then, except color binocular vision. we are a highly vision based species. something that is mirrored in that our most accurate comunication skill is the vision based language called writing. visual art is just another expression of visual comunication imho.

We're also specialized for endurance running and temperature tolerance and those haven't been lost.

[Buttercup]

Always giggle when I see this thread title. Yeah, I've known plenty of bird brains. :-p

[NEOWatcher]

...those haven't been lost.

Maybe as a species, but personally it has.

[Swift]

Always giggle when I see this thread title. Yeah, I've known plenty of bird brains. :-p

Not to derail things, but I think this thread, to some extent, supports the fact this old expression ("bird brained") might be off. Along a similar line, I always found "eats like a horse" to mean eats a lot, and "eats like a bird" to mean eats very little, to be very wrong. As a percentage of their body weight, horses eat relatively little, whereas birds eat a lot. Hummingbirds eat something like half their body weight a day!

[TooMany]

Octopi can learn to use tools (opening jars and crab traps and the like), perhaps we simply haven't caught them at it much in their native environment. The Veined Octopus used coconut shells and seashells to build shelters (in the wild, that is, untrained).

Opening jars is pretty impressive if they actually unscrew them. I know they open clams by pulling until the clam gets tired.

It's interesting because they represent a completely independent development of intelligence. I mean they aren't even vertebrates. Maybe the implication of all these smart animals is that development of intelligence is inevitable in evolution. So we can conclude that where there is evolved life in the Universe there is at least the possibility of intelligence.

[TooMany]

Not to derail things, but I think this thread, to some extent, supports the fact this old expression ("bird brained") might be off. Along a similar line, I always found "eats like a horse" to mean eats a lot, and "eats like a bird" to mean eats very little, to be very wrong. As a percentage of their body weight, horses eat relatively little, whereas birds eat a lot. Hummingbirds eat something like half their body weight a day!

Humming birds are remarkable. Their brains are tiny yet they build nests and raise young just like other birds. I was watching one the other day. For some reason it stopped to just hover in empty space (no flowers or anything). There was a light breeze blowing but the bird was absolutely frozen in place relative to the background. Perhaps it had found something I couldn't see like a spider since the bird was hovering under a patio cover. Do they eat animals? I thought they only ate nectar.

Once a humming bird got lost inside our open garage. The bird got tangled up in some plastic bags. I extricated the bird but it was not able to fly. I figured it for a dying old bird. My wife who literally won't hurt a fly, put the bird in an old bird cage. At this point the bird was barely able to move. She got an eyedropper and mixed up some sugar water and fed it. Its tiny little tounge lapped at the drips. After about an hour the bird started to move again. She opened the cage took out the bird and it flew away like nothing was wrong. It had simple run out of gas! They are in serious risk if they don't have an adequate food supply.

Anyway, what's so remarkable to me is that all the usual bird intelligence is in such a tiny brain.

[IsaacKuo]

Do they eat animals? I thought they only ate nectar.

Hummingbirds eat insects also. It's an important source of protien.

[Antice]

Humming birds are remarkable. Their brains are tiny yet they build nests and raise young just like other birds. I was watching one the other day. For some reason it stopped to just hover in empty space (no flowers or anything). There was a light breeze blowing but the bird was absolutely frozen in place relative to the background. Perhaps it had found something I couldn't see like a spider since the bird was hovering under a patio cover. Do they eat animals? I thought they only ate nectar.

Once a humming bird got lost inside our open garage. The bird got tangled up in some plastic bags. I extricated the bird but it was not able to fly. I figured it for a dying old bird. My wife who literally won't hurt a fly, put the bird in an old bird cage. At this point the bird was barely able to move. She got an eyedropper and mixed up some sugar water and fed it. Its tiny little tounge lapped at the drips. After about an hour the bird started to move again. She opened the cage took out the bird and it flew away like nothing was wrong. It had simple run out of gas! They are in serious risk if they don't have an adequate food supply.

Anyway, what's so remarkable to me is that all the usual bird intelligence is in such a tiny brain.

Sugar, the JP7 of nature. Them hummingbirds use an enourmous amount of energy to sustain themselves. i somethimes wonder how they managed to evolve into that curious position in the first place???

[primummobile]

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that it would be close to a universal opinion among scientists that at least the mammals and birds all have some sort of communication ability. As you say, there has to be some sort of communication for there to be a social structure. It might be as simple as a bark or chirp that means "danger" or "mate with me".

I suspect where the disagreement comes is with whether any non-human animals have "language". And don't ask what the difference is; I have somewhat of a feel, I suspect it has to do with structure and flexibility and complexity of the communicated concepts; but that's my rough guess.

A further disagreement probably also comes from the question as to whether any non-human animals have "intelligence". I suspect this is related to the language issue, but may not exactly match up.

I think the difference is mostly in how abstract of a concept you are able to communicate. I think that any true "language" would need to have the ability to convey abstract thoughts.

[primummobile]

I suspect that tool use has an synergistic effect on the evolution of intelligence. That is a tool can be such an advantage that the ability to use tools is highly selected. For birds, the problem is that they don't have hands as such. Maybe hands are really the basis of develop of intelligence at the human level. Primates had hands because they lived in trees and picked fruit. Dexterity and color vision became important. With hands, tool use becomes practical and with tool use, survival of the best tool users.

However, then you have to explain why chimps, although able to use tools a little, did not progress further at the same time hominids were evolving. One possibility is that whatever additional ability that they might have developed was a detriment because they came into competition with superior tool users. So perhaps they found a niche in which they were safe from the evolving hominids because they did not constitute a threat to them. This reasoning explains why all hominid lines except homo sapiens are now extinct.

Now cephalopods have plenty of hands, but as far as I know they do not use tools. Perhaps there is something about the undersea environment that limits the usefulness of tools. Dolphins are smart but lack appendages beyond flippers and a tail. They may have evolved intelligence somewhat the way dogs have. They are highly social and they hunt in packs.

I think your second paragraph is spot-on as to why no other species of the homo genus still exists, but other types of primate continue to thrive.

As to your other points, I had a conversation where I said much the same about a month or so ago in one of the threads in the Life In Space forum. I agree with all those, too. I think the physical ability to use tools came before the knowledge of how to use tools.

[Noclevername]

I think the physical ability to use tools came before the knowledge of how to use tools.

The fossil record also bears that out, with more dextrous hands developing far earlier than large brains. IIRC, The age of the earliest chipped stone tools discovered goes back to before the growth of the modern speech center.

[primummobile]

The fossil record also bears that out, with more dextrous hands developing far earlier than large brains. IIRC, The age of the earliest chipped stone tools discovered goes back to before the growth of the modern speech center.

Really? It's amazing what you can learn about biology on an astronomy forum.

[Cosmologist]

Crows are so smart. In the country they can recognise when a farmer is carrying a gun. Maybe its passed on memory like that mask experiment. Don't recall where I heard about it but recognising firearms sounds like a useful survival trait. I do remember hearing a funny story on the radio though.

For some reason this golf course was having problems with Crows. They were stealing golf balls. So the management called in an expert. He watched for a few days and then explained what was going on. At first the crows had simply mistaken the balls for eggs. But then something curious had happened. A human with a big stick (golf club) had come running over screaming its head off. The crow ofcourse would just fly up into a tree out of reach and watch. Taking the ball with it. The human would then keep running over and screaming. At no point was he remotely within reach of the crow.

The crows found this extremely entertaining so they would then go and steal another golf ball just to watch the crazy apes storm over waving their sticks and screaming.

He advised ignoring the birds when they stole golf balls and management quickly spread the word. Sure enough the behaviour stopped.

Does a sense of humour count as intelligence?

[primummobile]

Crows are so smart. In the country they can recognise when a farmer is carrying a gun. Maybe its passed on memory like that mask experiment. Don't recall where I heard about it but recognising firearms sounds like a useful survival trait. I do remember hearing a funny story on the radio though.

For some reason this golf course was having problems with Crows. They were stealing golf balls. So the management called in an expert. He watched for a few days and then explained what was going on. At first the crows had simply mistaken the balls for eggs. But then something curious had happened. A human with a big stick (golf club) had come running over screaming its head off. The crow ofcourse would just fly up into a tree out of reach and watch. Taking the ball with it. The human would then keep running over and screaming. At no point was he remotely within reach of the crow.

The crows found this extremely entertaining so they would then go and steal another golf ball just to watch the crazy apes storm over waving their sticks and screaming.

He advised ignoring the birds when they stole golf balls and management quickly spread the word. Sure enough the behaviour stopped.

Does a sense of humour count as intelligence?

Do you know where this happened?

[swampyankee]

I think your second paragraph is spot-on as to why no other species of the homo genus still exists, but other types of primate continue to thrive.

As to your other points, I had a conversation where I said much the same about a month or so ago in one of the threads in the Life In Space forum. I agree with all those, too. I think the physical ability to use tools came before the knowledge of how to use tools.

There is evidence that octopus do use tools. See http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...onut-carrying/ http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci...its-of-armour/ http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...topus-tool-use

[NEOWatcher]

There is evidence that octopus do use tools.

I don't know if finding something to use as a shelter constitutes tool usage. This is somthing that hermit crabs do too.
I think the intelligence of an octopus is better demonstrated by other feats such as unscrewing a jar.

[primummobile]

There is evidence that octopus do use tools. See http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...onut-carrying/ http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci...its-of-armour/ http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...topus-tool-use

Yes, I think it's impressive. I've seen videos of them unscrewing the lids from jars.

[swampyankee]

I don't know if finding something to use as a shelter constitutes tool usage. This is somthing that hermit crabs do too.
I think the intelligence of an octopus is better demonstrated by other feats such as unscrewing a jar.

Like I said, it may evidence of tool use, but you're right in that it's not unambiguous.

[Swift]

The crows found this extremely entertaining so they would then go and steal another golf ball just to watch the crazy apes storm over waving their sticks and screaming.

He advised ignoring the birds when they stole golf balls and management quickly spread the word. Sure enough the behaviour stopped.

Does a sense of humour count as intelligence?

Personally (but unscientifically) I would count humor as a sign of intelligence.

Along those lines, there is a story about Washoe, the first chimp taught ASL (American Sign Language). Toward the end of her life she was retired and living in a primate center, housed next to the habitat of some type of small monkey who was very noisy. One of her old "teachers" came to visit and was talking with her. When asked about the monkey next door, she signed a sign meaning I have to use the bathroom and the sign for monkey. So, she was calling her neighbor a "poopy" monkey. Any animal that can curse is surely intelligent.

[filrabat]

There's a David Attenborough video on youtube about crows in Japan grabbing nuts they normally cannot eat. They grab the nut, drop it on a road near a street light, and let the cars run over the nut, thereby cracking it. After the car's tire cracks open the nut, they wait for the traffic to stop so they can fly down and grab the nut's contents safely. That's proof positive that Crows (and Corvids in general) are quite intelligent birds.

[starcanuck64]

There's been some interesting work with Grey Parrots and interspecies communication.

http://www.linguistics.pomona.edu/lc...pepperberg.pdf

If you go down to Model/Rival Training, it shows how Grey Parrots can learn to label objects in english by watching two people demonstrate the proper terms and pronounciation. For rewards they can receive the labeled object or request another.

[Swift]

There's been some interesting work with Grey Parrots and interspecies communication.

http://www.linguistics.pomona.edu/lc...pepperberg.pdf

If you go down to Model/Rival Training, it shows how Grey Parrots can learn to label objects in english by watching two people demonstrate the proper terms and pronounciation. For rewards they can receive the labeled object or request another.

Yes (ToSeeked)
But thanks for the paper.

[JCoyote]

Crows and Ravens do show significant intelligence, however they can also be rather long lived. Without more info on how bird intelligence develops, there could be some correlation to them simply living long enough to study and experiment with the world enough to develop unique solutions. Other birds might not be any worse year against year, they just die too soon.

[quotation]

A spirited discussion of this subject broke out at the boatyard last night where one and all have experienced both smart, and not so smart birds around here. On the not so bright side we have something of a refuge here for "store-bought" mallards, who having survived the shooting season, gather round and while proving very entertaining in their social lives, nevertheless fail certain Darwinian tests, namely laying eggs without benefit of a nest, and not appearing to know what an egg is other than some kind of obstruction to be cleared. Such ineptitude proves a treat to the crows, who peck a small hole in the eggs (enough to get their beaks into) rise a few feet in the air then drop the egg to reveal its protein-rich content. While wondering what made the crows so smart, inevitably the old saw arose that humans are only using 10% of their brains, whereas it would seem the crows are actually utilizing a much higher percentage per given size, which in turn raised the question as to whether size really matters, and speculation as to what wonders humans might be capable of were we able to emulate such efficiency.

[Noclevername]

While wondering what made the crows so smart, inevitably the old saw arose that humans are only using 10% of their brains, whereas it would seem the crows are actually utilizing a much higher percentage per given size, which in turn raised the question as to whether size really matters, and speculation as to what wonders humans might be capable of were we able to emulate such efficiency.

Unfortunately that "old saw" is an urban legend, long disproven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_percent_of_brain_myth
http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percent.asp

[starcanuck64]

Yes (ToSeeked)
But thanks for the paper.

I looked to see if it had been posted already but apparently not close enough.

[quotation]

Unfortunately that "old saw" is an urban legend, long disproven.

You know that and I know that, but 'round these parts, where folks still name children after Andrew Jackson, and have a hard time believing we ever landed on the moon (don't even bother to bring up evolution) the big brain idea still has some currency (we still have one ol' chap on the island who practices phrenology, or as he calls it, "free-najin"). Combine that with the fact that we really don't know how crows (for one) do seem to pack so much into so little area, and one (me) quickly learns to hold one's tongue when it becomes obvious that no persuasion can cure belief.

[Noclevername]

You know that and I know that, but 'round these parts, where folks still name children after Andrew Jackson, and have a hard time believing we ever landed on the moon (don't even bother to bring up evolution) the big brain idea still has some currency (we still have one ol' chap on the island who practices phrenology, or as he calls it, "free-najin"). Combine that with the fact that we really don't know how crows (for one) do seem to pack so much into so little area, and one (me) quickly learns to hold one's tongue when it becomes obvious that no persuasion can cure belief.

I can understand that. I've had to learn to bite my tongue about certain opinions since I moved to the Bible Belt.