It Seems The Study Of Anthropology Makes Me A Misogynistic, Backwards Thinker.

[Drunk Vegan]

My guess as a woman? She/they took offense because it seems you're placing the blame for pregnancy on the woman; as if women are more promiscuous than men.

I read BigDon's statement once and didn't see anything wrong with it; in my opinion it's a completely neutral statement of fact (whether the fact is 100% accurate may be debatable but it's hardly cause for emotional response).

Then I saw Buttercup's response and I applied my political correctness filter that I have to use in a corporate setting because I have a boss whose primary job function seems to be reading things in my emails that I didn't actually type. I read it again and came up with this:

"As a rule of thumb, in any large group of men and women without access to modern birth control, half the woman who can be pregnant, will be pregnant."

If your eyes/ears happen to be the type that are unnecessarily looking for subtext, the Can part of that statement might ruin the neutrality by suggesting that the women becoming pregnant is a choice - "women who can" - rather than simply a reality of what will happen in pre-modern and/or post-apocalyptic living.

To make the statement completely neutral it'd have to be something like:

"As a rule of thumb, in any large group of men and women without access to modern birth control, half the women will be pregnant."

Or maybe:

"As a rule of thumb, in any large group of men and women without access to modern birth control, half the women will be pregnant at any given time because there's no way to prevent it and it's the only way to maintain population levels."

- If you want to be really specific.

[starcanuck64]

At the risk of getting a leg blown off in this potential minefield, isn't Big Don a Navy vet?

From what little I know about the US Navy a fairly high percentage of women who ship out on vessels with mixed crews come home pregnant. He could be speaking from experience.

-Edit- I didn't mean that to sound like Big Don was impregnating female crew members.<grin>

[HenrikOlsen]

If your eyes/ears happen to be the type that are unnecessarily looking for subtext, the Can part of that statement might ruin the neutrality by suggesting that the women becoming pregnant is a choice - "women who can" - rather than simply a reality of what will happen in pre-modern and/or post-apocalyptic living.

It's a necessary modifier, it's half of the women capable of breeding, not half of the women in total.

And I'd be nasty and say that it's still true for societies with easy access to contraception, as that simply reduces the number of women who can get pregnant. Societies with easy access to voluntary abortion changed the ration of pregnancies carried to full term instead so that would muddy statistics a bit.

[Drunk Vegan]

It's a necessary modifier, it's half of the women capable of breeding, not half of the women in total.

I agree and that's how I read it as well. I'm just saying that I think that's the spot where certain people might misinterpret it because of the two possible meanings of "can:"

1. Is physically possible
2. Is able of causing to happen by action

[Paul Beardsley]

In reply to Drunk Vegan, I think the "who can" means nothing more and nothing less than "capable of being pregnant". Obviously if the female population consisted entirely of 90-year-olds and 4-year-olds, the figure would be significantly lower. Personally I'd prefer to be accurate, and not worry too much about people choosing to misinterpret because chances are they'll do it anyway.

[SeanF]

I agree and that's how I read it as well. I'm just saying that I think that's the spot where certain people might misinterpret it because of the two possible meanings of "can:"

1. Is physically possible
2. Is able of causing to happen by action

According to BigDon's original post, he said, "can be pregnant" and not "can get pregnant," which would seem to quite clearly indicate he was using meaning 1 and not 2.

[Ara Pacis]

SkepticJ did ask him, and got a sarcastic answer that wasn't very clear in meaning.

Irony, not sarcasm. Depending on how your parse it.

[Ara Pacis]

Okay, so your position is women should get over-equitable treatment on libidinous grounds?

Hooray for objectifying women!

My position has nothing to do with it.

[SkepticJ]

My position has nothing to do with it.

Okay . . . so you claim that there are certain truths that should remain unsaid, but you don't agree with those truths? In other words: they're real, but they're not right? Am I understanding you?

Why don't you just type what you think? How hard is it to tap out a few sentences in plain English? If you're going to tell someone they're wrong, it's helpful to know what you think the right position is.

[Solfe]

"As a rule of thumb, in any large group of men and women without access to modern birth control, half the woman who can be pregnant, will be pregnant."

The delivery might be the problem, no one likes being reduced to a statistic. The longer the odds, the worse the feeling is. My wife became pregnant with our daughter while on birth control. When people (foolishly) ask why she wasn't on birth control, she can't really formulate a reasonable response. When she is done choking them, they DO understand how the situation felt to her.

[Gillianren]

It is amazing the questions that are none of people's business that they will ask, isn't it? I was talking to friends today about the odd circumstances in which people somehow think it's okay to touch complete strangers, provided those strangers are women. All three of us had had our hair petted by people we didn't know, and of course every pregnant woman has people touching her belly all the time, whether she knows them are not. And of course, people think it's absolutely their business whether you're having kids or not and will ask you nosy questions.

[Paul Beardsley]

Irony, not sarcasm. Depending on how your parse it.

When the meaning and intention are unclear, parsing is not an option.

This isn't a fun-and-games thread, if you have something to say, just say it.

[Perikles]

and of course every pregnant woman has people touching her belly all the time, whether she knows them are not. .

Wow! Really? It's interesting how the concept of personal space varies so much. In my 'sphere' that would be grossly offensive. I've only ever done that twice, once on explicit invitation, and the other was my wife. Something is seriously amiss if this is standard practice but where the recipient doesn't like it.

[Ara Pacis]

Am I understanding you?

Not.

[Ara Pacis]

When the meaning and intention are unclear, parsing is not an option.

Then how did you arrive at "sarcasm"?

This isn't a fun-and-games thread, if you have something to say, just say it.

Neither is this ATM or CT.

[Solfe]

and of course every pregnant woman has people touching her belly all the time, whether she knows them are not. And of course, people think it's absolutely their business whether you're having kids or not and will ask you nosy questions.

My wife is a generally hostile person. A guy in a grocery store touched her belly, she touched his forehead and said "Nope, nothing in there."

[BioSci]

A guy in a grocery store touched her belly, she touched his forehead and said "Nope, nothing in there."

A quick wit! I love it!

[starcanuck64]

My wife is a generally hostile person. A guy in a grocery store touched her belly, she touched his forehead and said "Nope, nothing in there."

That doesn't sound like hostile behaviour to me that sounds assertive. It's taken me a while to figure out that being able to effectively assert your space is an essential part of good mental health.

[Paul Beardsley]

Wow! Really? It's interesting how the concept of personal space varies so much. In my 'sphere' that would be grossly offensive. I've only ever done that twice, once on explicit invitation, and the other was my wife. Something is seriously amiss if this is standard practice but where the recipient doesn't like it.

Yes, I think it's astonishing. I'm hesitant to even ask permission of family members and friends, let alone go up to a stranger and start touching her in a place that she is entitled to regard as intimate if she wants to. I'm not a lecherous old man with dirty hands and thoughts, but she doesn't know that, and in any case it's up to her whose clean hands go there. As far as I'm concerned, it's a strictly-by-invitation only.

[Gillianren]

It was one of the worst things about being pregnant. It actually makes the list of why my best friend isn't interesting in having kids--she simply couldn't deal with the public aspects of pregnancy. A dear friend of mine is due August 7, and I have not yet felt the baby kick, because I won't even ask. I figure she probably gets it from everyone else often enough to be tired of people touching her all the time. (I also know that the baby doesn't kick much when we're hanging out, because the mother has told me a lot about the baby's activity patterns.) However, there are plenty of people out there who think that it's okay to interject yourself into a woman's reproduction at every stage. You can ask questions. You can tell a woman she's selfish for having children. You can tell a woman she's selfish for not having children. You can touch her without her permission--without her even knowing who you are. It may actually be worse that most men don't even know it's going on.

[starcanuck64]

It was one of the worst things about being pregnant. It actually makes the list of why my best friend isn't interesting in having kids--she simply couldn't deal with the public aspects of pregnancy. A dear friend of mine is due August 7, and I have not yet felt the baby kick, because I won't even ask. I figure she probably gets it from everyone else often enough to be tired of people touching her all the time. (I also know that the baby doesn't kick much when we're hanging out, because the mother has told me a lot about the baby's activity patterns.) However, there are plenty of people out there who think that it's okay to interject yourself into a woman's reproduction at every stage. You can ask questions. You can tell a woman she's selfish for having children. You can tell a woman she's selfish for not having children. You can touch her without her permission--without her even knowing who you are. It may actually be worse that most men don't even know it's going on.

It's not something I've really noticed and it's certainly something that would offend me if it happened to me.

[geonuc]

It may actually be worse that most men don't even know it's going on.

I had no idea, at least not to the extent you say it's going on.

I would never touch a pregnant woman without invitation, and I would probably decline to do so even if invited. Feeling a stranger's baby kick is not on my bucket list.

[Gillianren]

To be fair, probably only 1% or less of the strangers you interact with every day have any interest in touching a strange pregnant woman. But that can still add up to a lot of people. And frankly, I'm more okay with that than I am with strangers petting my hair. At least you're only "touchable" as a pregnant woman for a few months--generally, people want to touch after about six or seven months, when the belly is really prominent. Crazy hair people can strike at any time.

[SkepticJ]

Not.

Well, if you're so pathologically lazy that you can't be bothered to expend more effort that tapping out three typographical glyphs, then I'm afraid I won't be wasting any more of my time on you.

[PetersCreek]

Well, if you're so pathologically lazy...

Okay, that's going to earn both of you a "knock it off" warning. Not again, please.

[Sardonicone]

It is amazing the questions that are none of people's business that they will ask, isn't it? I was talking to friends today about the odd circumstances in which people somehow think it's okay to touch complete strangers, provided those strangers are women. All three of us had had our hair petted by people we didn't know, and of course every pregnant woman has people touching her belly all the time, whether she knows them are not. And of course, people think it's absolutely their business whether you're having kids or not and will ask you nosy questions.

As a Man, I'm enraged that strangers won't pet my belly OR play with my hair. This is completely unfair, and I demand to be compensated.

[DonM435]

I'd say that all we've accomplished here is to demonstrate that when you say or do something that's arguably offensive, some people will be offended, and many will argue the point.

[Gillianren]

As a Man, I'm enraged that strangers won't pet my belly OR play with my hair. This is completely unfair, and I demand to be compensated.

I'll give you the sense of vulnerability that goes with it, especially the pregnant belly part.

[SkepticJ]

As a Man, I'm enraged that strangers won't pet my belly OR play with my hair. This is completely unfair, and I demand to be compensated.

Have you tried any of the AXE body care products?

[Buttercup]

As a Man, I'm enraged that strangers won't pet my belly OR play with my hair. This is completely unfair, and I demand to be compensated.

Shortly after I became a redhead, I happened to feel a man's fingers touching my hair. :-\ I knew him just well enough not to get angry, and pulled away (I'm married). And thus began my adventures as a redhead...(back on topic).