Self-charging electric cars

[whimsyfree]

As the blurb on the Qualcomm site notes: "The Future is Wireless EV Charging"

[That's still not self-charging. An alternative to solar cells on the roof, which as discussed above would not make a significant contribution, would be an RTG. A 60 kg RTG can produce more than 300W electrical power which could be used to charge the batteries at all times, including overnight and when the car is parked under cover. 300W is inadequate so a larger RTG would be required. If you drive your car 6% of the time (about average) then your "self-charger" must supply at least 6% of the vehicle's average power consumption when in use (ignoring charging losses). For the Leaf this appears to be 15kW (above) so the self-charger must supply 900W, corresponding to a 180kg RTG. Whether RTGs designed for space flight would have adequate shielding is another question. ]

[HenrikOlsen]

The Electricity that a Volt uses will be primarily produced by the burning of fossil fuels. The Clarity's hydrogen can be produced at home, for zero emissions - http://world.honda.com/news/2012/412...ion/index.html

Using Solar and grid power...

What's the difference from making the same solar station produce electricity to charge a Volt?

Incidentally I don't see any mention of the efficiency of the hydrogen production vs. electricity production.

[quotation]

[That's still not self-charging. An alternative to solar cells on the roof, which as discussed above would not make a significant contribution, would be an RTG. A 60 kg RTG can produce more than 300W electrical power which could be used to charge the batteries at all times, including overnight and when the car is parked under cover. 300W is inadequate so a larger RTG would be required. If you drive your car 6% of the time (about average) then your "self-charger" must supply at least 6% of the vehicle's average power consumption when in use (ignoring charging losses). For the Leaf this appears to be 15kW (above) so the self-charger must supply 900W, corresponding to a 180kg RTG. Whether RTGs designed for space flight would have adequate shielding is another question. ]

Yeah, I kind of doubt anyone would be real comfortable toting around Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators (RTGs), at the moment. They are awesome power generators, no question, and would satisfy the "self-charging" criteria better than the static IPT pads currently available, but unless there is a radical shift in the acceptance of nuclear energy generally, it might be a hard sell, even if you had "bullet-proof" (and crash proof) shielding/containment. Be nice, but...as a betting man, I'm still leaning toward IPT as something that is happening now (you know, buy low, sell high, ground floor, etc.) I wouldn't be surprised though if someday (some (many?) years from now) household power might be provded by RTGs.

[cjameshuff]

Fuel Cell cars will be the cars of tomorrow. Because they will be an improvement over cars of today - not a step sideways.

Except they're actually a step backwards. Fuel cell catalysts are far more expensive and in more limited supply than lithium, and anything using hydrogen is a dead end...it is low density, difficult to store and transport, prone to leaks, explosions, and material incompatibility issues, require either deeply cryogenic storage or very high pressures, and generally is a terrible choice as an energy carrier.

Hydrocarbons are the obvious choice for an energy carrier. They are easy to synthesize, have high specific and volumetric energy density, are easy and relatively safe to handle...and work in the vehicles already on the roads, with minimal or no modifications required. More, our entire chemical industry is geared to largely use hydrocarbons as input...plastics, fertlizers, pharmaceuticals, etc. And the energy can be extracted in a variety of ways...you might even eventually use fuel cells, if some breakthrough leads to inexpensive, robust catalysts.

[IsaacKuo]

Yeah, I kind of doubt anyone would be real comfortable toting around Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators (RTGs), at the moment.

What about some other crazy ideas for self-charging technologies? Obviously, there's hydro, wind, and geothermal.

Hydro might be done with an amphibious car-boat. You "park" in a river, and the car uses the river current to recharge.

Wind might be done via a kite/balloon or land sail. With a land sail, the vehicle might not exactly "park", but rather automatically drive itself around salt flats or something. As it sails around, electric motor/generators recharge the batteries.

Geothermal is more of a mad science-ish idea. Like the land sail idea, the car automatically drives itself around--but slowly. It uses some sort of roller to pick up heat from the hot road and uses this heat to power a heat engine.

Without doing any BOE calculations, my intuition is that none of these ideas would be practical. But at least they're on topic.

[Ara Pacis]

What about some other crazy ideas for self-charging technologies? Obviously, there's hydro, wind, and geothermal.

Hydro might be done with an amphibious car-boat. You "park" in a river, and the car uses the river current to recharge.

Wind might be done via a kite/balloon or land sail. With a land sail, the vehicle might not exactly "park", but rather automatically drive itself around salt flats or something. As it sails around, electric motor/generators recharge the batteries.

Geothermal is more of a mad science-ish idea. Like the land sail idea, the car automatically drives itself around--but slowly. It uses some sort of roller to pick up heat from the hot road and uses this heat to power a heat engine.

Without doing any BOE calculations, my intuition is that none of these ideas would be practical. But at least they're on topic.

Don't forget piezoelectric tiles could be put on the roof to absorb energy from raindrop impacts, hail or bird droppings. Or a lightning rod and a, what do you call that thing, a flux capacitor?

[IsaacKuo]

Don't forget piezoelectric tiles could be put on the roof to absorb energy from raindrop impacts, hail or bird droppings.

I forgot about rain. But I suppose that in a sufficiently rainy region it could be used for power. You wouldn't use piezoelectric tiles, but rather you would funnel the rain for small scale hydro. Anyway, I would expect that in these regions it would make more sense to do that river charging thing, since it essentially utilizes rain power from a large area concentrated into a small bottleneck.

Or a lightning rod

Lightning is definitely too sporadic to be a practical small scale power source.

and a, what do you call that thing, a flux capacitor?

Does not exist.

[djellison]

anything using hydrogen is a dead end...it is low density, difficult to store and transport, prone to leaks, explosions, and material incompatibility issues, require either deeply cryogenic storage or very high pressures, and generally is a terrible choice as an energy carrier.

You're wrong. The Clarity exists. It works. It covers IC-engine typical ranges, takes a couple of minutes to refill, then goes another 300 miles. If it's 'terrible' - it's only as 'terrible' as Gasoline.

And Fuel Cell prices are already coming down - massively.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffRagsjSpkE

Talking of dangerous means of storing energy- about that Volt
http://jalopnik.com/5858690/chevy-vo...-investigation

[NEOWatcher]

And Fuel Cell prices are already coming down - massively.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffRagsjSpkE

Are they coming down enough to be affordable to a large poplulation though? If you included that link to show that, I don't see it. Interesting clip though. It does sound like a great car if FC prices come down enough, and we have the infrastructure to support it.
All I can find about Clarity pricing is the lease price, and some old articles that talked about how the car's cost went from $1M down to about $500,000.
I would guess that the fuel cell has much more longevity than the car which brings that lease price down. (in other words, you're leasing the car, and only wear and tear on the fuel cell).

Talking of dangerous means of storing energy- about that Volt
http://jalopnik.com/5858690/chevy-vo...-investigation

Old article based on the initial "OMG, a Volt caught fire" before any investigation was made.
GM made a fix to help with the PR, but more importantly, It took less than 2 months to determine it is not a problem.

“Based on the available data, NHTSA does not believe that Chevy Volts or other electric vehicles pose a greater risk of fire than gasoline-powered vehicles.”

I'm with you as far as future technology. I just don't like some of the things you are miscommunicating.

BTW: do you have a response to me or Henrik about the Clarity solar recharg station being on the grid. Or, that the station barely has the capacity to refuel only 1 car in a 24 hour period?

[NEOWatcher]

The Volt burns fossil fuels after 30-40 miles, consuming them at pitiful approx 31-35 mpg.

Where did you get this number?
I have a Cruze. Same car, same engine but not hybrid. I get much better mileage than that (29 city, 40 highway - real life numbers). I find it hard to believe the hybrid version of my car gets worse mileage.

[cjameshuff]

I would guess that the fuel cell has much more longevity than the car which brings that lease price down. (in other words, you're leasing the car, and only wear and tear on the fuel cell).

They might compare well to lithium batteries if you can guarantee clean fuel, but they are very sensitive to trace contaminants "poisoning" the catalysts. The major cost may well be in materials rather than manufacturing, though, so recycling/refurbishing might recover much of the original cost.

[IsaacKuo]

What's the current market for hydrogen fuel cells, of the same essential type as what would be used in a fuel cell car? Is this market currently large enough to drive economies of scale and independently fund R&D to further drive down costs?

Lithium ion batteries have a wide mass market consumer base, thanks to laptops, cell phones, and other consumer electronics. This market has proven robust enough to independently fund R&D to further drive down costs. This market is what drove the improvements in battery technology to make hybrids practical, and is continuing to improve battery technology to where plug-in hybrids and full electrics are becoming more practical.

There are also other battery technologies which are being researched, which could be drop-in replacements for lithium ion batteries. When any of these alternatives outperform lithium ion batteries in specific energy, they will enjoy a ready market for premium consumer electronics where the extra battery cost will be less significant.

Are there any such market forces behind hydrogen fuel cells? At all?

This is the main reason I'm skeptical of hydrogen fuel cells ever being a significant rival to battery technology. Market forces provide extremely strong profit incentives for marginal improvements in battery technology. Even modest improvements at a significant premium are rewarded.

Still, I wouldn't completely discount the possibility of some sort of fuel cells (perhaps not hydrogen) being scaled down enough to become practical options for consumer electronics. Or, if not consumer electronics--perhaps power tools, or something. But surely it's going to need to be something that doesn't require platinum.

[NEOWatcher]

Still, I wouldn't completely discount the possibility of some sort of fuel cells (perhaps not hydrogen) being scaled down enough to become practical options for consumer electronics.

It's already happening. No; not hydrogen, but practical for consumer electronics. But; as hydrogen production comes online, perhaps the transition will not be a large issue.
Lilliputian systems
The device in that article sounds quite expensive to operate for the energy you get out of it, but it might be because of how the butane would be packaged and distributed.

[IsaacKuo]

It's already happening. No; not hydrogen, but practical for consumer electronics. But; as hydrogen production comes online, perhaps the transition will not be a large issue.
Lilliputian systems
The device in that article sounds quite expensive to operate for the energy you get out of it, but it might be because of how the butane would be packaged and distributed.

I was thinking of that one, but it's not really "happening" yet. There is perhaps some potential is there for a marketable product, maybe, but battery life on most consumer electronics is already too good for this thing to survive on a subscription basis. I can't imagine many people prefering to buy this product rather than one or two spare batteries. And the high temperatures required prevent it from being a drop in replacement for batteries.

If they can make the thing refillable, it might be a practical niche product for people operating far from electrical power sources. But I somehow doubt they can do anything about the temperature issue.

[Van Rijn]

Still, I wouldn't completely discount the possibility of some sort of fuel cells (perhaps not hydrogen) being scaled down enough to become practical options for consumer electronics. Or, if not consumer electronics--perhaps power tools, or something. But surely it's going to need to be something that doesn't require platinum.

They've been talking about fuel cells for laptops for a long time, but so far it hasn't happened. Here's one article on that:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoclast/s...-pops-up-again

Apple recently talked about it too:

http://techland.time.com/2011/12/23/...wered-laptops/

The potential would be a system that could run longer than today's systems, but there apparently have been issues in getting them to fit in a laptop form factor, they can get hot, and people want something that can be carried onto a plane (I don't think the TSA would be thrilled with people trying to carry bottles of methanol, compressed hydrogen or methane onto an airliner).

Another big issue is that the battery technology has been improving more quickly, and is so far a less expensive option.

[Ara Pacis]

Still, I wouldn't completely discount the possibility of some sort of fuel cells (perhaps not hydrogen) being scaled down enough to become practical options for consumer electronics. Or, if not consumer electronics--perhaps power tools, or something. But surely it's going to need to be something that doesn't require platinum.

Zinc-oxide fuel cell?

[NEOWatcher]

They've been talking about fuel cells for laptops for a long time, but so far it hasn't happened. Here's one article on that:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoclast/s...-pops-up-again
[...], but there apparently have been issues in getting them to fit in a laptop form factor, they can get hot, and people want something that can be carried onto a plane (I don't think the TSA would be thrilled with people trying to carry bottles of methanol, compressed hydrogen or methane onto an airliner).

Apparently, no one has read what the latest is. The article that I linked says they already have "successfully lobbied the FAA". And; the cartridges are small. Not this "half-liter". I think that artice
So; I concede that it is not "happening now", but the technology is there, and if computers aren't a good application, then so be it. It doesn't mean that fuel cells aren't a possible alternative for vehicles (in the future) nor does it mean that they are limited to hydrogen.

Another big issue is that the battery technology has been improving more quickly, and is so far a less expensive option.

Yes; so far. But it still introduces range limits (without a more involved swap out type of plan).

[starcanuck64]

Yes; so far. But it still introduces range limits (without a more involved swap out type of plan).

Why not develope a system that swaps out battery packs as they discharge?

Electric cars are more energy efficient and have far fewer parts to consume power and wear out compared to internal combustion vehicles. They don't need litres of coolant and lubricants. I wonder if it wouldn't be more efficient to build a system of charging stations where people could get fully charged battery packs and use the petrol for electrical generation instead. You could also limit the distribution of air pollution and it should be easier to reduce emissions at one source.

[NEOWatcher]

Why not develope a system that swaps out battery packs as they discharge?

I think we've already beat that horse to death (at least in other threads).

Electric cars are more energy efficient and have far fewer parts to consume power and wear out compared to internal combustion vehicles.

Where did I compare to IC vehicles?

I was commenting on the possible potential of fuel cells.

[IsaacKuo]

Zinc-oxide fuel cell?

It's an interesting possibility, given the relative maturity of the technology compared to some other alternatives. Still, it's not as sexy as lithium-air or aluminum-air. In particular, aluminum-air has six times the specific energy content of zinc-air; lithium-air has eight times the specific energy content.

I think aluminum-air is the sexiest of the possible battery/fuel cell possibilities. While the specific energy is a bit lower than lithium-air, we have a heck of a lot more aluminum around, and an extremely mature industrial base of refining and recycling aluminum.

Besides, it's fun to think about vending machines for aluminum-air cells, if you're old enough to remember when the old glass bottle soda vending machines were outmoded by aluminum can machines...

[starcanuck64]

I think we've already beat that horse to death (at least in other threads).

I missed that.

Where did I compare to IC vehicles?

I was commenting on the possible potential of fuel cells.

You were commenting on the limitations on range imposed by battery capacity.

It just seemed to me if swappable battery packs are practical then something like fuel cell technology probably isn't going to be necessary in most cases for personal vehicles. You wouldn't need to store and transfer any volatiles, just transmit electricity and charge depleted battery packs.

[djellison]

It just seemed to me if swappable battery packs are practical

Is there space to store several hundred battery packs at a typical gas station, and given that the electricity grid in SoCal already sits on the brink of rolling brown-outs, provide it with the 1 MW of electricity it would take to recharge them every 24 hours.

It's not practical.

[starcanuck64]

Is there space to store several hundred battery packs at a typical gas station, and given that the electricity grid in SoCal already sits on the brink of rolling brown-outs, provide it with the 1 MW of electricity it would take to recharge them every 24 hours.

It's not practical.

Your typical gas station stores it's fuel underground, there are ways to warehouse and quickly access even large components.

And as you move the energy production away from being directly created in internal combustion engines you would need to replace that with the necessary electrical generation. We already use a fairly cumbersome and sometimes disaster prone system of fueling vehicles, even if it takes significant modification, the end result of an electrical based system would probably be more efficient, safer and less polluting.

[cjameshuff]

Is there space to store several hundred battery packs at a typical gas station,

Seriously? Yes, easily.

and given that the electricity grid in SoCal already sits on the brink of rolling brown-outs, provide it with the 1 MW of electricity it would take to recharge them every 24 hours.

It's not practical.

It's more practical than distributing charging stations all over the place, requiring household lines to handle the load whenever people plug their cars in instead of predictable and controllable consumers who could have specialized utility service dedicated just for this purpose. Stations could charge at during times of low demand and reduce their consumption if the utility is having problems with supply. They also don't need to do all the charging themselves, they could ship the batteries to central locations to be recharged and checked over, and taken out of the pool for recycling when needed.

Battery swapping is in fact the only way I see to make electric vehicles really practical.

[djellison]

Battery swapping is in fact the only way I see to make electric vehicles really practical.

And as I don't see swapping as practical anyway - you can now see where I stand on battery powered vehicles.

[whimsyfree]

It's an interesting possibility

They are not a "posibility" for "being scaled down enough to become practical options for consumer electronics". They are already a reality.

[starcanuck64]

And as I don't see swapping as practical anyway - you can now see where I stand on battery powered vehicles.

If you can swap out the engine pack of an M1 tank in 15 minutes then why not battery packs for personal vehicles in less time?

It's a question of designing the right equipment and procedures to do it quickly and safely, it would probably involve some degree of automation.

[cjameshuff]

And as I don't see swapping as practical anyway - you can now see where I stand on battery powered vehicles.

They're a lot more practical than hydrogen fueled vehicles.

[djellison]

I disagree. Strongly.

Name how swapping an entire damn battery pack - a couple of hundred kg's of cells - and charging it somewhere....is 'a lot more practical' than the 3 minutes it takes to fill up a Clarity for another 300 miles of driving?

Note that the Clarity is on the road right now, being used, being filled up at a few hydrogen filling stations, and showing how the car of tomorrow will be just like the car of today.

[cjameshuff]

Name how swapping an entire damn battery pack - a couple of hundred kg's of cells - and charging it somewhere....is 'a lot more practical' than the 3 minutes it takes to fill up a Clarity for another 300 miles of driving?

Easy. By not using hydrogen.

Note that the Clarity is on the road right now, being used, being filled up at a few hydrogen filling stations, and showing how the car of tomorrow will be just like the car of today.

The Clarity's an expensive toy, and nothing more. It certainly isn't "the car of tomorrow".