Forum Merger Issues (was "Impending Forum Name Change")

[Fraser]

Yeah, I had never expected that people had heard of Cosmoquest before. I'm pretty sure that people know that I really want to spread interest and awareness of space and astronomy, and Cosmoquest is the project that will connects the public with researchers. We've done several stories on UT about Cosmoquest, but I've tried not to do too much log-rolling for the projects I'm involved in.

So, I'm not surprised that people hadn't heard about the project before. I'm sure most people haven't even heard about Astronomy Cast either.

People are absolutely right that we haven't been involved directly in the community for a few years. I've been active behind the scenes, keeping the server updated and running. Again, this is one of the reasons I didn't think it was right to take a profit from the forum. It's one thing to not be active, and it's another thing to skim a profit off the hard work of volunteers.

I think one of the additional benefits of the merger was to align all my community building efforts. It seems kind of insulting to be building a space and astronomy community at Cosmoquest when there's already a great community right here. That was what gave me the idea in the first place.

[Tog]

One more thing ... When folks imply that it was unreasonable to think you guys had heard of CosmoQuest it strikes me as kind of odd because both Phil and Fraser have talked / tweeted / blogged about CQX and have been involved in CosmoQuest from the beginning. I have heard a lot of people complaining that the two of them don't spend enough time here, but.... If you aren't engaged in learning about what the two of them are up to is it fair to be angry at them for not being able to keep with what all of you are up to? Mistakes get made - people can't keep up with each other as well as we'd like, and assumptions get made sometimes that people are keeping up better than they can actually keep up (all because I tweet I'm running to the airport doesn't mean I don't need to actually tell my husband - expecting him to read all my tweets is silly). If you can't keep up with BA and UT, can you please cut the two guys a little slack too? They try and their hearts are in the right places even if their eyes are sometimes looking at LOLcats instead of forum posts.

Here's the posts mentioning Cosmoquest up until the first mention of the merger:
Jan 26, 2012: Auto post from UT

Another edition of our weekly space hangout. This week we talked about a week of space remembrance, solar storms, Newt’s plans for a 2020 lunar base, arsenic and old news, black holes and their galaxies and the death of Phobos-Grunt. Want to catch these episodes live? Visit the Cosmoquest Hangouts page and you’ll see them [...]

More...

Jan 27, 2012: Auto post from UT

“X” marks the spot for a new place for Citizen Science on the web. It’s called CosmoQuest and the collaborators of this new website invite you to come visit and do more than just click your mouse. Besides contributing to real science for NASA space missions, there are also places to learn, converse, hang out [...]

More...

March 19, 2012: Auto post from UT

Want to contribute to lunar science? The MoonMappers citizen science project is now live at CosmoQuest.org, and you can become part of the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter’s science team by exploring high-resolution Lunar images and mapping out scientifically interesting features. MoonMappers has been in a testing phase since January, and during the beta period, early participants [...]

More...

Jun 5, 2012: in a reply about the Venus Transit.

Fraser and Phil are doing a podcast on Google+ which is also available here:
http://cosmoquest.org/Hangouts/

Cosmoquest was mentioned once in a post title 6 months ago and that was an auto update post from the Universe Today blog addressing "Citizen Science" which is another term I've never heard anywhere but the CosmoQuest projects. It doesn't surprise me in the least that few here had ever heard of it.

I've heard of CosmoQuest before this (1/4 of the mentions here was my post) and I had no idea Phil was an official part of it. I assumed he was a guest on the hangouts when he could make it. I listen to Astronomy Cast and the Weekly Space Hangouts a day or so after they upload to iTunes. I had no idea that CosmoQuest was anything other than a video watching service you used to stream the G+ stuff, like a second YouTube channel.

If only there was some sort of centralized way to communicate things to a large group of people on an internet forum. Maybe someday.

Sorry about the snark, but telling the people on the forum Fraser and Phil founded that it's our fault for not following them around to other projects that are mentioned in passing by a post-bot sort of bothers me. A quick note stickied in the announcements area saying "Hey here's a new project come check it out" takes about as long here as it does to tweet it, and 100% of the members of BAUT are members of BAUT. Not so with Twitter or the others. While we all see the thread titles in the UT subforum, Most of us don't bother to read the stories that don't spark out interest. The threads the Bot posted were easily overlooked.

[Tensor]

Due to some extenuating circumstances, I'm late to this party. Pretty much most of my concerns have been cussed, discussed, and reached some sort of resolution.

One more thing.. When folks imply that it was unreasonable to think you guys had heard of CosmoQuest it strikes me as kind of odd because both Phil and Fraser have talked / tweeted / blogged about CQX and have been involved in CosmoQuest from the beginning. I have heard a lot of people complaining that the two of them don't spend enough time here, but.... If you aren't engaged in learning about what the two of them are up to is it fair to be angry at them for not being able to keep with what all of you are up to?

Who's asking them to keep up with all of us? All we are asking is that they drop by once in a while.(I have to give Fraser dispensation here during server or software changes, he's done a pretty good job of keeping us updated there.) But just keeping us updated isn't really dropping by. There is a forum I co-founded back in 2000. It's local, it's not large, it's not all that active, but it does have a core of great people. I dropped out as an admin, almost seven years ago, mainly due to not being involved in that activity any longer. However, I make it a point of dropping by at least once a month, just to say hi. I just don't understand why the two of them can't do the same.

Mistakes get made - people can't keep up with each other as well as we'd like, and assumptions get made sometimes that people are keeping up better than they can actually keep up (all because I tweet I'm running to the airport doesn't mean I don't need to actually tell my husband - expecting him to read all my tweets is silly). If you can't keep up with BA and UT, can you please cut the two guys a little slack too? They try and their hearts are in the right places even if their eyes are sometimes looking at LOLcats instead of forum posts.

This may be the part that we have trouble with. So you're saying out of approximately 480 hours every month (I'm giving them 8 hours for sleeping), they can't find 5-10 minutes in there for ONE post, per MONTH, to say hi, bye, or get out of the way? I spend more time than that reading the BA's blog and the articles at UT each day.

Now that doesn't mean I read every blog post or every article. As a result, I've seen CosmoQuest mentioned, have seen it in tweets, but I was not aware of Cosmoquest in any deep manner. I have three of my older computers running Einstein@home exclusively, so I am invested in citizen science, it's just what CosmoQuest was doing when I first looked, didn't interest me, so I just let it slide out of my mind. I think it was the same for many of us here. We may have heard of it before, but not in any way that would set it in our minds, hence the "I haven't heard it before" statements. And I'm quite sure we were not aware of the FORA that were attached to it, before the announcement.

BAUT isn't a name or a logo. It's you the participants. Let's try and move past the logo and name changes and focus on just talking and doing and learning science.

And that is one of the things that set a lot of people off here. It seems that those that were making decisions about BAUT, forgot that BAUT was about us, the participants. Now, were being told the core of BAUT is us, the participants. But that was only after the many complaints it took to finally elicit that acknowledgement. From what you and Fraser have said since you've appeared, you've pretty much allayed many of my misgivings about the merger. But the fact that we didn't see that from the beginning is what upset many of us.

If you want to keep the merged forum dynamic as BAUT-like as possible, the best thing you can do is stay part of the community and just keep doing what you'd been doing up until you heard about the merger.

I, and I believe many others plan to. However, I still do share the concern of caveman. If the name CosmoQuest is attached to specific ideas and actions, the fora will concentrate on those ideas and actions, eventually to the exclusion of everything else.

I really do have to thank you and Fraser for coming here and clarifying many of the concerns that the membership here had.

[Tensor]

Just to correct something, R.A.F., the activity on the UT section is automatically mirroring articles posted on UT. Fraser isn't actually posting those threads, even if his name is on the tin. There actually was a similar mirroring forum for the original BA Blog, but it never passed alpha (not sure why) and was visible only to the mod team.

Reaching back into the dim mists of my memory, I think it had something to do with the comments on the blog not being as G rated as BAUT, along with some of the behavior on the blog that wasn't allowed on BAUT(in the form of attacks). Since he didn't want the crossover (as the comments showed up on the mirrored blog posts, I believe), he simply quit having the blog posts mirrored.

[Jim]

In contemporaneous terms, Phil Plait has as much interaction with this site as Isaac Asimov has with Asimov's Science Fiction. He has moved on, leaving not a rack behind. These things happen.

In Asimov's defense, he's dead.

[R.A.F.]

Just to correct something, R.A.F., the activity on the UT section is automatically mirroring articles posted on UT.

I did not know that...thanks for clueing me in...

Meaning that Fraser is even less "involved" than I supposed.

[slang]

That means I don't follow anything Phil blogs because he never even mirrors his blog posts here.

To be fair, he does, but it's not visible as a public forum. I assume the reason for that is that Phil often blogs about topics that would severely violate our no politics and religion rule, and he'd rack up infraction-points by the bucket... It just wouldn't do to have him show up as TheBadAstronomer

[R.A.F.]

In Asimov's defense, he's dead.

20 years ago...surprised Mike was unaware of that...

[R.A.F.]

To be fair, he does, but it's not visible as a public forum.

...and to be "as fair", it's kinda pointless to have his blog mirrored, if the "public" can't read it.

[Tensor]

In contemporaneous terms, Phil Plait has as much interaction with this site as Isaac Asimov has with Asimov's Science Fiction. He has moved on, leaving not a rack behind. These things happen.

In Asimov's defense, he's dead.

Maybe that's Mike's point, as far as Asimov's interaction with Asimov's Science Fiction goes.

[R.A.F.]

Maybe that's Mike's point, as far as Asimov's interaction with Asimov's Science Fiction goes.

Too subtle...

[stu]

Hey folks who are wondering what exactly CQ is ... I've had the same queries. It's more than ANYTHING that's been mentioned on this board/thread. It's a massive structure that encompasses education, outreach, science, and other things. This is the best (and only) organizational chart that I have, but it may give you some idea about the overall idea:

[Jim]

...and to be "as fair", it's kinda pointless to have his blog mirrored, if the "public" can't read it.

It's actually a test forum for Phil, so he can write, read and edit his blog.

[R.A.F.]

I did not know that either...thanks, Jim.

[ToSeek]

When folks imply that it was unreasonable to think you guys had heard of CosmoQuest it strikes me as kind of odd because both Phil and Fraser have talked / tweeted / blogged about CQX and have been involved in CosmoQuest from the beginning. I have heard a lot of people complaining that the two of them don't spend enough time here, but.... If you aren't engaged in learning about what the two of them are up to is it fair to be angry at them for not being able to keep with what all of you are up to?

I follow both Phil's blog and Universe Today via both RSS and email and don't recall a single mention of Cosmoquest on either. If there are such mentions, they are few and far between.

[R.A.F.]

I follow both Phil's blog and Universe Today via both RSS and email and don't recall a single mention of Cosmoquest on either. If there are such mentions, they are few and far between.

There was one mention on Phil's blog from the end of April...but I don't recall reading it, and only "found" it since this merger talk.


edit to add...here it is...

[pumpkinpie]

Hi all..
I may not be as active of a member as many posting here, but I have been around for over 10 years and rarely a day goes by when I don't check in.

Here's my question. At the end of the day (or browser session), how is your experience at CQX going to be different than it is here? There will be a new name/logo/url/color scheme, some new fora, new members and new mods. But we will retain all the current fora, correct? Same policies? So isn't it up to us to determine how the day-to-day interactions will be? Just because there is a new banner on top and some citizen science fora in the list doesn't mean playing fun-n-games or fighting woo will have to change.

At the risk of ticking some people off I am going to present a challenge. Put aside any feelings you have about how this was handled, and think critically about what I asked above. How will things change? Are you assuming it will be for the worse, or are you willing to give it a chance?

No need to post your answers if you don't wish to. I just want to give everyone a chance to think of it this way.

[Gillianren]

I, for one, don't read anyone's tweets. One of my personal heroes--who works in a field I know a heck of a lot more about than astronomy--is all over the Twitter thing, and I don't read his tweets, either. I find the whole idea of Twitter annoying, honestly. While I sometimes read that person's blog, because it's frequently a beautiful piece of writing, I don't always and it's the one I follow most. My participatory internet has always been largely here, ever since I first got here. Heck, I generally spend more time here than on Facebook.

[Ara Pacis]

Reaching back into the dim mists of my memory, I think it had something to do with the comments on the blog not being as G rated as BAUT, along with some of the behavior on the blog that wasn't allowed on BAUT(in the form of attacks). Since he didn't want the crossover (as the comments showed up on the mirrored blog posts, I believe), he simply quit having the blog posts mirrored.

This. One of the key rules on the BABB and then BAUT was no Politics and no Religion and keep it civil, and once he was free of that restraint he dove into P&R head-first where zealotry seemed to replace civility. I followed and joined in the blog discussions for a few weeks, but realized that I did not like the atmosphere as much as I had liked the strict, restrained atmosphere of the Fora. That, and I knew he and I differed on certain P&R issues and I didn't want to argue them too vehemently lest I start to actively dislike him (he and I had had some arguments on the BABB and still seemed to remain friends). I thought maybe he'd use both places, one as a venting place and this for more reasoned activities, but he didn't... so I didn't either. I got the feeling that we were an albatross around his neck and he wanted to turn his back on what he had created and be free of it. I can't say much about Fraser because I've never met him or talked to him much, so he seems like a distant relative, which works well enough for me because all my relatives are distant. I can't speak for anyone else, but my feelings regarding the Principals are ambivalent. I have a lot of interest in stars, but I refer to the ones in the sky and not celebrities.

EDIT: I forgot to add, I do have him on Twitter, but I rarely log in and only then to usually post stuff I would never post on here.

[R.A.F.]

...I may not be as active of a member as many posting here...

You should post more as I have always valued your opinion, and enjoyed your posts.

Are you assuming it will be for the worse, or are you willing to give it a chance?

At the beginning of this thread, the former...now that things are being explained, the latter.

[Ara Pacis]

Hi all..
I may not be as active of a member as many posting here, but I have been around for over 10 years and rarely a day goes by when I don't check in.

Here's my question. At the end of the day (or browser session), how is your experience at CQX going to be different than it is here? There will be a new name/logo/url/color scheme, some new fora, new members and new mods. But we will retain all the current fora, correct? Same policies? So isn't it up to us to determine how the day-to-day interactions will be? Just because there is a new banner on top and some citizen science fora in the list doesn't mean playing fun-n-games or fighting woo will have to change.

At the risk of ticking some people off I am going to present a challenge. Put aside any feelings you have about how this was handled, and think critically about what I asked above. How will things change? Are you assuming it will be for the worse, or are you willing to give it a chance?

No need to post your answers if you don't wish to. I just want to give everyone a chance to think of it this way.

If I read stu's image above correctly, it looks like posters in the forum who participate in Citizen Science projects will be able/allowed to have badges. I'm not sure what that means, but it might affect the way that some people are treated around the forum. It might become cliquish, it might become de facto deference or hierarchy and some might claim privilege, even if there is none.

Pamela did mention above that it would be bad for the grant money if the number of people who are working on projects were to drop, so it's not unforeseeable that project participants who step over the line might be given special dispensation. On the other hand, maybe that could be useful, with working on projects a method of community service for forum rule offenders. Some arguments in these fora can get heated and that could detrimental affects on the active CQX population, without a mitigation scheme, such as I mention above. It's one thing to offend the owners of the board and risk their wrath, it's another to have them refer to a superior being (the money grantor) and say "they wouldn't like it".

Also, in that image was a bit about promotion kits for teachers, and I'll assume at least some of that might be younger students. With grant money and actual structural relationships with educators at risk (instead of the nebulous, "kids come here!"), I'd expect stricter enforcement of decorum and a restriction on more mature subjects, even if they are discussions of science. I can't say if that will be bad, but it may be different.

[Gillianren]

Here's my question. At the end of the day (or browser session), how is your experience at CQX going to be different than it is here?

We have no way of knowing, and that's the reason so many of us got so upset about how it was handled. I'm grateful for the time being taken now to explain everything that's going on, but the whole point was that we didn't know how it was going to change. What we did know was that our input was not wanted. To a certain extent, I still feel that way, though I'm perfectly willing to keep up my membership regardless. I will stay until it becomes somewhere I don't want to be, but that doesn't mean I don't want to feel valued by the owners. (Who, no, aren't making a dime off the place, but who are still in theoretical total control. After all, they have the authority to fire mods and admins!) I agree with the sentiment that it feels as though Phil is done with us, and I regret that on a personal level. I like Phil!

[Fraser]

Here's my question. At the end of the day (or browser session), how is your experience at CQX going to be different than it is here? There will be a new name/logo/url/color scheme, some new fora, new members and new mods. But we will retain all the current fora, correct? Same policies? So isn't it up to us to determine how the day-to-day interactions will be? Just because there is a new banner on top and some citizen science fora in the list doesn't mean playing fun-n-games or fighting woo will have to change.

That was essentially my thought process.

It's our responsibility to make the place more interesting and compelling. If we fail at that, people will leave. That's the law of reality which underpins every decision I ever make.

[R.A.F.]

...it looks like posters in the forum who participate in Citizen Science projects will be able/allowed to have badges.

Badges??...we don't need no stinking badges...



Sorry...couldn't help myself...

[R.A.F.]

I find the whole idea of Twitter annoying, honestly.

I like to participate in discussions...between 2 or more people. Twitter ( and blogs) don't really allow for that.

They are primarily for talking at others, not talking to others.

[StarStryder]

If I read stu's image above correctly, it looks like posters in the forum who participate in Citizen Science projects will be able/allowed to have badges.
...
Pamela did mention above that it would be bad for the grant money if the number of people who are working on projects were to drop, so it's not unforeseeable that project participants who step over the line might be given special dispensation. On the other hand, maybe that could be useful, with working on projects a method of community service for forum rule offenders. Some arguments in these fora can get heated and that could detrimental affects on the active CQX population, without a mitigation scheme, such as I mention above. It's one thing to offend the owners of the board and risk their wrath, it's another to have them refer to a superior being (the money grantor) and say "they wouldn't like it".

Forum badge (still under development) = the thing VB does when you have posted a lot and gained positive karma points and no infraction points and your title changes. In order to encourage people for behavior above and beyond, we have the "add reputation" feature turned on. Currently we just have the generic "Junior member" "senior member" classes, but we want to sort how to add things to acknowledge the folks who give good answers to questions and such. Once we have that working (someday in the future that isn't this month), people will be able to see how they've gained (and lost) reputation over time on the badges page.

I hate trolls. Totally hate trolls. They ruin community. If someone is acting in a way that is detrimental to the forums, I don't care how much science they are generating, they are off the forums.

As was pointed out above, CQX is a lot more than a forum. To get a sense of it, read through the blog. When we're doing big things, I go on the forum, hand type in a thread, subscribe to it so it goes to my email, and try (and sometimes fail) to keep up with what I start. I reserve the right to quote blog posts at will using a mouse, but it will be me doing the "In case you didn't read, take a look at" copy and pasting.

One more thing... I accidentally made people upset when I tried to defend Phil and Fraser. I honestly had no idea how not here they were. I have made a point to kind of stay away from BAUT because (in my head) this is *their* forum, and I didn't want to distract from them. I was having a moment of misunderstanding. My false logic was - These are the UT & BA boards + UT & BA support CQX = BAUT people should know about CQX. THEREFORE if someone doesn't know about CQX, they aren't paying attention and complaining Phil & Fraser aren't paying enough attention is hypocritical. I also made the bad assumption that you were here in large part because of BA & UT. It is actually totally fair of you to be upset with Phil and Fraser for being utterly absent. I have a tendency to only read through my forums once a week (My mod keeps me up on day to day stuff I need to stick my nose in, so I'm actually on the boards much more often, but dont' look through everything ever day). I thought this was pretty poor behavior on my part, but ... It's me doing all I can. I adore Phil and Fraser.... It just never occurred to me that when you said absent, you meant worse than my only going in once a week and reading through things. At the end of the day, I was defending my friends. I'm human, and I'm sorry that I created a fire. I need you to help me learn about your community. I'm going to make mistakes. Please be patient with me for not always understanding immediately.

[mutleyeng]

If that fails pamela, just try this again
http://youtu.be/WZw5Vz_imPM?t=49m59s

A powerful force this one has

[Fraser]

The SHHH heard round the world.

[R.A.F.]

...people will be able to see how they've gained (and lost) reputation over time on the badges page.

We don't need no badges page...oh, wait...already used that joke.

If someone is acting in a way that is detrimental to the forums, I don't care how much science they are generating, they are off the forums.

That doesn't bode well for me...I'm always causing "problems"...it's part of my "charm".


...so just how many "bosses" will there be???

I accidentally made people upset when I tried to defend Phil and Fraser. I honestly had no idea how not here they were.

That's kinda the point...you just need to get to know us is all...it'll take time...

As far as being "upset"...not really. Personally, I've had years to come to terms with the owners non-participation...

edit to add...however, since you didn't know, I thought it important enough to mention...

It is actually totally fair of you to be upset with Phil and Fraser for being utterly absent.

Thank you for that....

I'm human, and I'm sorry that I created a fire. I need you to help me learn about your community. I'm going to make mistakes. Please be patient with me for not always understanding immediately.

Understandable, and not a problem.

[Tobin Dax]

Forum badge (still under development) = the thing VB does when you have posted a lot and gained positive karma points and no infraction points and your title changes. In order to encourage people for behavior above and beyond, we have the "add reputation" feature turned on. Currently we just have the generic "Junior member" "senior member" classes, but we want to sort how to add things to acknowledge the folks who give good answers to questions and such. Once we have that working (someday in the future that isn't this month), people will be able to see how they've gained (and lost) reputation over time on the badges page.

This will likely be a point of contention. Karma/reputation points are something that has been discussed a few times before and something that the community (or at least the mods and admins) have decided against. I can see how it would be useful for what you are doing with CosmoQuest, but it's something the BAUT community has decided against. This is one of the shake-ups we will have to deal with after the merger.

One more thing... I accidentally made people upset when I tried to defend Phil and Fraser. I honestly had no idea how not here they were. I have made a point to kind of stay away from BAUT because (in my head) this is *their* forum, and I didn't want to distract from them. I was having a moment of misunderstanding. My false logic was - These are the UT & BA boards + UT & BA support CQX = BAUT people should know about CQX. THEREFORE if someone doesn't know about CQX, they aren't paying attention and complaining Phil & Fraser aren't paying enough attention is hypocritical. I also made the bad assumption that you were here in large part because of BA & UT. It is actually totally fair of you to be upset with Phil and Fraser for being utterly absent. I have a tendency to only read through my forums once a week (My mod keeps me up on day to day stuff I need to stick my nose in, so I'm actually on the boards much more often, but dont' look through everything ever day). I thought this was pretty poor behavior on my part, but ... It's me doing all I can. I adore Phil and Fraser.... It just never occurred to me that when you said absent, you meant worse than my only going in once a week and reading through things. At the end of the day, I was defending my friends. I'm human, and I'm sorry that I created a fire. I need you to help me learn about your community. I'm going to make mistakes. Please be patient with me for not always understanding immediately.

(Emphasis mine.) I don't think that you're assumption that most of us are here because of BA & UT was a bad assumption at all. It is true for most posters posting in this thread. Most of us have join dates in 2005 or earlier, before the merger that created BAUT. A number of posters who joined after the merger also arrived here through those sites. Unfortunately, BA, UT, and the BAUT forum all started to diverge after the merger, as has been mentioned. We were here because of Fraser and Phil, and we don't like their absence from the community. Personally, I've never paid that much attention to UT, but when I get busy I will spend my free time here instead of at Phil's blog.