XKCD vs the Moon Hoax crowd.

[Tog]

Link

It's an idea for demonstrating the landings were real that I hadn't heard before. It's also kind of mean.

[slang]

It's also kind of mean.

Very Don't miss the mouse-over text!

[Garrison]

That's just cold, true, but cold.

[ravens_cry]

Most renaissance era conspiracy theorists I have encountered, children of the Internet, think that they are 'too smart to fool' and *that's* why NASA hasn't tried faking it since.

[amazeofdeath]

I'll play the HB here:

The argument doesn't demonstrate anything. NASA was capable of the Moon Hoax back then, as they did possess advanced tech compared to the rivals and public. They couldn't or dared not attempt to do it again, as the capabilities of the rival nations and even general public has caught their level. Indeed, with our current tech level, we can find the faults in NASA's original "Moon landing" material: <insert several YouTube links here>

[NGCHunter]

Or there's the other HB argument, NASA did fake their second accomplishment, the space shuttle and ISS are a hoax as well. That seems to be a growing trend on the HB hive that is youtube. I occasionally get comments to that effect on my ISS tracking videos. I suspect that as time goes on where the shuttle hasn't flown, such HB's will start to become more confident in making such claims. Much like Apollo, they'll probably used the tired canard of "why then but not now, why did we suddenly regress to using capsules, etc." Points made about the mass penalty of wings for missions beyond LEO and the superior heat shield protection of an ablative shield will no doubt fall on deaf ears. I do hope that the excellent and extensive documentation of the shuttle era by amateurs manages to keep it from going as "mainstream" as Apollo HB, but I'm not holding my breath. We have that for Apollo as well, but the general public doesn't realize it.

[Gillianren]

But Apollo HB isn't anywhere near mainstream. The first real, live HB I ever talked to was maybe five years ago. (It's actually kind of a funny story--I was at an emergency vet's office with a friend and her ferret. Some other guy was there complaining that NASA had a budget at all, which could better be used for providing medical care for pets. [To be fair, I think his was a retired police dog.] And then he started going on about how they'd faked the Moon landing, blah blah blah. Turns out the father of the guy he was complaining to at the vet's office invented some part or another for Apollo!) I think we have a skewed perception of it because of our field of interest, but when I mention hoax belief to people when I explain my interests, most of them are shocked that anyone believes it.

[NGCHunter]

Forgive me, I should have qualified that further. When I say "mainstream" I mean mainstream as conspiracy theories go. Right now based on my subjective experience I would personally rank shuttle hoax belief somewhere around the level of geocentrism in terms of how "mainstream" it is within general conspiracy circles. Among those same circles, I would say apollo hoax belief is very high, a bit behind "UFO coverup" and "JFK" conspiracies. Again, just my subjective experience. I've known a few people who believe Apollo was a hoax, but only one who thought ISS was too. I've also known Elenin conspiracy believers (or at least, they were legitimately worried about it) as well as physical pole shift/flip believers, but those are much more rare to encounter, much like ISS hoax believers. Maybe it's all the public outreach I do as an amateur astronomer, but for whatever reason I seem to attract "space conspiracy" believers, even in real life. I hope though that belief in a shuttle or ISS hoax remains fringe even among conspiracy believers and that I don't end up arguing with them as frequently as I do Apollo HBs.

[Gillianren]

I think JFK conspiracy belief is truly mainstream. UFOs, probably, too, and possibly Mayan cosmology. At least "mainstream" as fringe beliefs go. But I think that Apollo hoax belief is a small subset of people already inclined to believe in some conspiracies, and I think your sample is skewed. I read a book recently about conspiracy theorists, and Apollo isn't even mentioned.

[Glom]

NASA just got served! Remember that race from the NextGen episode where Barclay became a supergenius? We're them.

Or there's the other HB argument, NASA did fake their second accomplishment, the space shuttle and ISS are a hoax as well. That seems to be a growing trend on the HB hive that is youtube. I occasionally get comments to that effect on my ISS tracking videos. I suspect that as time goes on where the shuttle hasn't flown, such HB's will start to become more confident in making such claims. Much like Apollo, they'll probably used the tired canard of "why then but not now, why did we suddenly regress to using capsules, etc." Points made about the mass penalty of wings for missions beyond LEO and the superior heat shield protection of an ablative shield will no doubt fall on deaf ears. I do hope that the excellent and extensive documentation of the shuttle era by amateurs manages to keep it from going as "mainstream" as Apollo HB, but I'm not holding my breath. We have that for Apollo as well, but the general public doesn't realize it.

The Space Shuttle was basically Concorde. A cool idea, but ultimately an economic calamity. I wonder if anyone claims Concorde was fake?

I guess the reason that the HB's are getting more illucid in this way is that the Conspiracy Theory of the Apollohoax has been so comprehensively debunked that only the most illucid still cling to it.

[KaiYeves]

My response upon reading that comic this morning was:

"Would you like to come over here and say that to my FACE, dark-haired lady?"

[NGCHunter]

But I think that Apollo hoax belief is a small subset of people already inclined to believe in some conspiracies, and I think your sample is skewed.

I think it would be interesting to see a comprehensive controlled study of which beliefs are most "mainstream," but you could very well be right about my sample being skewed. Certainly my personal experience is biased "in favor" of running into space-related conspiracy believers, and in that respect apollo hoax belief ranks pretty high, perhaps second only to "NASA's UFO cover-up." That's why I want to re-emphasize that it's just my subjective experience. Nevertheless, dealing with Apollo HBs in real life can be annoying as it is, but it's worse when it's compounded by modern space program HB. Others I run into I just feel bad for, like the family who came to me because they were freaking out about comet Elenin. For whatever reason, and again this is just my subjective experience, Apollo HBs and the like that I've run into are dead set in their ways and when you try to answer their questions they simply become dismissive and annoyed. But that's just me, and you're almost certainly right that my personal experience is skewed in that direction, but even if it's not reflective of conspiracy belief in general it's still something I find myself encountering.

[Gillianren]

I think there's something in the overall conspiracy mindset that rejects explanation. There's something which produces the result, "Well, fine, you explained that--but what about this?" Over and over and over again. Somehow, they never do seem to recognize the pattern that one side always has an explanation that holds together and the other only has speculation.

[R.A.F.]

I think there's something in the overall conspiracy mindset that rejects explanation.

For a conspiracy idea to "survive", its proponents must ignore any evidence that would refute it. (hey, I kinda like that. )


I believe that you are giving them too much "credit". I don't think they are looking for a rational explanation. They are looking for someone to tell them how smart they are to have "figured out" the Moon hoax...

[Gillianren]

I've seen both.

[R.A.F.]

As have I...

[publiusr]

Personally, I'm waiting for the day when folks say the space shuttle never made it to orbit because it was too big. How many years will it take? 40 years? 50? 10?

[Swift]

Personally, I'm waiting for the day when folks say the space shuttle never made it to orbit because it was too big. How many years will it take? 40 years? 50? 10?

Minus 5. We've had HBers on BAUT claim all space flight was fake. About 15 seconds of googling will find videos and postings claiming the shuttles were faked.

[moog]

Personally, I'm waiting for the day when folks say the space shuttle never made it to orbit because it was too big. How many years will it take? 40 years? 50? 10?

I've had people claim the ISS is fake, and that takes some doing considering you can actually see it from the ground.

[NGCHunter]

Personally, I'm waiting for the day when folks say the space shuttle never made it to orbit because it was too big. How many years will it take? 40 years? 50? 10?

I first encountered that belief about 7 or 8 years ago, surprisingly with someone I knew. She essentially dismissed the fact that I could track it and see it in my telescope as if I was crazy. There's an entire forum out there of conspiracy theorists dedicated to the belief that the entire space program is a hoax, though honestly I can't tell if they're just a parody or serious, they're that over-the-top. Poe's Law and all that.

[TJMac]

It's funny, (peculiar, not haha) how you have to figure out what peoples thoughts are when the subject comes up. We have a guy at work, who just likes to "fish" for reaction. Not about the moon hoax, just in general. I have run into a several people who fall into that category regarding the moon hoax, however. I have also talked to a few people who just heard it mentioned, and their thinking is more along the lines of, "Did you hear about... what do you think?"

The only guy I ever talked to who seemed passionate about the subject, was trying to sell books about it, so I don't know if his actual beliefs were in line with what he said at the time. He had a plethora of books in different subjects spread out over several tables, and the moon landing hoax book was the one that caught my eye.

I suspect, that for a lot of people, conspiracies are just an amusing/interesting thing to talk about. Maybe it gives you a small feeling of empowerment to think that you have information that your neighbor doesn't. Or that it shows you are just a little too clever to fall for the propaganda that the gov't is spreading.

On the flip side of that, there is a fellow who comes into our shop now and then, needing machine work done on a secret project he has, that will enable him to power his whole house for nothing. He is a survivalist prepper to a high degree, and very much buys every conspiracy that comes along. (I believe the latest thing he mentioned was the "camps" being set up by the govt, per instructions from the Illuminati/Bildaburgers. sp? ) I try to not engage him much, so I dont know his opinion on the Apollo hoax.

Personally, I want to buy into the Kennedy Assassination Conspiracy, just because that was very very good shooting, and a fair number of very very good shooters since then have been unable to reproduce those same results under similar conditions. I don't make a career out of it though, and actually don't think about it unless I see it mentioned somewhere else. (No, I have no speculation as to who it really was. Maybe I just don't want to believe that one odd little whack-job of a man accomplished that feat.)

Anyhow, I'm rambling now... apologies.

TJ

[Gillianren]

I advise taking a look at the Apollo Hoax thread on the subject . . . and the Unsolved History where they duplicate the shot.

[nomuse]

Well, I hang out at another forum, and there is a regular spate of posts about how the Moon is gone (as in, mysteriously destroyed.) About every, oh, 28 days. I really do not know how many of them are role-players or Poe, how many are just posting to get a conversation going or to get a rise from people, or how many are actually serious. But there are a LOT of those threads.

The related threads are the "the Moon is at the wrong angle!" threads. And those people inevitably get angry and defensive when someone tries to tell them about field rotation.

[Tobin Dax]

Well, I hang out at another forum, and there is a regular spate of posts about how the Moon is gone (as in, mysteriously destroyed.) About every, oh, 28 days. I really do not know how many of them are role-players or Poe, how many are just posting to get a conversation going or to get a rise from people, or how many are actually serious. But there are a LOT of those threads.

Hopefully it's more like 29 or 30 days. Based on my experience, I'd expect that to start just after third quarter and last for 7-10 days. Quite a number of people seem to never look up at the sky.

[Vonstadt]

Link

It's an idea for demonstrating the landings were real that I hadn't heard before. It's also kind of mean.

I know I am a bit late to this thread but I had to post, this was quite funny and not what I had expected to be linked to.

I was having a really awful day and yet, this made me smile!

Thanks for the much needed chuckle Tog!

[Jens]

Very Don't miss the mouse-over text!

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I couldn't find it. What do you mouse-over?

[Tobin Dax]

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I couldn't find it. What do you mouse-over?

Go back to the comic and mouse over the image itself. It may take a second for the alt-text to come up.

[Van Rijn]

Well, I hang out at another forum, and there is a regular spate of posts about how the Moon is gone (as in, mysteriously destroyed.) About every, oh, 28 days. I really do not know how many of them are role-players or Poe, how many are just posting to get a conversation going or to get a rise from people, or how many are actually serious. But there are a LOT of those threads.

That's pretty funny, but I guess it isn't any more ridiculous than the people (we've had at least a couple here) that have decided the sun is shining on the wrong part of their house and the planet has gone off its axis or something, but only they have noticed.

[Jason Thompson]

Personally, I want to buy into the Kennedy Assassination Conspiracy, just because that was very very good shooting, and a fair number of very very good shooters since then have been unable to reproduce those same results under similar conditions.

Off-topic I know, but as gillianren said, check out the thread on it on Apollohoax. The shots, and the resultant wounds, have been duplicated. Also, I would have said a very very good shooter would have got the fatal shot on the first go, rather than a miss followed by a non-fatal wound followed by a lethal hit.

I can certainly understand the 'not wanting to believe' element when applied to the real story though. It is a human trait that everyone applies at some point, whether it's not wanting to believe that they did something so daft as to forget to refill the car before trying a 300-mile trip and getting stranded in the middle of nowhere, or that one of their relative could be a criminal, or that the leader of the most powerful nation on Earth could be gunned down in the street by a lone nutter with a rifle.

[slang]

Go back to the comic and mouse over the image itself. It may take a second for the alt-text to come up.

And remember XKCD do this for every comic.. well, every comic I've seen. It's like having two punchlines to a joke.

ETA: that wasn't adressed to Tobin Dax but to new visitors of XKCD