Order of Kilopi
With two of their space telescopes already in orbit. Some wild-eyed rumor monger is trying to tell me these things have 100 times the capability of the HST.
Does anybody have the real story on this? Are these Keyholes?
And what would the capabilities of a Keyhole pointed outward be?
Established Member
http://www.universetoday.com/95623/s...ce-telescopes/
Not sure where the rumor monger is getting the '100X the capability of the Hubble' info, but here's relevant info from the link above:
"NASA will be getting two unused space surveillance satellites from the US’s National Reconnaissance Office, which could possibly be used to search for dark energy. In articles in the Washington Post and the New York Times, NASA and NRO officials revealed the two unused and not-fully-built satellites are available for NASA to use as they see fit. While the satellites don’t have astronomical instruments and are still in a warehouse, they do have 2.4-meter (7.9 feet) mirrors, just like Hubble, with a wider field of view and a maneuverable secondary mirror that makes it possible to obtain better-focused images."
I suppose there is enough info for other rumor mongers to have a conspiracy theorist field day...Still, it looks like there's work to be done on these scopes before they're ready for deployment. And they still have to be launched...
Administrator
In the housing market, I think they would be classified as "fixer-upers".
Order of Kilopi
A little paint and some dehlias in the front garden and it will look peachy.Originally Posted by Swift
In the housing market, I think they would be classified as "fixer-upers".
You got to admit, they got a great view.
Order of Kilopi
Thank you Redshifter.
I was too embarrassed to ask my brother, who works at NASA/Ames, because of the wildness of the claims.
The guy had almost nothing right except the words NASA, military and telescopes!
Thanks again.
Established Member
I already heard from the I-listen-to-every-conspiracy-theory guy at work, these are the satellites that they (yes, that is the mysterious all-knowing 'they') use to count the change in your hand from outer space. I am not sure why its important how much change you have in your hand, but apparently inquiring minds want to know.
Since I've nearly given up rebutting his arguments, I doubt my half-hearted try about camera abilities was sufficient to change his mind.
These satellites may have infra red, ultra violet, x-ray, and smoke on the water capabilities.....
I can make up some more stuff if you give me a few minutes.
TJ
Established Member
Wait, how is it a conpiracy theory that the Pentagon has super high power surveillance sattelites? That's not exactly a secret......
Order of Kilopi
Wouldn't these be myopic compared to the HST?
Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.
Order of Kilopi
just imagine how good the scopes they have up there are if they are giving these away..
Order of Kilopi
Who needs expensive satellites in space on predictable orbits when you can have eyes on small, inexpensive UAVs?
Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.
Established Member
Inexpensive being a relative term here, them UAV's aren't really cheap, but compared to a satellite they are i guess.
from a military perspective tho it's the responsiveness and loiter capability of the surveillance system that counts. and UAV's are hands down much better than satellites at both of those things.
These satellite chassis with their mirrors are a great gift to NASA tho. They are probably currently set in a fairly near sighted configuration by astronomical standards, but that and other issues will be fixed as part of the re-purposing job that is needed in order to make them suitable for astronomic observations. They will need a whole suite of new instruments as well as other more subtle changes, but those mirrors are good. probably even slightly better than those on the Hubble.
Established Member
Powers like China and Russia might object to fleets of American UAVs buzzing around their strategically sensitive military installations.
Order of Kilopi
Fraser/UT has the scoop. It was in the news early last week too.
If I didn't remember Swift responed to the post, I wouldn't have found it.
From the Washington post.While the satellites don’t have astronomical instruments and are still in a warehouse, they do have 2.4-meter (7.9 feet) mirrors, just like Hubble, with a wider field of view and a maneuverable secondary mirror that makes it possible to obtain better-focused images.
And:“The hardware is approximately the same size as the Hubble but uses newer, much lighter mirror and structure technology,”
The spy telescopes have a feature that civilian space telescopes lack: a maneuverable secondary mirror that makes it possible to obtain more-focused imagesIt sounds like that's where they are going. Satellites for the broader picture and UAV's for the details.
Although; I don't understand the analogy they use:The analyst said that in recent years, the NRO has decided to switch to surveillance satellites that have a broader field of view than the older models.
Instead of essentially looking down through a straw at the Earth’s surface, the new technology looks down through a garden hose, the analyst said.
Order of Kilopi
Which is just silly seeing as how every automatic door scanner that opens the doors at retail stores can read the amount of decay in the coins (each of which is treated with a special alloy) and know exactly that. That's why the doors don't open sometimes. The system experiences lag.
As for the basis of the 100x claim, it's that the focal ratio is shorter on these scopes. That widens the field of view to about 100 times that of HUbble. The description I heard on the Weekly Space Hangout (Google+) was that Hubble sees the universe through a soda straw, these will see it through a garden hose. Resolution is said to be about the same.
I'm Not Evil.
An evil person would do the things that pop into my head.
Order of Kilopi
Do I hear an echo?
Moderator
Aha! So the real story comes out! They accidentally shipped one of these instead of the HST, back when.
Order of Kilopi
Since the mirrors in these "gift" (*) telescopes were likely made by the same guys who made the Hubble mirror, I wonder if they have the same error and that's why they were never launched? Of course, we know how to compensate for that now.
* Not a gift to the taxpayers!
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.
Order of Kilopi
These 'gifts' are anything but if you as me.
Now NASA has to be seen to do something with them.
And it sure as heck can't afford to. Astrophysics has poisioned its well with JWST and there is not a single penny left to build the dark energy mission that these scopes could be used for. Other NASA divisions are going to get abused, yet again, to pay for Astrophysics.
The media and public will be screaming 'Well...why hasn't NASA used those telescopes it was given? Wouldn't that save it money?'
No. It's going to cost NASA to use them. What NRO's done is gift NASA a burden of several hundred million dollars.
Order of Kilopi
Depends on which ones you're using, of course.
makes me wonder if they are or will use high altitude unmanned airships as platforms. They can stay up even longer and I'm not sure but I think the balloon envelope might be radar absorbent.from a military perspective tho it's the responsiveness and loiter capability of the surveillance system that counts. and UAV's are hands down much better than satellites at both of those things.
Sure, if they manage to detect and/or intercept them.
Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.
Order of Kilopi
heheAha! So the real story comes out! They accidentally shipped one of these instead of the HST, back when.
Is the reduced resolution due to a difference in the focal point, smaller area for a sensor to use, or is it due to space-usable sensor technology not having advanced enough since HST was first built?
Sell time on them to amateur groups and schools?
Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.
Order of Kilopi
From what I've seen so far it's the focal length that's changed. If the Hubble is like a 400 mm (16 inch) f/8 Newtonian, these new scopes are like a 400 mm f/4 Newtonian. It's the shape of the primary mirror that reduces the focal length and widens the field of view. The diameter is the same, so the resolution will be the same. The newer scopes will have a lower magnification for the same sensors, but sensors may have improved to make that a non-issue.
I'm Not Evil.
An evil person would do the things that pop into my head.
Order of Kilopi
Are you being funny?
The running costs of Hubble - ignoring development costs - run to something over $20,000 per hour.
Order of Kilopi
Are you being capitalistic? Not everything that serves a common good must be run to make a profit.
Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.
Administrator
But the reality is that NASA has no spare money in its budget and it will cost lots of millions of dollars just to turn these into real telescopes and put them into orbit, not even mentioning the budget to operate them once they get there.
I was half kidding about fixer-uper, but really, I'm pretty unconvinced that it is much of a gift and that either will ever fly. Its like someone giving you a gift of a car, until you find out it has no engine and no wheels.
Established Member
Are there enough spare parts from Hubble to make a build affordable? James Webb is still 6 years away, couldn't we syphon some of its budget into 'Hubble 2'? What's the worst that could happen, James Webb becomes pushed back and goes over budget?
Order of Kilopi
Well, James Webb might be cancelled, with these as a consolation prize. (Frankly, I'm not sure I'd be completely against that - I want to see what James Webb will do, but the money being spent on it is ridiculous.)
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?
The Leif Ericson Cruiser
Order of Kilopi
You were suggesting that NASA could sell time to amateurs on the scopes to make up the budget. Who's going to pay $20k/hr to make up the budget?
Anything LESS than that, and the cost of the scope actually increases.
Order of Kilopi
Your inference =/= my implication.
Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.
Order of Kilopi
Then for my benefit (and a few other people I think) can you explain how selling telescope time to schools, at less than it costs to run, makes it more affordable?
Order of Kilopi
For my benefit (and a few others I think) can you explain where I said it would make it more affordable?
Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.
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