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Thread: Ancient Aliens TV Show - Werner Von Braum, elongated skulls, a few questions.

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    Ancient Aliens TV Show - Werner Von Braum, elongated skulls, a few questions.

    First, I like the ancient aliens tv show.

    It challenges me to think outside the box a bit, even if I don't subscibe to the ancient alien theory presented.

    I accept it as just that, a presentation of ancient alien theory.

    But, I have a couple of questions about 2 of the things suggested on different episodes.

    1. Werner Von Braum: It was suggested that the reason the Germans made advancements in technology was because a group within the SS had made alien contact.

    It was further suggested that after the war when Von Braum was working in the US, he was asked how the Germans made their technology advances, and he apparently replied that they were getting help from aliens.

    That sounds like an outlandish statement that should be easily debunked.

    2. Elongated Skulls: Found at various pyramids and ancient sites, it is suggested that these elongated skulls are not human, but are either alien or a hybrid of human and alien.

    Would it be possible to take a tooth from one of those skulls, analyse the DNA, and determine if there are 46 chromosones?

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    Quote Originally Posted by r4758 View Post
    ... It was further suggested that after the war when Von Braum was working in the US, he was asked how the Germans made their technology advances, and he apparently replied that they were getting help from aliens.

    That sounds like an outlandish statement that should be easily debunked. ...
    How could you prove he never said that? It's more the reverse - up to someone to prove that he did say that.

    (Let alone, even if it were proved he said it - then to prove it was accurate.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by r4758 View Post
    2. Elongated Skulls: Found at various pyramids and ancient sites, it is suggested that these elongated skulls are not human, but are either alien or a hybrid of human and alien.

    Would it be possible to take a tooth from one of those skulls, analyse the DNA, and determine if there are 46 chromosones?
    Those skulls are human, has already been shown by DNA analysis years ago.
    They where shaped during infancy to distinguish high-class people from low-class people in the same way other types of body modification has been used to make hard to fake distinctions between "us" and "them" in pretty much every culture throughout history.
    See e.g. this sculpture of Tutankhamen which clearly illustrates one type of cranial deformation practiced amongst highborn Egyptioans of the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by r4758 View Post
    First, I like the ancient aliens tv show.

    It challenges me to think outside the box a bit, even if I don't subscibe to the ancient alien theory presented.

    I accept it as just that, a presentation of ancient alien theory.
    It is really a stretch to call it a "theory", as there's no single unified narrative behind the idea, and the evidence consists mainly of arguments from ignorance ("We don't know why/how/etc, therefore aliens"). "Hypothesis" would be more exact. "Speculation" would be even better.

    Quote Originally Posted by r4758 View Post
    But, I have a couple of questions about 2 of the things suggested on different episodes.

    1. Werner Von Braum: It was suggested that the reason the Germans made advancements in technology was because a group within the SS had made alien contact.

    It was further suggested that after the war when Von Braum was working in the US, he was asked how the Germans made their technology advances, and he apparently replied that they were getting help from aliens.

    That sounds like an outlandish statement that should be easily debunked.
    As it was pointed out, the "burden of proof" is on the one making the claim. What source for the quote was presented by the show?

    Note that von Braun was working on rockets before the war and there were similar efforts in the USA and the USSR. The war just gave him an opportunity to get funding and other capabilities that he wouldn't have otherwise. No aliens were necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by r4758 View Post
    2. Elongated Skulls: Found at various pyramids and ancient sites, it is suggested that these elongated skulls are not human, but are either alien or a hybrid of human and alien.

    Would it be possible to take a tooth from one of those skulls, analyse the DNA, and determine if there are 46 chromosones?
    Wikipedia has a nice article on cranial deformation:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artific...al_deformation
    (Note that I'm not linking to it as an authoritative source, but just as a summary accessible to the layman and a starting point to more research.)

    As far as I can remember, even Däniken didn't claim that the deformed skulls were alien, just that the ruling class tried to mimic the alien overlords. So yeah, if your retelling is correct, Ancient Aliens have managed to out-Däniken Däniken.
    (English is not my first language, so please excuse any mistakes and unintended ambiguities.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by r4758 View Post
    I accept it as just that, a presentation of ancient alien theory.
    The idea of "ancient aliens" does not meet the requirements of being called a theory.


    It was further suggested that after the war when Von Braum was working in the US, he was asked how the Germans made their technology advances, and he apparently replied that they were getting help from aliens.

    That sounds like an outlandish statement that should be easily debunked.
    "Suggested"?...apparently??....sorry, but you've given us no evidence that there is anything to debunk.


    Elongated Skulls...it is suggested...
    What is it you would like us to do? Again, "suggested" is not sufficient. Evidence is required for such ideas before they can be generally accepted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
    It was further suggested that after the war when Von Braum was working in the US, he was asked how the Germans made their technology advances, and he apparently replied that they were getting help from aliens.

    That sounds like an outlandish statement that should be easily debunked.
    "Suggested"?...apparently??....sorry, but you've given us no evidence that there is anything to debunk.
    Even if we have evidence that he said it, we would still need evidence that he was being serious. Plus, we would need evidence that "alien" meant "ET", and not just science from another country.

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    I think a program like "ancient aliens" should be presented by the SyFy Channel, not one of the History Channels. (I believe its being shown on H2 Channel)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daggerstab View Post
    It is really a stretch to call it a "theory
    Hypothesis

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    Yeah, I have never seen anything on any of those shows which meets a reasonable burden of proof. It's unwarranted speculation, and it gets people to accept it as fact. That's the problem with those shows. "Thinking outside the box" is, so far as I am concerned, a meaningless buzz phrase which often translates to "thinking thoughts which don't connect in any way to reality."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    "Thinking outside the box" is, so far as I am concerned, a meaningless buzz phrase which often translates to "thinking thoughts which don't connect in any way to reality."
    I agree. To think outside the box implies you know something about the box in the first place.

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    Their box is more like a collander.

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    Quote Originally Posted by r4758 View Post
    It challenges me to think outside the box a bit, even if I don't subscibe to the ancient alien theory presented.
    I don't consider it thinking outside the box at all. Invoking aliens as explanation is a cop-out.

    Even if aliens were involved (which, incidentally, is supported by no evidence at all), it seems extremely unlikely that their technology could be incorporated into human technology. (Imagine supplying the latest Android apps to Richard the Lionheart.) On the other hand, technological advances taking place during a war - who'da thunk it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by r4758 View Post
    First, I like the ancient aliens tv show.
    So do I, but I regard it as a comedy.

    It challenges me to think outside the box a bit, even if I don't subscibe to the ancient alien theory presented.
    Not really. Those programs just send you to another box, the one that nets them the most money. Postulating an "ancient alien" explanation for some phenomenon they claim is unexplained and inexplicable is just another way of restricting your thinking to the one explanation they choose to explore on that program, because it's the hot-button alternative theory. Suspending judgment until you're able to gather more data is what "thinking outside the box" really means. What these programs mean by "thinking outside the box" is "any farfetched claim, as long as it's not the 'official story.'" And typically what you'll find is that these programs understate the strength of prosaic explanations and amplify the credibility of some sensationalist hypothesis. Yes, they serve well to make you aware of intriguing phenomena, but poorly to help you understand what may be causing them.

    It was suggested that the reason the Germans made advancements in technology was because a group within the SS had made alien contact.
    As opposed to the well-documented research and development programs at Peenemunde? There's no "suspicious" progress to explain. Subversion of support.

    ...he [von Braun] apparently replied that they were getting help from aliens.
    Easily debunked: references, or it didn't happen. It's easy to spread rumors. Most of the "U.S. got help from aliens" claims are simply repeated statements that go back to second- or third-hand, undocumented "witness" statements, such as "I was standing next to Neil Armstrong at the urinals in the such-and-such convention center and overheard him talk about aliens."

    ...it is suggested that these elongated skulls are not human...
    But it's proven that they are human, so suggestions to the contrary are irrelevant.

    Would it be possible to take a tooth from one of those skulls, analyse the DNA, and determine if there are 46 chromosones?
    Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. As I said, these programs typically under-reported, downplay, or straight-up ignore contrary evidence. Despite their documentary production values and their airing on "egghead" channels, many of them are nothing more than pseudoscience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
    Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. As I said, these programs typically under-reported, downplay, or straight-up ignore contrary evidence. Despite their documentary production values and their airing on "egghead" channels, many of them are nothing more than pseudoscience.
    The bit I found hilarious in an old Discovery Channel show on those skulls is that they took one, said that DNA analysis had shown it to be from a male, then started playing on the alien origin crap. AFTER JUST FRIGGING PROVING IT HUMAN!
    They did get back to reality after that and covered infant cranial shaping in various cultures, including modern day America.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Beardsley View Post
    Imagine supplying the latest Android apps to Richard the Lionheart.
    Do you think he also posted on Facebook?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
    Most of the "U.S. got help from aliens" claims are simply repeated statements that go back to second- or third-hand, undocumented "witness" statements, such as "I was standing next to Neil Armstrong at the urinals in the such-and-such convention center and overheard him talk about aliens."
    I do think the US space program got help from aliens... legal aliens who were brought into the US from Germany.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    ...legal aliens who were brought into the US from Germany.
    Well, to be fair they were prisoners of war for an awfully long time. Consider also the Commonwealth "aliens" who were refugees from Avro downsizing.

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    I didn't see the show, but I believe you have offered a logical fallacy known as a false dichotomy. Not all humans are male, and not all males are human.

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    If the Germans got help from Aliens they got a bad deal! Not a single Ray Gun? Information on the Cavity Magnetron to bring their Radar somewhere near that of the Allies?
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
    I didn't see the show, but I believe you have offered a logical fallacy known as a false dichotomy. Not all humans are male, and not all males are human.
    But the DNA test for maleness is tailored for human males as the indicators are different for different species.
    Using the test in the first place actually indicates that they were fully aware that it's a human skull.
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    Quote Originally Posted by r4758 View Post
    Hypothesis
    Conjecture, speculation, WAG.

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    About the only intresting aspect of that show, was when there were showing of those 'crystal skull' carvings.

    There were a number of real quartz one, one from rose quartz, and one that appeared to have soem citrine in it. There all appeared rather crudely carved, possibly authetic in make.

    The 'Perfect' one they showed, supposedly quartz, has issues. First, you can tell just by looking at it that it has no imperfections. Any natualy formed peice of quartz that large, would have some imperfections.

    Secondly, the light coming off of it when it refelcts, matches the reflectivity of epoxy resien, not smooth quartz. But they touted that so call 'perfect' skull around the show hamming it up as if it was impossible to make. It was funny really, in that I could make one with about 10 bucks of epoxy resien. And i'd be smart enough to learn how to simulate 'flaws' in my version, before casting the final one.

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