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Thread: Black Holes and suction of space

  1. #61
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    Technically not a boundary, but a saddle point. A point of zero curvature with curvature on each side. Hypothetically speaking of course, without good constraints on dark matter and dark energy.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShinAce View Post
    You still haven't addressed my questions:


    Energy is conserved because of a time symmetry. Whether you boil a pot of water today or tomorrow or yesterday(on the same stove, blah blah blah), it will take the same amount of energy.

    If I take a single electron and put it in a box, there is a chance it will escape within X seconds. How does spacetime curvature explain quantum tunelling? It doesn't, and it fails in many other places too. How does spacetime curvature explain the vastly different halflives of different isotopes?
    You see, I have the same questions for which I'm trying to find answers by asking and being optimistic about the kindness of someone to answer it scientifically. The quantum tunelling I think is one of those questions that has recently concerned some physicists regarding the LENR process in ECAT. By mainstream physics this phenomena is creating some confusion since practically Rossi has shown that something different may exist in this process to counteract the binding energy. However I think If all processes initiate from some kind of spacetime change, then the essence of creation of motion or release of energy could be realized.At a particular configuration of spacetime, quantum tunelling may occur.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhashayarShatti View Post
    Rossi has shown that something different may exist in this process to counteract the binding energy
    As far as I know Rossi has demonstrated nothing at all. I would probably be breaching forum rules if I said what I thought he was doing.

    At a particular configuration of spacetime, quantum tunelling may occur.
    Tunnelling is well understood and explained by quantum physics. As far as I know it does not involve curvature of spacetime.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by KhashayarShatti View Post
    You see, I have the same questions for which I'm trying to find answers by asking and being optimistic about the kindness of someone to answer it scientifically. The quantum tunelling I think is one of those questions that has recently concerned some physicists regarding the LENR process in ECAT. By mainstream physics this phenomena is creating some confusion since practically Rossi has shown that something different may exist in this process to counteract the binding energy. However I think If all processes initiate from some kind of spacetime change, then the essence of creation of motion or release of energy could be realized.At a particular configuration of spacetime, quantum tunelling may occur.
    There is no mainstream confusion about ECAT. There simply aren't any nuclear reactions happening, low-energy or otherwise. Rossi is a fraud, and not a very convincing one. His claims are physically bizarre, he has shown no hard evidence supporting his claims, what evidence he's shown turns out to be clumsily faked (isotope ratios matching natural abundances on Earth, no unstable isotopes), and if there were any truth to his claims there would be unmistakable, impossible-to-fake evidence in the form of huge amounts of radiation for which his shielding would be completely inadequate.

    But aside from that, what does your hand waving about "a particular configuration of spacetime" do to explain, describe, or predict quantum tunneling? Or anything else for that matter?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhashayarShatti View Post
    The quantum tunelling I think is one of those questions that has recently concerned some physicists regarding the LENR process in ECAT. By mainstream physics this phenomena is creating some confusion since practically Rossi has shown that something different may exist in this process to counteract the binding energy.
    No, there's no confusion. ECat is nonsense. Here's a thread that gets into a good amount of detail on this scam:

    http://www.bautforum.com/showthread....yzer-or-E-Cat/

    Rossi has not allowed any verifiable independent tests and his own demos look like fakes (for instance, he demonstrated a device plugged into a wall socket that produces the amont of steam you'd expect if the water were heated conventionally, using a coffee maker or similar). At one time, he said he was going to pay NASA Marshal to test his machine, and that temporarily boosted his credibility, but when it came time to do it, he turned around and demanded NASA pay him $15,000,000. So naturally there was no test.

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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber Robot View Post
    You said "There is no pressure in space." in an earlier post. So, I thought you were talking about space. My apologies. If you're talking about some theoretical vacuum, then yes, there would be no mechanical pressure there.
    Are you saying that there is enough pressure from sparse particlas and isolated atoms to constitute a medium which would convey a pressure as proposed by the OP as being analogous to a vacuum cleaner (ignoring for a second that the solar wind and interplanetary medium are listed as plasmas)? It was my understanding that these atoms and particles are too sparse to interact in the manner typical of what we call gas pressure and instead act as either a particle on an orbital trajectory or they a plasma bound by magnetic fields.
    Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ara Pacis View Post
    Are you saying that there is enough pressure from sparse particlas and isolated atoms to constitute a medium which would convey a pressure as proposed by the OP as being analogous to a vacuum cleaner (ignoring for a second that the solar wind and interplanetary medium are listed as plasmas)? It was my understanding that these atoms and particles are too sparse to interact in the manner typical of what we call gas pressure and instead act as either a particle on an orbital trajectory or they a plasma bound by magnetic fields.
    As sparse as it is, interstellar gas still can function as a fluid on scales of many lightyears, when the expanse of the gas is large compared to the mean free path between collisions of the atoms. If a black hole is immersed in such a puff of gas, the gas will fall into it and generate some fireworks from the compressive heating near the hole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjameshuff View Post
    But aside from that, what does your hand waving about "a particular configuration of spacetime" do to explain, describe, or predict quantum tunneling? Or anything else for that matter?
    I think all atoms vibrate randomly. Does it take place at absolute zero temp?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhashayarShatti View Post
    I think all atoms vibrate randomly.
    Define vibrate in terms of a specific model of atoms.

    Quote Originally Posted by KhashayarShatti View Post
    Does it take place at absolute zero temp?
    We won't that until you specific what you mean by "vibrate"

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by KhashayarShatti View Post
    I think all atoms vibrate randomly. Does it take place at absolute zero temp?
    It's unclear what you're asking or why you're asking it. What does this have to do with the question you quoted? Or even with the thread topic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornblower View Post
    As sparse as it is, interstellar gas still can function as a fluid on scales of many lightyears, when the expanse of the gas is large compared to the mean free path between collisions of the atoms. If a black hole is immersed in such a puff of gas, the gas will fall into it and generate some fireworks from the compressive heating near the hole.
    "Mean free path" is probably the concept I was grasping at. But the OP is talking about pressure on the scale of a blackhole event horizon, which not be measured in light hears but, what, hundreds to thousands of miles? We had been talking about accretion disk pressure separately, in order not to conflate the two. After all, he was asking about photons.
    Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ara Pacis View Post
    Are you saying that there is enough pressure from sparse particlas and isolated atoms to constitute a medium which would convey a pressure as proposed by the OP as being analogous to a vacuum cleaner (ignoring for a second that the solar wind and interplanetary medium are listed as plasmas)?
    I won't comment about vacuum cleaners, but as Hornblower points out, there is pressure in space. And that is what I was responding to, the comment about no pressure in space.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ara Pacis View Post
    "Mean free path" is probably the concept I was grasping at. But the OP is talking about pressure on the scale of a blackhole event horizon, which not be measured in light hears but, what, hundreds to thousands of miles? We had been talking about accretion disk pressure separately, in order not to conflate the two. After all, he was asking about photons.
    I think he was talking about something other than gas. I an not sure what that something was supposed to be.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber Robot View Post
    I won't comment about vacuum cleaners, but as Hornblower points out, there is pressure in space. And that is what I was responding to, the comment about no pressure in space.
    So, there is no vacuum in space, but apparently comments in a thread exist in a vacuum. Got it.
    Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornblower View Post
    I think he was talking about something other than gas. I an not sure what that something was supposed to be.
    It didn't seem that clear to me. He was conflating a lot of ideas, so it's hard to respond to that without appearing to conflate ideas. One might try making blanket statements that approximate reality so that he might understand the difference and stop conflating them. Or we can attempt a thread of attrition by arguing in the trenches of nitpicking semantics and ignore that part where not only is he not right, he's not even wrong.
    Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.

  16. #76
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    Tensor, cjameshuff
    As far as I can remember from college physics text books, all atoms in a lattice vibrate.
    Vibration is thought to be related to temperature, and collision of atoms is related to pressure and stress within lattice(similar to a gas under pressure at a temp above zero kelvin).
    Now if there would be suction of spacetime within the lattice which might be the main cause of temp. and press. then this spacetime may vibrate and have +peak and -peak within the lattice. If vibration of individual atoms would be random,then at particular parts of the lattice these peaks may cause peak -curvature and +curvature. These peak +ve or ve- curvatures may provide the ability for quantum tunelling or fusion .For this reason I think inside BH, could exist very heavy elements as well.

    It may give a clue if:
    1- at zero kelvin, the rate of disintegration may reduce since atoms vibrate less(perhaps zero vibration). Surely experimental results exist to show what happens.

    2- at zero kelvin it could be possible to vibrate the lattice in phase and create atomic resonance(I already have said a few words about this in my previous threads)?

    3- imposing high frequency artificial vibration within a lattice leads to variation in the rate of tunelling.

    In these cases the possibilty that spacetime suction exists could be boosted and may give a clue about quantum tunelling and halflives.

    My last question is to some extent unrelated to the thread topic, but since +peaks may exist in spacetime curvature and fusion may take place, would it be possible to have cold fusion in this case?

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhashayarShatti View Post
    Tensor, cjameshuff
    As far as I can remember from college physics text books, all atoms in a lattice vibrate.
    As far as you can remember? You mean you haven't even bothered to research if there has been any progress in this before making claims? Can you show how this works, in a lattice, AS CURRENTLY EXPLAINED, with second quantization?

    Quote Originally Posted by KhashayarShatti View Post
    Vibration is thought to be related to temperature, and collision of atoms is related to pressure and stress within lattice(similar to a gas under pressure at a temp above zero kelvin).
    Yeah, and how does the creation of phonons through second quantization affect your contention here?

    Quote Originally Posted by KhashayarShatti View Post
    Now if there would be suction of spacetime within the lattice which might be the main cause of temp. and press.
    Yeah, you still haven't shown suction of spacetime. Just some claims, which haven't been shown to make any kind of numerical predictions. And besides, as far as I can tell, it isn't a mainstream concept anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by KhashayarShatti View Post
    then this spacetime may vibrate and have +peak and -peak within the lattice.
    Can you explain why you need spacetime to vibrate, when lattice waves, along with phonons, describe by quantum processes, describes the process quite well? Not to mention, these descriptions have the mathematics to back them up. Your math is, where?

    Quote Originally Posted by KhashayarShatti View Post
    If vibration of individual atoms would be random,
    If? You mean you haven't bothered to look into current thought on the matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by KhashayarShatti View Post
    then at particular parts of the lattice these peaks may cause peak -curvature and +curvature. These peak +ve or ve- curvatures may provide the ability for quantum tunelling or fusion .
    Exactly how would this work, mathematically? How does this differ, mathematically, from quantum tunneling as described by Quantum Field Theory. How does Fusion differ here, from Quantum Field Theory?

    Quote Originally Posted by KhashayarShatti View Post
    For this reason I think inside BH, could exist very heavy elements as well.
    By all means, show us how the interior of a black hole is similar to a lattice. How and where are the quantum processes operable within the black hole? And how, mathematically, this would lead to heavy elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by KhashayarShatti View Post
    It may give a clue if:
    1- at zero kelvin, the rate of disintegration may reduce since atoms vibrate less(perhaps zero vibration). Surely experimental results exist to show what happens.

    2- at zero kelvin it could be possible to vibrate the lattice in phase and create atomic resonance(I already have said a few words about this in my previous threads)?

    3- imposing high frequency artificial vibration within a lattice leads to variation in the rate of tunelling.

    In these cases the possibilty that spacetime suction exists could be boosted and may give a clue about quantum tunelling and halflives.

    My last question is to some extent unrelated to the thread topic, but since +peaks may exist in spacetime curvature and fusion may take place, would it be possible to have cold fusion in this case?
    None of the clues are anything more than extreme speculations that have no basis in experiment, in any kind of cognizant theory. Show us the experiments, the mathematical and theoretical background of your proposal, and how the math and theory match the experiment. Otherwise it's just more nonsense.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tensor View Post
    ... Otherwise it's just more nonsense.
    Yes. Thread closed. Once again ATM specualtion has been dressed up as questions by the OP.
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