Disappearing Thread

[Jeff Root]

crosscountry,

As described by Moose and others, the chances of a
thread being deleted by mistake or carelessness are
vanishingly small. That can't be what happened here.

My immediate questions are whether there are other
possibilities (either for finding the cause or finding the
threads) that haven't been examined yet, and who is
going to do what next. The problem is nowhere near
resolved, so somebody should be doing something.
But who is doing what?

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[slang]

The problem is nowhere near
resolved, so somebody should be doing something.
But who is doing what?

Would you mind publishing your ignore list here? I simply cannot believe you're still asking this with all the answers given previously.

[Jeff Root]

slang,

We don't know what caused the disappearances.
Do you agree with that assessment?

We don't have a plan for further action.
Do you agree with that assessment?

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Tobin Dax]

Jeff, what do you propose that they do now, after they have done everything they possibly can?

[Jim]

slang,

We don't know what caused the disappearances.
Do you agree with that assessment?

We don't have a plan for further action.
Do you agree with that assessment?

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

You may not have noticed, but slang is not a Moderator. Asking him what the Mods have done and/or intend to do is fruitless.

So...

What we have done is check on various ways an established thread could be accidentally deleted as spam. We could find no plausible scenarios.

We have discussed other possible ways for an established thread to be accidentally deleted. We can find no plausible ones other than human error.

With no real evidence to examine, we are at a loss to explain what happened. We do know what probably didn't happen.

We have conducted a thorough search of BAUT for the missing thread. We were unable to locate it.

We have investigated the possibility of restoring that thread and only that thread from the backup (which does, BTW, exist). Such a task is complicated, difficult, and not something Fraser (the only one with the necessary permissions) really wants to attempt. (There is always the chance such an attempt would do more harm than good.)

Our "plan for further action" is to be even more diligent and work to keep such a thing from happening again.

We are also looking into ways to modify how spam is handled (although, IMO, since that's not what happened here, such changes are not necessary). I suppose we could just stop killing spam altogether, approve all posts - make approval automatic - and let BAUT Members enjoy. I don't think we'll do that.

But that would not have prevented the loss of that thread.

Jeff, the Mods have taken their collective best shot. We are not ignoring the issue and we are not lazy. Such accusations/insinuations are not helpful, they are hurtful, and they are insulting.

We try. We're human.

[pzkpfw]

(There's also been a change to how registration works, that has HUGELY reduce the amount of spam threads we get in the first place. It wasn't uncommon to go to the Off Topic Babbling forum and have 20 to 30 spam threads to dump. Now we hardly see any.

(The only worry is if we are preventing real people registering...))

[R.A.F.]

(The only worry is if we are preventing real people registering...))

You mean those with receipes?....I'm confused.

[pzkpfw]

Well, I'm personally more concerned about new members wanting to register to ask astronomy questions or wanting to participate in a science discussion. But new members who wish to register to post recipes are also welcome, and we don't want the anti-spam registration process to stop any of them getting in.

[Jeff Root]

Jim, "Tobin Dax",

I already knew what Jim just said, since it had been
said previously. The executive summary of what Jim
just said is what I said in my last post: The cause of
the disappearance is still unknown and there is no
plan for what to do next.

The notion "they have done everything they possibly
can" is ridiculous.

As for this specific instance: Restoring an old version
of BAUT (from a few weeks ago) *should* be perfectly
straightforward. I expect that crosscountry would not
mind spending a few hours copying the thread he
started into the current version of BAUT.

Beyond that, as I already said twice, you (moderators,
administrators, and Fraser) *must* make certain that
there are at least three people who can make backups
and restore them when needed, and keep BAUT running
when Fraser is not able to. I blame myself for not
making a greater effort in the past few years to ensure
that this is being done. If there other tasks that are
not getting done, then either get more volunteers or
hire professional help.

I keep thinking of the scene in 'The Pirates of Silicon
Valley' when Apple got an order for 30 computers, and
a shocked Steve Wozniak (I think it was) exclaimed
"I can't build thirty computers!"

Also, the cause of the thread loss may never be known,
but as far as I know, the programmer(s) or other people
who know how vBulletin actually works haven't even
been consulted yet. If not, then you haven't really
started to look for the cause yet.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[pzkpfw]

The backup would have to be restored into a temporary database.

(It couldn't be restored into the current BAUT because then we'd lose everything done since.)

Then, for the user-driven copying you suggest, someone would have to have U.I. access to that temporary database. e.g. make a whole new forum that uses that database as its source.

It's just not practical.

(If we were a bank restoring someones glitched cheque account, maybe.)

[Tobin Dax]

That's a whole lot of work (and a whole lot of presumption and demand) to be able to see what someone had for dinner three years ago. Real life doesn't work like you want it to, and BAUT may not, either. Nor vBulletin, for that matter. (Consider that a general "you.")

Jeff, are you willing to do any leg work yourself? Are you volunteering to pay for the professional help you demand? Are you going to find the next Steve Jobs? Or are you just going to keep demanding that somebody work to fix the problem? That last option isn't going to get anywhere.

[Gillianren]

The notion "they have done everything they possibly can" is ridiculous.

No, what's ridiculous is demanding that anything more be done. Restoring the whole forum, should it go down, is possible. Restoring a single missing thread? Not even a little feasible. I'm sure the mod team can ask the software people to look into what happened; it would surprise me if they hadn't. However, given that there is almost nothing on a software level actually handled by the mod team, asking them to deal with an issue like this will not accomplish anything. They do not have the access. In order to restore a single thread without at minimum hours of work, by the sound of it, would require access even Fraser may not have. I'm sorry, but that's just how it is, and persisting in demanding that it be a different way won't help.

[Van Rijn]

Jim, thanks for your post.

I can't see much more to do with this at the moment except this:

For everyone, not putting this on admins and mods, just keep your eyes open, and mention if you see any other threads disappear ASAP.

[Van Rijn]

As for this specific instance: Restoring an old version
of BAUT (from a few weeks ago) *should* be perfectly
straightforward. I expect that crosscountry would not
mind spending a few hours copying the thread he
started into the current version of BAUT.

Well, there's one way it might have been possible, and it wouldn't have required a moderator (though it would probably be a good idea to check with one first . . .). Namely, an extension of what I did, and demonstrated in thread: Look the old thread up in the Google Cache, and do a cut and paste in new posts.

Sure, it would have been messy, and taken a long time to do, and it might not have been complete (though I think the cache had the full thread . . .) but it would have been a possible method if you thought the information was important enough. Unfortunately, it seems to be flushed from the cache now, but if a similar situation comes up again, it could be considered.

[HenrikOlsen]

n order to restore a single thread without at minimum hours of work, by the sound of it, would require access even Fraser may not have. I'm sorry, but that's just how it is, and persisting in demanding that it be a different way won't help.

Actually, in order to put in the hours of work it will require to restore the thread, they'd need access even Fraser may not have.

Jeff Root clearly has absolutely no idea about the type and amount of work required and the level of access needed and is frankly starting to sound like a UFO believer who insists on wanting more evidence that a 20 year old blob on a photo isn't aliens.

It's not something anyone currently participating in this discussion has access to do, and demanding that they still do so anyway is not going to accomplish anything.

[HenrikOlsen]

Sure, it would have been messy, and taken a long time to do, and it might not have been complete (though I think the cache had the full thread . . .) but it would have been a possible method if you thought the information was important enough. Unfortunately, it seems to be flushed from the cache now, but if a similar situation comes up again, it could be considered.

You'll lose who posted what and when, unless you're suggesting posting the whole thread in one post.

[Van Rijn]

You'll lose who posted what and when, unless you're suggesting posting the whole thread in one post.

The poster names and times are in the cache. It probably would have been too big for all the thread to fit in one post, but yes, I'd assume multiple original posts in a single new post. The level of editing up to whoever does it, but putting quote tags and including names in the tags would help make it more readable. Still, as I said, it would be messy, but it would be possible.

[Van Rijn]

Oh, and in case it isn't clear . . . I am NOT suggesting the moderators should have done this. I'm just saying ANY poster or posters here could have done this if they thought the information was important enough to keep.

[HenrikOlsen]

Beyond that, as I already said twice, you (moderators,
administrators, and Fraser) *must* make certain that
there are at least three people who can make backups
and restore them when needed, and keep BAUT running
when Fraser is not able to. I blame myself for not
making a greater effort in the past few years to ensure
that this is being done. If there other tasks that are
not getting done, then either get more volunteers or
hire professional help.

Is this an offer to pay for that level of service? Because you're already doing your level best to ensure there's no volunteers.

And do remember to specify what you mean by "backup" because you're definitely not using its common definition.

[Jeff Root]

The backup would have to be restored into a temporary
database.

Of course. You explained that previously, and it's fairly
obvious. The main question is what computer could be
used. That's why I asked the 3 questions in post #128:

What is the current size of a full backup?

Is BAUT currently running on a single computer or on
multiple computers simultaneously?

What are the current minimum hardware requirements
to host BAUT without excessive slowdowns?

Then, for the user-driven copying you suggest,
someone would have to have U.I. access to that
temporary database. e.g. make a whole new
forum that uses that database as its source.

Naturally. I suggested that crosscountry do it,
if he wants to. I hope he does. If he learns how
to restore one thread, he should be able to restore
any thread.

It's just not practical.

Huh? Why not?

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Jeff Root]

Jeff, are you willing to do any leg work yourself?
Are you volunteering to pay for the professional
help you demand?

The professional help was the second choice after
getting more volunteer help, which is needed in any
case. I can't pay all the costs, but I'll pay a share.
I know there will be some costs even if no specialists
are required. I'll put in $300 if I see a reasonable
plan developing.

Are you going to find the next Steve Jobs?

No. What on Earth would I want with a Steve Jobs
if I could find one?

Or are you just going to keep demanding that
somebody work to fix the problem?

The only demands I've made are for things that
absolutely have to be done. Namely get more
volunteer help and make certain that the BAUT
organization is able to recover from a range of
likely disasters, such as disappearing threads.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[pzkpfw]

Huh? Why not?

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

Yeah, if you are not getting that then you really are, in my opinion, far too concerned about this.

[Moose]

Jeff Root clearly has absolutely no idea about the type and amount of work required and the level of access needed and is frankly starting to sound like a UFO believer who insists on wanting more evidence that a 20 year old blob on a photo isn't aliens.

Just want to point out, as your explanation of what's required was basically good, a temporary database isn't enough. We'd also need, at minimum, a temp database of the backup and a temp database of now for testing, and the ability to restore the destination test database frequently. These are resources we do not have nor can we obtain.

The thing many among us are missing is that BAUT is a production database. Experimenting with a production database is risky. You have exactly one shot to do it right, and this sort of conversion operation is not a trivial one, particularly since we really don't understand what happened. Before we do anything, we need to have an understanding of what happened. To understand what happened, we have to be able to reproduce it. Let me repeat: we are on a production database, and serious testing within this environment would be an act of lunacy.

For what it's worth, before I got fed up with lunatic demands I couldn't ignore and instead got my teaching degree, one of my last big projects was precisely this sort of inter-database conversion script. (Much bigger, uglier environment.) Another major role I had was diagnosing when things either went awry with the delivered product, or pilot error happened. I quickly became the go-to guy among the users for this sort of thing. I probably have the most recent direct experience tracking this sort of event, and the best direct knowledge of the time/expense/risks involved. Maybe.

And so, let me repeat: a serious stab at figuring out what happened and/or restoring the thread is risky and expensive. In my mind, any demand to do so anyway had better be accompanied by a meaningful commitment to mitigate that risk and expense.

[NEOWatcher]

The professional help was the second choice after
getting more volunteer help, which is needed in any
case. I can't pay all the costs, but I'll pay a share.
I know there will be some costs even if no specialists
are required. I'll put in $300 if I see a reasonable
plan developing.

For any of the plans to make sense, this is not a one time cost. It's going to take manpower and equipment to maintain that level of restoration ability as has been discussed.

The only demands I've made are for things that
absolutely have to be done.

This is the root of this whole thread.
This is a volunteer board, it is a free board, we (the members) don't even get those little google ads that are easily ignored. For many of us (and I would stretch that to most but don't have the numbers) use this board as a pastime, or break in the daily grind, or just give us the opportunity to discuss issues at a certain level of knowledge. So; "have to be done" is in the eye of the beholder. We all have our own level of what "has to be done".

I respect that you think that this board is important. I'm actually glad to see how important it can be in someones life because it's an indicator of a long lasting board. Unfortunately, from this thread, I don't see that level of importance from many others.

I like the google cache idea. The effort and resources seem to fit the frequency of the problem. If you are looking for volunteers, why can't you volunteer yourself to do it?

And, by the way. We know what's missing and we know up to when, but do we know when they actually disappeared? That would be up to all the members to notice. And if not noticed in a timely manner, then the knowledge of what could have happened get lost.

I see this all the time at work. A user gets an error message (some of which we do log) and doesn't report it until long after it happened, and only if it causes a problem. Those are a pain in neck to analyze what happened.

[antoniseb]

See my new post about name change...

[crosscountry]

Is this an offer to pay for that level of service? Because you're already doing your level best to ensure there's no volunteers.

And do remember to specify what you mean by "backup" because you're definitely not using its common definition.

Hi Everyone,

We are exploring ways to make this a better forum. One that is likely to take place is that a non-profit organization is being formed by Fraser and Pamela (et al), and it will have the budget for backups among other management things. The current name they are considering is Cosmoquest Forums but that is not final. It will still be the unified forum for both Bad Astronomy and Universe Today.

The overall structure of our forums, rules, and the unpaid nature of the admin and moderator jobs will stay intact. We will probably have new/more members.

At this point the date for the change is unknown. We will keep you up to date as things move forward.

Just this morning
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread....um-Name-Change

[HenrikOlsen]

Backup's are already being paid for and can be used for restoring the board.

That's still not the issue.

Unrealistic expectations are not going to be fulfilled by the new setup either.

[Tobin Dax]

Just this morning
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread....um-Name-Change

Coincidence is a wonderful thing.

[antoniseb]

Backup's are already being paid for and can be used for restoring the board. ...

In the new environment, it will still be an expensive, time-and-resource consuming matter to recover a lost thread, but a procedure will be in place to make it possible.