View Poll Results: Which best describes your position on corporal punishment?

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  • Never necessary

    6 40.00%
  • Sometimes necessary

    9 60.00%
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Thread: Child rearing

  1. #1
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    Child rearing

    I voted "never necessary."

    I think children "misbehave" due to improper parenting and/or mental impairments/defective genes.

  2. #2
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    Ever been a parent?
    I don't see any Ice Giants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
    Ever been a parent?
    No.

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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    I think children "misbehave" due to improper parenting and/or mental impairments/defective genes.
    I cannot think of a statement that is more wrong, I am a parent of three and I have more than a decade of experience dealing with children and adults who have mental/physical impairments.
    Solfe

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    "You're only given one little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it." Robin Williams.

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    I misbehaved a good bit as a child, teenager, and well on since. Why, I even misbehave sometimes now at the age of 45.

    Why did I misbehave? Because I was a little (jerk) at times and enjoyed the devil out of doing bad things. It wasn't genes (other than the normal complement of a human being, which seems to produce these same character traits in just about the entire human population). It wasn't bad parenting. Good parenting has to deal with that inborn tendency to misbehave like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by publius View Post
    I misbehaved a good bit as a child, teenager, and well on since. Why, I even misbehave sometimes now at the age of 45.

    Why did I misbehave? Because I was a little (jerk) at times and enjoyed the devil out of doing bad things. It wasn't genes (other than the normal complement of a human being, which seems to produce these same character traits in just about the entire human population). It wasn't bad parenting. Good parenting has to deal with that inborn tendency to misbehave like that.
    Why are some kids bigger (jerk)'s than others?

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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    Why are some kids bigger (jerk)'s than others?
    Not enough clips 'round their ears.
    I don't see any Ice Giants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    Why are some kids bigger (jerk)'s than others?
    Why are some kids better at school, sports, etc, etc, etc, than others?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
    Not enough clips 'round their ears.
    What does that mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by publius View Post
    Why are some kids better at school, sports, etc, etc, etc, than others?
    Genes, environment/parenting.

  11. #11
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    How do you define "misbehave" and "corporal punishment"?

    I would term "misbehave" as anything that is sufficiently disruptive and unexpected. I would term "corporal punishment" as anything that inspires fear in the victim. And I do mean anything - an arched eyebrow or glance would suffice.
    Solfe

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    "You're only given one little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it." Robin Williams.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    I would term "misbehave" as anything that is sufficiently disruptive and unexpected. I would term "corporal punishment" as anything that inspires fear in the victim. And I do mean anything - an arched eyebrow or glance would suffice.
    I suppose you can define terms how you want, but since corporal means body, I find it difficult not to define it in some way that requires physical contact.

    About the original posting, my own view is that humans are by nature social animals. We are not made to be lone hunters. So we have, and always have had, social systems. And part of the social system is older individuals teaching younger ones how to behave properly. I think it's a fundamental part of human society compared to say spider society. Spider parents don't teach their children how to behave, they act on pure instinct. But humans need teaching. A good example is language. Children isolated from society end up (I believe) not being able to speak at all. And talking to children so that they learn language is in reality part of child-rearing. Similarly, not taking away other kids' toys is a social rule that we have, and babies don't understand it unless they are told so.
    As above, so below

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    How do you define "misbehave" and "corporal punishment"?

    I would term "misbehave" as anything that is sufficiently disruptive and unexpected. I would term "corporal punishment" as anything that inspires fear in the victim. And I do mean anything - an arched eyebrow or glance would suffice.
    "Misbehave" --- Whatever the parent determines it to be.
    "Corporal punishment" --- What I had in mind was striking the child... but I would also consider "inspiring fear" as abusive.

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    And in regard to this, it's worth taking a look at this excellent paper from a very reputable online publication.
    As above, so below

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I suppose you can define terms how you want, but since corporal means body, I find it difficult not to define it in some way that requires physical contact.
    I was raise a pacifist and later rejected it. I have a very goofy perspective on violence. Its not you, it really is me.
    Solfe

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    "You're only given one little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it." Robin Williams.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    "Misbehave" --- Whatever the parent determines it to be.
    If the definition of "misbehaving" is completely open to interpretation, how is it possible to identify a cause?

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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    I think children "misbehave" due to improper parenting and/or mental impairments/defective genes.
    There are many methods of learning, but trial and error is one of the most common and most effective. Thus, it is normal to test boundaries and misbehave. It's not like the instruction code of genetics is a computer program that executes precisely. Also, evolution has lead to a very common method of reinforcing learning called "pain", which often happens when an organism makes a mistake. Unfortunately, many of those errors also result in death. A burned hand teaches best, but many parents have a tendency to try to avoid the more expensive learning errors that would result in death for their children. Hence, many rely in burned-hand proxies, such as spanking.
    Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.

  18. #18
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    Young children are not the same as reasoning adults. They don't fully comprehend cause-and-effect, nor consequences. They are experimenting with the World. They are learning by trying things out. Physically and socially, they are built to push the boundaries. They are also born thinking they are the centre of the World (I cry, feed me...).

    Put these things together, and you'll find that often the best way to stop a child running with scissors, or crossing the road without looking, is a short sharp shock. The "damage" done by a clip 'round the ear is far less than the damage done by a car.

    I am very very suspicious of anyone who says they've never ever needed to resort to minor corporal punishment to "educate" (or even protect) their child. It's certainly an edge case, if true.

    I am also suspicious of people who have never been parents, telling actual parents the best way (by implication if not directly) to raise children.
    I don't see any Ice Giants.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ara Pacis View Post
    A burned hand teaches best, but many parents have a tendency to try to avoid the more expensive learning errors that would result in death for their children. Hence, many rely in burned-hand proxies, such as spanking.
    That reminds me. When I was a little kid, still in the highchair, my mother was using some matches and happened to put them down right next to me and turned her back to do something. I got one out and struck it, then just held on to it until it burned my fingers, at which point I screamed out in pain, which alerted my mother. I don't remember any of that, but I do remember I had a strong aversion to matches. I can remember the aversion.

    Anyway, my father actually made me handle the matches and strike one and that cured the aversion. He went through striking one holding my hands and then had me do it by myself. I can remember that episode. I must have been somewhere around 10 years old or so.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    "Misbehave" --- Whatever the parent determines it to be.
    "Corporal punishment" --- What I had in mind was striking the child... but I would also consider "inspiring fear" as abusive.
    have some kids, then come back here after they reach the age of 5 or so and tell us how well behaved your kids are when they grow up thinking that there are no consequences for acting up- and more importantly, tell us how the other people that your kids interact with in public places like grocery stores feel about the way your kids act in public..

  21. #21
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    "No Corporal punishment" and "no consequences" are not the same.

    Not having had any children I would say that as far as I have been able to observer and read, corporal punishment is the easy shortcut to teaching consequences, it's not a requirement for doing so.

    Note though that there's a continuous scale from corporal punishment to physical abuse, without an easily recognizable, identical for every child, point beyond which it is damaging.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen View Post
    Not having had any children I would say that as far as I have been able to observer and read, corporal punishment is the easy shortcut to teaching consequences, it's not a requirement for doing so.
    I agree that what we call "corporal punishment" is not necessarily the only was of disciplining, if "corporal punishment" means hitting. For example (and speaking as a parent), holding a young child's hands, not in a way that hurts, while saying, "no, no, no," is also a way that teaches proper behavior while not actually hitting.
    As above, so below

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    Quote Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
    I am very very suspicious of anyone who says they've never ever needed to resort to minor corporal punishment to "educate" (or even protect) their child. It's certainly an edge case, if true..
    How true. Putting minor corporal punishment into perspective, something far worse seems to have developed from the concept that physical punishment is bad, namely, no punishment at all. Parents (and teachers) without what it takes to reprimand a child without a clip round the ears (time, energy, some intelligence) often resort to doing nothing at all. The result is the child's perception that they can get away with anything, because there are no punishments.

  24. #24
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    It's against the law here. So I suppose the official opinion goes with option 2.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
    How true. Putting minor corporal punishment into perspective, something far worse seems to have developed from the concept that physical punishment is bad, namely, no punishment at all. Parents (and teachers) without what it takes to reprimand a child without a clip round the ears (time, energy, some intelligence) often resort to doing nothing at all. The result is the child's perception that they can get away with anything, because there are no punishments.
    Recent local news: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/educ...***-discipline

    Increasing numbers of fed-up parents want schools to get tough on discipline.

    A recent international study ranked New Zealand students among the worst-behaved in the world, and Secondary Principals' Association president Patrick Walsh said there was a sea change in how discipline was perceived in schools.

    "The public and parents are becoming less tolerant with the restorative justice approach, and want schools to get tough on serious offenders."

    While a restorative justice approach had been widely adopted, research showed children's behaviour had grown worse in the past decade, with sexual and physical assaults increasing.

    ...
    I don't see any Ice Giants.

  26. #26
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    Two kids, never found corporal punishment necessary. imho, many of the parents who claim corporal punishment is necessary are unwilling to take the time to use more effective, albeit more time consuming methods of correction.
    Information about American English usage here and here. Floating point issues? Please read this before posting.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
    Young children are not the same as reasoning adults. They don't fully comprehend cause-and-effect, nor consequences. They are experimenting with the World. They are learning by trying things out. Physically and socially, they are built to push the boundaries. They are also born thinking they are the centre of the World (I cry, feed me...).

    Put these things together, and you'll find that often the best way to stop a child running with scissors, or crossing the road without looking, is a short sharp shock. The "damage" done by a clip 'round the ear is far less than the damage done by a car.

    I am very very suspicious of anyone who says they've never ever needed to resort to minor corporal punishment to "educate" (or even protect) their child. It's certainly an edge case, if true.

    I am also suspicious of people who have never been parents, telling actual parents the best way (by implication if not directly) to raise children.
    I'm not a parent, but this basically mirrors my thoughts as well. A reasoned approach is fine, but there may times when making it very clear that going "here" makes for a sore bottom. As a kid, one of those things was hanging around with the kid down the street. I was told not to, and I was given very clear repercussions if I did. I still hung out with him from time to time, and got caught twice. It was the only thing I ever got a spanking for, and because it literally hurt my dad's hand more than my butt, he used a plastic baseball bat. Three whacks each time.

    For lesser offenses, I was given extra duties around the house, or guilt trips. He was really good at guilt trips.

    As far as kids doing stupid things that a swift smack might stop, I had two I can remember. Both was when I was about four. I didn't believe that bones in a finger were really as thin as the ones in the encyclopedia (my mom got me a set of the World Book when I was two). To test it, I ran a staple through my finger. If I was right, the points would stop when they hit the bone, or they would flare out. I don't remember the result, but I suspect I was wrong.

    The other was the cigarette lighter in the car. I knew it was hot, because that's what color the stove gets when we cook stuff. I wondered if it was less hot because it was smaller. Smaller things can't get as hot, right? So I pressed my thumb into it. I was wrong. Again.

    Would I have learned the same lesson if I'd had my hands slapped? I don't know. I might have been in my "cat phase" then, where I was being punished for being seen doing whatever it was I was doing, not for what I was doing, and tried it again when no one was looking.

    For what it's worth, I never considered the whacks with the plastic bat to be abuse. It was essentially an avoidable consequence of my actions, and I knew about it well in advance. That same bat was used as my alarm clock on mornings I'd oversleep. He'd come in and attack me Pink Panther style. I'd have to grab another stick or something to defend myself. It was all in fun, and there was no connection in my head between that and the whackings.

    I don't advocate smacking kids as a general rule, but I do feel there are times when the urgency of the message outweighs all else. I don't even smack the dogs, though we did ask the vet to say "not food" when she jabbed the Little Dumb One for his shots, in the hopes that it would sink in a little.
    I'm Not Evil.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    "Misbehave" --- Whatever the parent determines it to be.
    "Corporal punishment" --- What I had in mind was striking the child... but I would also consider "inspiring fear" as abusive.
    Several years ago we had a father and son duo committing a series of armed robberies. The father told the son to cut a girl's throat. The son didn't cut deeply enough and the girl was able to run through the broken window and get help. The father was reportedly very cross with the son for not doing what he was told.

    Misbehave needs a better definition.

    I think all punishment inspires fear on some level. A kid that doesn't want to sit in the Time Out Chair must be afraid of that punishment for it to have any corrective influence.
    I'm Not Evil.
    An evil person would do the things that pop into my head.

  29. #29
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    Originally Posted by P Timmy
    Why are some kids bigger (jerk)'s than others?
    Originally Posted by pzkpfw
    Not enough clips 'round their ears.
    What does that mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
    a short sharp shock.
    Oh... I guess that means a slap to the child's ear... and I agree that must quite a shock... especially if blindsided.

    When I was laid off for six months I took care of a child (9 hours per day) which was around two years old... and her parents would never have slapped at her ears to discipline/teach... they merely slapped at her hands and said shouted no when she misbehaved.

  30. #30
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    Which best describes your position on corporal punishment?
    None of the above?

    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    ... I guess that means a slap to the child's ear...
    You can assume that...I wouldn't...I can think of many things that "shock" that are competely non-physical.

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