Also everyone... please watch all parts. It's very intriguing.
Banned
Also everyone... please watch all parts. It's very intriguing.
Order of Kilopi
I thought we were talking about a UFO. They claim they saw something they couldn't identify. How did you establish that a saucer shaped craft would be the only possible explanation for their statements?Originally Posted by Aethelwulf
Oh, I'm very serious. You started this with a claim of hard evidence but you haven't presented any hard evidence, and you seem to be jumping to conclusions rather than going through the steps actually establishing evidence. Here you already seem to have decided there was a "saucer shaped craft." You haven't shown how you evaluated and rejected mundane explanations, or that you even considered such.If you have no intentions or any interest, then leave and don't spam this thread with idle words.
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?
The Leif Ericson Cruiser
Order of Kilopi
There are claims something was seen.
We don't know what it was (even assuming it was real).
We know eye witness (of all ages, profession and experience) are notoriously unreliable.
There are claims some evidence (and witnesses?) was destroyed/hidden - but there is obviously no evidence of that.
At this distance we have no way of getting any more information.
I guess we come back to the point you made, it is a UFO: unidentified (and unidentifiable).
So, in the sense you defined it, obviously UFOs are "real": people see things (or think they see things) that can't be identified/explained. But we all know that.
I'm just not sure where we go from there. (Beyond, "gosh, that's curious".)
I don't mean to sound defeatist, but even if you can come up with a speculative explanation for one case, it probably doesn't say anything about the others. And there is no reason to believe that speculation above any other.
Order of Kilopi
But, as you say, there is no evidence that the girl existed. I remember all sorts of fantastic stories flying around at school. Some of these involved people who didn't exist.
Banned
The Military official in the video who gives his speculations on how the Military could have shown up so quickly does have a major hole in his reasoning. The Military could have been chasing the object for a while on radar... if the object was not going anywhere fast, that gives them enough time to deploy units and get there. This all lies on how long this object was known to be hovering in the vicinity.
Banned
Yes... but they weren't usually shared by your teachers now was it?
Established Member
OK, ignore me at your peril. But I can supply a wealth of information about the Westall incident. At the time I was a young lad living in suburban Melbourne, not that far away.I can't be bothered with people like you.
(Carn St Kilda - onya Darryl Baldock & Ian Stewart.. (anyone who knows Melbourne of that era will know why I say that - it's in Strine code, but is proof positive!))
I would invite readers to do their own research into the VERY FIRST report of the Westall incident, and then compare that to later stories. It is quite amusing - the later additions are like a ludicrously exaggerated game of 'Chinese Whispers'!
Perfect example indeed... And I like the irony of using an unsupported Youtube video as some kind of evidence, rather than acknowledging it is merely more hearsay.
As a sad aside, I was listening to the news coverage last night of the sad loss of Robin Gibb. A recording company executive was interviewed and gave a recollection of his initial meeting with Robin as a youth, and recounted that Gibb was able to write a couple of songs in a very short space of time, to meet the need for enough material for a recording session. But later in the news coverage, that person's business partner at the time was also interviewed and completely contradicted the earlier story in several key aspects, including that the other guy wasn't even there... woops.
I am of the opinion that both people believed their stories were 100% true. Such is the nature of recollection - I hope those guys have managed to amicably sort out their memories..And what reason did they have to make up their stories?
Anyway, if anyone actually has any 'evidence', I'm happy to roll out what I know. Interestingly, the most likely candidate for the Westall 'thing', is a weather balloon released at Laverton Weather Bureau, directly downwind from there at 8:30am that morning.
You may laugh, but sometimes, it IS a weather balloon!
Banned
Of course it was real. It was even seen by witnesses outside of the school. Again... I take it you want the audience today to believe it was some kind of mass hallucination... even by people who weren't involved in the school?
Your logic is lacking far too much for me to even want to participate. Use your brain, please.
Banned
Really? Explain to me why you are so bound not to believe this... short and sweet... because you did not attend that school as far as I can establish, nor where you witness to the event.
Order of Kilopi
Oh, sorry. You only referred to it as the Westall Incident. I missed where you included anything actually relevant and verifiable.
The Wiki actually seems to make a pretty good case that a bunch of people saw something that could have been the balloon released earlier that day. The two newspaper articles look more like they were trying to dredge up the mystery to keep the sales going.
As for the video, There are 4 parts, so I'm assuming about an hour. I'm not watching for an hour just to get the important bits (like the year) that should have been included in the initial post that (ideally) would have laid out all the facts of the matter with proper references.
I'm Not Evil.
An evil person would do the things that pop into my head.
Banned
Evidence please! And I'd rather trust adult stories rather than children. Children don't have the observational powers as adults do... however, if anyone even denies they even saw anything is just ridiculous.
Banned
yes... even the teachers where fooled by a slow moving weather balloon. Maybe you could explain to me why a weather balloon involves 20 military jeeps and why they where all sworn to secrecy?
A Balloon surely does not fit the bill.
Banned
I gave you something better than references. I gave you the witness testimony and a first hand investigation. If you are not interested in learning about it... please, just do not participate.
Order of Kilopi
Did I say it wasn't?
Established Member
I take this to mean then that there is no evidence to back up the story of the girl "they made to vanish" then, which does make it a classic case of this sort of "MIB activity". However, regardless of if it is true, a fabrication or indeed if the children did hallucinate the nameless girl all along there isn't anything to go on there so I suggest it's best dropped entirely.
The army does seem to have send investigators to the scene however, although I don't know where this information is from exactly since Shane Ryan who was investigating the incident in 2005 for a book reports trying to obtain police and RAAF reports but seems to have failed to do so.
OTOH PRA investigator Boyle who seems to have been at scene at the same time with the army folks. More imporantly, he reportedly took samples from the ground where some witnesses claim the supposed object landed and also taped a number of statements from the witnesses. Have the results of the sample studies (if any) or the transcripts from the tapes (again if any) been made available somewhere?
The dog, the dog, he's at it again!
Banned
No further evidence of the girls other than testimony... however, when I said this is classic, I mean the way the Military zoomed into the area, denied what the witnesses saw and told them not to mention it. We have cases similar to this spanning decades.
Banned
you were hinting that this was just a fantastic collection of stories. I'd like to think that the girls disappearance was also known not only to the school children, but I'd like to think the teachers where aware of her existence as well... it would be worrying if she was not.
But then... many of the teachers either flat out refused to believe what the children saw, or the science teacher involved, was too afraid of ridicule, in which case, that seems to be the case since he did not want his testimony to go on record.
Banned
If you watch the third part of the doc. There was in the space of four days previous to the event of westall school, a photograph taken of UFO fitting the description of the one since seen at the school, and also a close encounter by a man driving in his car.
interesting.
Established Member
Where can I read these testimonies concerning the vanished girl? Note that I don't watch videos presented by the way of evidence because of technological limitations.
The dog, the dog, he's at it again!
Banned
It shows you a picture of the UFO as well... you could stare at it for hours.
Banned
I don't know if there is any written testimony. Only one surviving document exists on the westall case and its in a library under careful conditions. I say one document, but I bet its rather a collection of different documents.
Banned
I will certainly see if I can find any continued reading on the internet however.
Established Member
No, I didn't attend that school, but I can actually recall the news, and since then I've done quite a lot of ufo investigation, including into that incident. And it is most certainly not one I'd call 'convincing' of anything out of the ordinary. If anything, all it shows is how a story can be beaten up by those who want to sell papers and books or make a name for themselves, and how folks just *love* to jump on the bandwagon.
But let's be specific - you said I am "bound not to believe this".
Not to believe *what*, precisely? That some folks saw something they didn't recognise? I believe that, and if that is what you believe then we are in total agreement.
But I get the impression that's not what you are claiming.. is it? So be specific, please - what are you suggesting 'this' is?
And do you now concede that you have no actual evidence, just hearsay? No photos, no police reports? And that you believe the reason that evidence doesn't exist is because the MIB took it all away? And do you now withdraw your claim that someone went missing? If not, can you explain why it was not reported (even by the tabloid press) at the time?
Banned
Here's news papers and a mention of the girl who was taken away:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread569288/pg3
Banned
I don't trust your investigative techniques until you can back up your claim it was all chinese whispers.
Order of Kilopi
From a YouTube clip where the comments were a plea to buy the DVD and the first segments were from the Sci-Fi channel.
I'm interested in it. It was a daylight sighting with a lot of people involved. I'm not interested in all the sensationalist stuff that amounts to a marketing pitch.
Where is the list of facts without all the speculation and dramatic music?
Where are your links to the newspaper archives of the original incident reports? Or even a list of timestamps to the relevant bits? 40 year old memories are not references. Recordings made of witness testimony at the time of the incident is much better, but still not infallible.
In the initial investigation, were the witnesses interviewed as individuals, or as a group?
If they were interviewed as individuals, how much time they have to talk amongst themselves before their interview?
Anytime witness can discuss something their stories will fill gaps and alter the stories of the rest. Any testimony taken after that fact WILL be tainted to some degree. It might not be much, and it might not change things, but if Bob and Jill compare notes, Bob's story will change. That's basic suggestibility, and it's been well known for decades. It's even been used in fiction as a plot device.
All it would take is one person in that group to say, "Did anyone else see the windows?" to suddenly get a number of people to "remember" seeing windows.
Whenever I'm involved in anything that is likely to end up in an official report, I write it all down as soon as possible and before I have a chance to discuss it with anyone, if possible. I don't want my head any more chanced to fill in gaps than absolutely necessary.
I'm Not Evil.
An evil person would do the things that pop into my head.
Banned
I really do believe all the vital information on the girl and photographic evidence has been suppressed... by intimidation of the witnesses, to the loss of photographic evidence in the archives. The closest thing I think that could come to photographic evidence of this craft, comes from the photograph taken 4 days earlier.
Banned
you are missing the point. None of the witnesses in this video have profited! They've been ridiculed since day one!
Use your brain please! Sure someone might profit from a video on youtube, but this was a real documentation long before it was posted there\!
Established Member
According to "Shane" who supposedly was involved in making a documentary about the Westfall incident, the missing girl "Tanya" is not in fact missing. Case closed on that perchance.
@chrlzs
Can you provide any insight into what was published of the case at the time of the actual occurence - do you have newspaper clippings or the like on file for example?
The dog, the dog, he's at it again!
Order of Kilopi
Ridiculed perhaps, but in public. Being noticed is a strong motivator.
Plus, you're missing at least part of the point of the argument here, No one's saying the witnesses didn't see anything, we're saying they misidentified what they saw, which has a strong influence on what they remember seeing. This is a well-known and well documented source of error in such testimony.
You're mistaking who has the burden of proof here.
It's up to you to show that the reports are of the original eyewitness testimony, with no repeats and no discussion before making the statements.
If you can't do that, it's up to you to show why the testimony isn't tainted in view of well-known and well documented sources of error in such testimony..
__________________________________________________
Reductionist and proud of it.
Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn. Benjamin Franklin
Chase after the truth like all hell and you'll free yourself, even though you never touch its coat tails. Clarence Darrow
A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read. Mark Twain
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