Is a police presence bad for business?

[Tog]

I'm debating this with with people at work. We are starting to get more of a certain clientele that I think we'd be far better off without. I think it would be worth the money to hire an off duty police officer to loiter in the lobby, in uniform, to make these people aware that we don't want them around.

The concern from others is that the sight of a uniformed police officer in the lobby will make people think we've got problems with crime, which will put them off and cause business (the kind we want) to drop.

What say you?

[HenrikOlsen]

Are off-duty cops actually allowed to use their uniform for other work?

[Tog]

As far as I know they are. I'll ask the local Sgt next time I see him. He does a few shifts a month at the hospital and he's in uniform then. He also works at jewelry store now and then, but I'm not sure how he dresses for that.

[HenrikOlsen]

I ask because something about the idea feels wrong, but I'll freely allow that it's likely a cultural difference.

I'm fairly certain that it would be illegal in Denmark

[publius]

Well, basically, here a law enforcement officer is an officer of the law 24 hours a day. On duty vs off duty is a minor distinction at that level. Indeed, in certain cases, in their capacity as a LEO, they may be required to act if something serious is afoot, but that varies, and in all cases, the agency has rules about these things. Some might prohibit things others allow, etc.

[geonuc]

In answer to the OP's question, I'd say it would make me feel better. If your establishment is in an area where I might be nervous about crime, I probably sensed that before walking in. The sight of a police officer in the lobby would be welcome.

[Swift]

I don't think it would matter to me, though now that I think about it, I don't recall ever seeing a uniformed cop in a hotel lobby, so it might seem a little strange to me.

You could always do what donut shops did, which is completely true (cops hanging out in donut shops). At least in the old days, very late at night / early in the morning (3 or 4 a.m.), donut shops were about the only places that were open, and because of that, would occasionally get robbed. A cheap security solution was to offer free coffee and donuts to cops. When I was an EMT in Providence, back in the 80s, the Duncan Donuts on College Hill often had either a City cop or a campus offficer from Brown, RISD, or J&W sitting in it.

By the way, EMTs didn't usually rate free donuts, but if we came in with one of the Brown cops after a call, we'd sometimes get to share in the rewards.

[Moose]

On the one hand, yes, having a cop around does suggest you have a problem with crime in your neighborhood or establishment (which you do), but it also indicates you're doing something proactive about it.

On the other hand, having some sort of security consultant(s), not in evidence but available to intervene quickly when needed, word will get around to your 'problem guests' if you can rack up some timely successes. Your legit guests don't necessarily need to know there's a problem if you can handle that problem quickly and effectively.

[Perikles]

Are off-duty cops actually allowed to use their uniform for other work?

Certainly not in the UK, for example.

[Ara Pacis]

As a temporary deterrent to cause a "certain clientele" to decide to patronize another establishment, it might work. But I would be put off by seeing the po-po in the lobby, but if I was already in the lobby I have probably already decided to stay there and it wouldn't make a difference... unless there was a tape outline or blood spatter all over the place.

[Solfe]

ECC does a lot of training for local law enforcement.

This creates a lot of comedy in the building where they take classes. One day I saw one police car, one officer holding a radar gun and 24 student grouped around him. It never occurred to me that radar guns require some sort of training, but now that I have seen it a few times it makes sense. Another day there were a dozen signs posted around the entrance of the building: "Training In Progress". Each sign was bigger than the last. When I opened the door and walked in, there was an officer in the full bomb disposal armor waiting to be introduced to the class. I am sure he made an impression on them, because he impressed the heck out of me.

I feel safer with them around, but I hate it when they use the gym. Every once and a while, I see a trainee come out of the gym in street clothes and backpack with a Sam Browne slung over the top of the backpack, a pistol in the holster. I wouldn't carry a gun like that, it just doesn't look safe.

The EMT's cause their own brand of comedy. My chem class is across the hall from the EMT training rooms. Several times we have had class disrupted because we see someone (a dummy) being carried out on backboard or gurney. Other times the CPR training spills out into the hall. Last semester one of the teachers had a stroke during a first responder class. Obviously he recovered, he taught them well.

[John Mendenhall]

On the one hand, yes, having a cop around does suggest you have a problem with crime in your neighborhood or establishment (which you do), but it also indicates you're doing something proactive about it.

On the other hand, having some sort of security consultant(s), not in evidence but available to intervene quickly when needed, word will get around to your 'problem guests' if you can rack up some timely successes. Your legit guests don't necessarily need to know there's a problem if you can handle that problem quickly and effectively.

Try Moose's suggestion first. If that doesn't work, go with the uniform. Also, if you are having the problem I think you are, visit your local train station and/or bus terminal to see how they handle things, and talk to their staff. You'll hear some horror stories.

As an aside, hiring an off duty real police officer is very expensive. That's why we see so many security guards.

Good luck, John M.

[swampyankee]

Are off-duty cops actually allowed to use their uniform for other work?

In the part of the US where I live, the answer is complex, but essentially "no": a uniformed police officer is on-duty, by definition. This doesn't mean that uniformed police are necessarily working their normal shift, in that they may be working off shift, in providing traffic control at a construction site or security at a tennis tournament. In these cases, their police department is being paid for the police officer's time, and the officer is getting paid overtime by the police department. The department would have to approve the off-shift job, and state laws would limit where this could be done.

In Connecticut, some events must have police present, which would include things like large athletic events, like the Yale-Harvard Game. The PD (or PDs, iirc The Game has West Haven, New Haven, Yale¹, and State of Connecticut police). The sponsoring organization pays the involved police departments for the officers' time.


---------------

1: Yale has its very own, quite professional, real live police force. They carry guns and have full arrest authority in both New Haven, where most of the academic buildings and all the residence colleges are located, and West Haven, where the athletic fields and some research facilities are located. I don't know whether Yale police have authority on Yale's forest in northern Connecticut, and expect that they have no authority in the Yale forests in Vermont, and New Hampshire.

[Cougar]

Are off-duty cops actually allowed to use their uniform for other work?

I seriously doubt it. While in uniform, a cop would be assumed to be acting in his/her capacity as a police officer, not as a hotel security officer. When a police officer violates someone's constitutional rights (happens a lot in the Wild West!), then their employer city or county is liable. If a hotel security person wrongfully causes injury, or whatever, the employer hotel would likely be liable (certainly not the city).

I think a hotel security dude would be your only choice. But if he's hanging out in the lobby, my bet is it's too late to deter anyone who has already come into the hotel to check in. I think a sign out front warning that you routinely have a drug-sniffing dog make the rounds might be more effective (assuming that's the clientele you want to discourage).

[John Mendenhall]

Northern Utah !!?? Maybe check out a truck stop, also.

[Gillianren]

1: Yale has its very own, quite professional, real live police force. They carry guns and have full arrest authority in both New Haven, where most of the academic buildings and all the residence colleges are located, and West Haven, where the athletic fields and some research facilities are located. I don't know whether Yale police have authority on Yale's forest in northern Connecticut, and expect that they have no authority in the Yale forests in Vermont, and New Hampshire.

The police at The Evergreen State College are required to go through the Olympia police academy. I don't know if they have guns or not (I didn't ask), but they're real police who just happen to have a very cushy job. Mostly, they are required to roust sleeping people out of buildings and serve as the ultimate deterrent to noisy freshmen. Evergreen isn't exactly in a high-crime area, being in the middle of the woods and all. I felt vaguely guilty the time it looked like we had presented them with a real crime while on a simple walk to the beach. Did you know that skeletonized seal flippers look like human hands?

[jrkeller]

In the small town I live in, the police visit local businesses all the time, so a policeman in the lobby would not concern me.

[Swift]

The police at The Evergreen State College are required to go through the Olympia police academy. I don't know if they have guns or not (I didn't ask), but they're real police who just happen to have a very cushy job.

To the best of my knowledge, this is true of many (most) Universities with their own campus police. Whether they carry weapons or not is up to the school, but they tend to be real police officers, not security guards (some schools also have both). At Brown, at least when I was there, campus police went through the State Police Academy.

[swampyankee]

To the best of my knowledge, this is true of many (most) Universities with their own campus police. Whether they carry weapons or not is up to the school, but they tend to be real police officers, not security guards (some schools also have both). At Brown, at least when I was there, campus police went through the State Police Academy.

I know that Yale's police get full-blown municipal police training; I don't know whether it's through the State Police Academy or the New Haven Police Academy. Yale also has a separate security force, which is not armed. Some schools, especially those in less urban areas (to a great extent, Yale's campus is downtown New Haven) have, largely, eschewed guns, mostly because of training and liability issues, but events like the Virginia Tech mass murder has probably made some schools rethink that.

[mike alexander]

If the person was carrying a gun I would go elsewhere. I am uncomfortable in the presence of firearms as a rule.

[R.A.F.]

I'm debating this with with people at work.

May I ask what the nature of the "work" is??

Hotel?...restaurant?...disco dance hall?

[Jim]

I'd go with Moose's suggestion, with a tweak.

Hire an off-duty cop and ask him/her to work the hotel in civies. This gets the benefit of the police training, on-site security, and the cop can threaten/make arrests if necessary, all without looking too "policey" and scaring off the guests.

BTW, in Texas, off-duty cops can wear their uniforms for security and crowd/traffic control jobs. They do need permission to work such a job.

[R.A.F.]

DOH! It's right there in the profile...Night auditor in a hotel.


Should have investigated before posting.


Does the hotel have a restaurant or bar associated with it?...or is it stand alone?


edit to add....Double DOH...it's in the title of the poll at the top of the page...DOH.

[Cougar]

...Yale has its very own, quite professional, real live police force. They carry guns and have full arrest authority...

A remarkable number of Wild West residents have concealed carry permits and own multiple guns.

[R.A.F.]

A remarkable number of Wild West residents have concealed carry permits and own multiple guns.

Not feeling any "safer" knowing that...

[Tog]

Hmm, it's going differently than I expected. Thanks for the replies.

It's a hotel. No restaurant, no bar. Basically the same type as a Holiday Inn Express. The area is not bad at all, and that's part of the problem. Because the area isn't a bad one, police resources are diverted to other areas where something is more likely to happen.

One of the graveyard supervisors from the local PD stops in quite often. When he does, I have people who will ask why he's there. I tell them he comes in when he's bored, which is true. He also knows that I have good instincts when it comes to people he might have a professional interest in, so I'll point him to a car or name that I think has been acting oddly. Usually it's something minor.

Other times, he'll find something in the parking lot and come in to ask me about a specific car. We found a group running an ID theft/check cashing racket that way.

That's the other problem. Most of what's happening is drug use, not sales. Everything that goes on is behind closed doors, except for the constant traffic to the room. I was thinking the cop in the lobby would be more like a scarecrow than taking an active role. Security guards are fine for when the problem is open enough to deal with. I want to stop the problem from starting.

The people involved are usually locals. Within five miles or so. When they see the cop in the lobby, they "go out to talk it over with the (whoever is in the car)," then they drive off. I want more of that. A security guard wouldn't cause that reaction because the people know that as long as they aren't loud, there's nothing he can do. The cop can run their plate or check their name for warrants. They can also stop a person who is doing something suspicious and ask for ID.

I have one of these rooms here now. I know the person who rented the room has nothing outstanding, but in the last 90 minutes, 6 or 8 different people have gone up to his room. Two, I can't tie to the room directly. Last night there were a total of 5, 3 are also here tonight. One of the ones last night came down at 3 AM and met two others in the women's bathroom, but those two left 5 minutes later.

Utah closes at sundown. There's no reason to get a visitor at 3 AM. On a normal night, I might see one person come down to get coffee or a cookie.

As for the gun, yes, the cops I've seen doing security work are in full uniform. That includes their handgun, mace, and Taser.

The way the poll is going, it looks like I was wrong about how accepting people would be about a cop in the lobby. I was hoping to use it in the talk with the owner.

[Tog]

A remarkable number of Wild West residents have concealed carry permits and own multiple guns.

We're like Texas in that respect, only not as vocal about it.

I'm actually more concerned with getting shot by an idiot trying to clean his gun than I am some random CCW holder getting me.

The one time I know of a gun being used near the hotel, the gun holder was the victim and brandished it to stop an attack on himself and his girlfriend. The same time I was on the phone to 911 to report the guy with a gun, he was on the phone with 911 to report the guys that came after him with knives.

Of course, that didn't make the news.

[geonuc]

I know if I were a guest in your hotel and heard that sort of activity in a neighboring room, I'd find another hotel for the next night or next trip to the area. If a police presence in the lobby puts a stop to it, you're better off. For a hotel guest, there's not much worse than having a disturbance in adjoining rooms when you're trying to sleep. And people merely coming and going at 3 AM is a disturbance.

[HenrikOlsen]

The way the poll is going, it looks like I was wrong about how accepting people would be about a cop in the lobby. I was hoping to use it in the talk with the owner.

Remember though that you're polling a different segment of the world that you'd normally see in the lobby.
I deliberately didn't vote because I know I'm from a rather different culture that the one the question is being asked about, so my opinion is not relevant for the purpose of the poll but I don't know how many others made that choice.

[Tog]

I know if I were a guest in your hotel and heard that sort of activity in a neighboring room, I'd find another hotel for the next night or next trip to the area. If a police presence in the lobby puts a stop to it, you're better off. For a hotel guest, there's not much worse than having a disturbance in adjoining rooms when you're trying to sleep. And people merely coming and going at 3 AM is a disturbance.

That's what I've been trying to tell the owner. What's more, We get a lot of reservations from online services. Those allow people to post reviews. One bad review can make a big ripple in the pond.

For the people I want to keep out, they also do reviews, but they tend to be word of mouth type. When they find a place that lets them do their thing, more come. I don't think any hotel started out with the goal to attract that type of person.

Remember though that you're polling a different segment of the world that you'd normally see in the lobby.
I deliberately didn't vote because I know I'm from a rather different culture that the one the question is being asked about, so my opinion is not relevant for the purpose of the poll but I don't know how many others made that choice.

It's still valuable. We actually do a lot more business from Europe than I would have thought. There have been nights where we've had more countries represented than states.