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Thread: Man trying to reduce the strength of hurricane Ivan

  1. #1
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    Man trying to reduce the strength of hurricane Ivan

    ok I am by no means a smart person, and I DO apologize for not getting the actual link to this article, but it really seems like a bad Idea

    Fla. Man May Try To Reduce Ivan's Strength
    Cordani Wants To Dump Absorbent Material From 747

    POSTED: 4:14 pm EDT September 10, 2004
    UPDATED: 4:18 pm EDT September 10, 2004

    JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- A South Florida businessman says he's going to try to reduce the strength of Hurricane Ivan by flying a Boeing 747 into the edge of the hurricane and dumping thousands of pounds of an absorbent material into the storm.

    Peter Cordani of Jupiter plans to try to knock the storm down by one or two categories by dropping tons of powder that absorbs 3,000 to 4,000 times its weight.


    Cordani is chief operating officer of Dyn-O-Mat, a company that sells environmental absorbent products such as mats for mechanics. He believes his product, SK 1,000, would cause a shearing action and a 15 degree cooling of the storm. ,p/>

    Cordani has been working on his plan for five years.

    He has assembled a team of experts, including two former astronauts, moonwalker Edgar Mitchell and Scott Mac Leod, who tested the lunar module.

    Cordani is in contact talks to lease a 747 tanker from Evergreen Aviation in McMinnville, Oregon
    Now, my question is, what are the ramifications of the energy conversion. if the hurricane actually COOLS Ivan, what happens with the heat exchange?

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    Re: Man trying to reduce the strength of hurricane Ivan

    Quote Originally Posted by skrap1r0n
    Now, my question is, what are the ramifications of the energy conversion. if the hurricane actually COOLS Ivan, what happens with the heat exchange?
    I am going with a really bad idea here. I do not see a sudden violent drop of temp being good. If the water cools isn't it going to infuse a ton of cooled and very moist air immediately back into the air? Kind of right into the Storm?

    I wouldn't want to be around when this goes down. Especially not in a metal plane with fuel on it. Why hasn't this been tested in a lab? And would the government be over-stepping their bounds if they didn't let this happen without some testing to make sure he isn't going to kick off some crazy reaction?

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    Thats what I am thinking. IIRCC, the energy in a cat 5 hurricane is equivilent to X amount of hiroshima a-bombs, a cat 4 hurricane is X-y a bombs. reducing the cat by artificial means will be the equivilent of setting off that difference in A-bombs.

    Am i wrong?

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    Where are Metora or CWXman when you need them?

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    I'm wondering if that material is biodegradable...

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    Dunno, but this definitley bears watching. I'm gonna bet it doesn't work but damn if it does and theres a rapid reduction, theres gonna be hella energy released.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skrap1r0n
    Thats what I am thinking. IIRCC, the energy in a cat 5 hurricane is equivilent to X amount of hiroshima a-bombs, a cat 4 hurricane is X-y a bombs. reducing the cat by artificial means will be the equivilent of setting off that difference in A-bombs.

    Am i wrong?
    Well sort of. A bomb is not a hurricane. The energy is there, but not released in the same way. :wink:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kidd
    I'm wondering if that material is biodegradable...
    (Said tongue-in-cheek and very hypothetically) - Another idea: Manufacture 100 large floating 10 mile diameter, 100 foot high slabs of Pykrete. Tow them into the path of the tropical storm as it is developing. Let them float around in there, almost submerged. Even if they collide, they won't break as Pykrete is incredibly strong material. It takes forever to melt and floating mostly submerged, lowers water temperature. It is also biodegradable. It will last for years.*

    *Yes, I know its nutty. :wink:

  9. #9
    When they drop it in the ocean it'll reduce the sea level.

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    Peter Cordani of Jupiter plans to try to knock the storm down by one or two categories by dropping tons of powder that absorbs 3,000 to 4,000 times its weight.
    **Bolding mine**

    Unless Jupiter is a place im not so sure that this isnt some kind of joke, That just kind of jumped out at me when i read through it.[/quote]

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Worm hunter
    Unless Jupiter is a place im not so sure that this isnt some kind of joke, That just kind of jumped out at me when i read through it.
    Yes. There is a city named Jupiter here in Florida.

    Anyways, I don't think that will work. How many of this "absorbent material" can a plane carry? Have this guy ever looked at the size of a hurricane in the map? Sound to me like a mosquito trying to reduce the speed of a truck by flapping its wings in front of it…

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    Thanks for the reply Tha_Pig, that would of bugged me for days.

    Anywho i wonder what this absorbant material is supposedly going to absorb. It cant be heat since its says in the op quote it absorbs weight so what is it???

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    I agree. I think it is important to consider the scale of things when looking at ideas like this. The Hurricane is huge and is driven by heat energy. Energy is energy, so even if it is not in a burst like a bomb, it still would take a considerable protion of the storm's energy being removed to have any effect. Looking on the weather map, it is unlikely a 747 full of anything - including nuclear bombs - would be able to remove even a tiny fraction of the storm's energy when the thing is the size of Texas.

    It would be like trying to alter the path of a bowling ball with a pea shooter. Even if you blow REALLY HARD, it won't have much effect.

    If the guy wants to try it, why not. Good luck getting some company to put their multi million dollar plane at risk flying around in the storm.

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    Wouldn't a military cargo plane make more sense? i mean their designed to carry some really heavy stuff and are also made to take some heat during combat, a 747 is built to transport people and some bags not fly through enemy fire or hurricanes.

    Peter Cordani of Jupiter plans to try to knock the storm down by one or two categories by dropping tons of powder that absorbs 3,000 to 4,000 times its weight.
    okay so let me get this straight 1 gram of this powder would go in and be crushed by the storm and end up being a powder that weighs 3000-4000 grams. So 1 gram would come out at about 6 1/2 to 9 lbs, tank shells weigh about 11 lbs with gun powder... wouldn't it be like raining morta shells down on anywhere as soon as the hurricain lost enough energy to hold onto this powder?

  15. #15
    I remember reading in Popular Science a few years ago about a plan to stop hurricanes by intentionally creating oil spills in their path. The spill wouldn't have to be very thick, just a thin layer of oil on the surface of the water would supposedly change the temperature of the water and prevent the storms from forming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarOrbit
    I remember reading in Popular Science a few years ago about a plan to stop hurricanes by intentionally creating oil spills in their path. The spill wouldn't have to be very thick, just a thin layer of oil on the surface of the water would supposedly change the temperature of the water and prevent the storms from forming.
    It's true! Were there any hurricanes in the Gulf of Alaska after the Exxon Valdes grounding? Huh? Were there?

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    So has this guy tried this yet? Is he even going to?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by LunarOrbit
    I remember reading in Popular Science a few years ago about a plan to stop hurricanes by intentionally creating oil spills in their path. The spill wouldn't have to be very thick, just a thin layer of oil on the surface of the water would supposedly change the temperature of the water and prevent the storms from forming.
    Thats a hell of alot more plausible than this guys idea. Plus i can bet its alot better for the environment. I mean if im guessing right its the same stuff they put in diapers and those "do not eat" packets. Whats going to happen if you have thousands of these things floting around our oacean being eaten by every living thing in it? Bad, bad idea.

    He has to overcome two rpoblems here:
    1. getting the granuels inside the storm without them being blown away in the first place. This could be solved by flying directly into the storm.
    32. covering a wide enought area so that the entirety of the hurricane is covered in the stuff and lowered in energy so that it cannot support the high winds. Thats alot of area to cover.

    A small storm like charlie was, it might even be possible. But this guy is prety damn big.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey
    He has to overcome two rpoblems here:
    1. getting the granuels inside the storm without them being blown away in the first place. This could be solved by flying directly into the storm.
    32. covering a wide enought area so that the entirety of the hurricane is covered in the stuff and lowered in energy so that it cannot support the high winds. Thats alot of area to cover.
    What happened to problems 2 to 31? They end up being solved?


    (Sorry, I was forced to come into work today and it looks like I'll be here tomorrow too so my humors a bit rough at the moment. )

  20. #20
    Numbers 2-31 have been classified by the Legion of Doom.

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    Re: Man trying to reduce the strength of hurricane Ivan

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey
    Quote Originally Posted by LunarOrbit
    I remember reading in Popular Science a few years ago about a plan to stop hurricanes by intentionally creating oil spills in their path. The spill wouldn't have to be very thick, just a thin layer of oil on the surface of the water would supposedly change the temperature of the water and prevent the storms from forming.
    Thats a hell of alot more plausible than this guys idea. Plus i can bet its alot better for the environment. I mean if im guessing right its the same stuff they put in diapers...[edit]
    So they're going to fling fertilizer at Ivan? Poor guy...that stuff found in diapers is one of the most potent materials on Earth, or probably anywhere else. When you have kids, Humphrey, you'll find out! 8)

  22. #22
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    This guy sounds like he is only trying to hype his company. Since it probably won’t happen, he has very little to loose but can gain some exposure for this absorbent product and public goodwill for his company. Never underestimate the power of free publicity.

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    Let's try a quick calculation:
    Suppose he drops 10 tons, absorbing thus 20,000 tons of water.
    The central regions of the Hurricane have the potential to drop, say, 20cm (8 inches) of rain on an area several dozen kilometers in diameter.
    1 square kilometer of 20cm of rain weighs 1000mx1000mx0.2m = 200,000 tons. If the dropped powder is spread by the convective motion of the storm over an area of 100 kmx100km, this spells removing 20,000 tons of water out of 2,000,000,000 tons, or roughly a thousandth of a percent.
    That is a minor fluctuation Ivan will not react to [-X , barely better than trying to deflect it with mental, telekinetic "energy".
    If, on the other hand, the powder stays concentrated over a small area, there will be a sudden, locally confined area of different pressure and humidity, probably lower pressure - an area, into which air and moisture rushes violently. And alas, thanks for creating that tornado #-o

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dgennero
    #-o
    What he said.

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    That's actually Old News--he's been working on this theory for a while. That article in the OP makes it seem like he just up and decided to charter a plane, possibly for advertising purposes--not so.

    From September 1:

    Inventors think they could reduce storm havoc
    By Paul Lomartire

    Palm Beach Post Staff Writer

    Wednesday, September 01, 2004

    < snip >

    For three years, the Jupiter businessman and inventor has been trying to get hurricane experts to consider his super-absorbant product, SK-1000, which can be dumped into a hurricane to weaken it before landfall. "It will suck the moisture out of the storm and cool the storm down 15 degrees within seconds," says Cordani. "That will reduce the devastating punch. If you reduce a storm by 8 to 15 mph you can reduce 60 percent of its damage."

    [Dr. Peter Ray, a Florida State University professor of meteorology] says no one can know if Cordani's idea could work until it's tested. "My goal is to do good science, not to promote this," says Ray, a Doppler radar pioneer. "But the questions can be answered using the best science available at a level done with integrity and honest scrutiny."

    As for getting government hurricane experts to embrace Cordani's idea, that's naive, says Ray, who earned his doctorate at National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's National Severe Storms Laboratory in Norman, Oklahoma. "You're dealing with government agencies," he says. "Unless it was born in NOAA, it would not happen, them embracing it." But, he adds, if NOAA was given a big chunk of research money by the Congress to investigate Cordani's idea, the tests would begin immediately.

    < snip >

    Insurance companies were the first to listen to Cordani's patented SK-1000 process to modify weather. But hurricane experts discounted his plan. For starters, they said, no airplane was big enough to carry enough of the stuff to affect a storm, even if SK-1000 did what Cordani said it would.

    < snip >

    While he worked on concentrating SK-1000, Dutton, Dyn-O-Mat's president, looked for an airplane maker to design something that could haul and drop it into a hurricane. Cordani has now improved SK-1000 from absorbing 250 times its weight to 2,000 to 3,000 times its weight, so a plane would have to haul a lot less of it to affect a storm.

    And Dutton got the plane built. "We finally have the big aircraft in position," he says, but he can't announce the company until the final contracts are done. The 747-sized plane will carry a 200,000-pound payload.

    Buddies going all the way back to Happauge High School in Smithtown, Long Island, Cordani and Dutton quickly learned a simple fact: You can't tell certified science guys anything if you don't have a bunch of college degrees. "The key is to work with the government to bring in the dollars, the insurance conglomerate and the researchers," Dutton said.

    < snip >

    He did get NOAA to test his first version of SK-1000 using hurricane computer models, and it slowed the storm by 4 to 6 mph. With the improved SK-1000, he says, "we have a shot at 15 mph now.
    They sound serious, but I can't help enjoying the teensy hints of the classic woowoo, "They laughed at Galileo, too!"

    His webpage discussing this.
    http://www.dynomat.com/storm.shtml

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigsaw
    Buddies going all the way back to Happauge High School in Smithtown, Long Island, Cordani and Dutton quickly learned a simple fact: You can't tell certified science guys anything if you don't have a bunch of college degrees. "The key is to work with the government to bring in the dollars, the insurance conglomerate and the researchers," Dutton said.
    This part of the article i really don't like. This is Big time Woo-Woo thinking.
    "They dopn't listen to me because i don't have a doctorate, its not because my idea is realtively impossible to do and that they should not waste their time on something like this."

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    Yeah, maybe it is a bit woowoo, but hey, he's made the mainstream media.

    He might actually get some funding, who knows. At least it's a better idea than nuking it.

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    The trouble is, a hurricane is so darn BIG that there is nothing that humanity can do in the short run to affect it. We can affect the size and number of them over the long term with global warming and cooling, but nobody's sure which way we have to go .

    The only way to deal with a hurricane is to go where it ain't.


    Fred
    "For shame, gentlemen, pack your evidence a little better against another time."
    -- John Dryden, "The Vindication of The Duke of Guise" 1684

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    I had had the thought that reducing the surface temp of the ocean in the path of a hurricane would be more effective and safer. I was inspired by forest fire fighting methods in which a backfire is set to deprive the wildfire of fuel.

    One would have to seed the sea with liquid oxygen. My thought is to trail hoses from large LOX tankers, the hoses being at a depth of 10 meters below the surface. Perhaps it could cool the water enough to at least prevent a CAT 4 from becoming a CAT 5 storm. I don't know how to do the calcs, I'd have to brush up on specifac heat and all that. I also have no idea what LOX costs. If such a plan would cost $2 billion for each storm then leaving the storm alone may be cheaper.
    I have an almost comical vision of large sheets of ice floating in the Gulf of Mexico.

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    They laughed at Galileo. And they laughed at Carrot Top. Maybe if we gave Carrot Top a telescope instead of a telephone...

    Nah.

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