Universe the Cosmology Quest

[AZgazer]

Has anyone else seen this and what were your thoughts?

I was left with was a desire to know more about the Plasma Universe theory, mainly to understand it better. That is a problem as it is the theory presented as being correct.

I was annoyed with the amount of effort they put into discrediting the BB. I felt that the time would have been much better spent putting forth their point.

Anyways, I was glad we (C-U Astronomical Society) decided to view it. We had planned on having one of the U of I's Cosmologists preview it and present a counter view point, but we received the DVD this morning.


Here is a list of some of the people who appeared; Sir Fred Hoyle, Halton Arp, Jayant Narlikar, Jack Sulentic, Geoffrey and Margaret Burbidge, John Dobson, Jean-Claude Pecker, Anthony Peratt and Eric Lerner. Here is the supporting site if anyone is intersted. (I haven't visisted the site yet myself.)

[AZgazer]

OK, I just cruised the site for a second. I am not sure if those QT vids are full length or not, the 2 parts were about an hour each, so NB users beware. (My connection is HORRENDOUS atm. I am fluxing between 100-150kbs when I am normally almost 3megs! )

[gritmonger]

Halton Arp quote "About" the movie:

Most astronomical theory is arrived at in personal meetings between members of an influential elite.

That his statement just about the movie includes a logical fallacy to supposedly support his point is somewhat telling.

And Kerry Mullis is trotted out as "Nobel Laureate." Without reference to what got him that Nobel, or what would qualify him as an expert in physics much less cosmology, and immediately accuses cosmologists of treating "The Big Bang" as a "religion." Ad hominem, plus argument from authority; a two-fer!

So far this is not looking good for unbiased fact-finding and presentation of theory and evidence. Especially considering Arp's first presentation of his theory is supported by PhotoShop manipulation of a Hubble photo from a news article.

[Tobin Dax]

AZ, I gotta ask: who were you going to have preview the video?

[AZgazer]

I was not involved with the arrangements on that end. One of our Officers runs Starkel and either him or another member who is employed at the U was going to make those arrangements. Wish I had a better answer, unfortunately I am not sure.

We were expecting the DVD some time ago and were anticipating having it previewed, then after the Club viewing, a counter presentation. We didn't get the DVD until this morning.

Our plan is still to have it viewed by one of the Cosmologists if possible and then have a presentation at the next meeting. We also tossed out the idea of having the UIAS view it while we have it, nothing firm on that idea though.

[Cougar]

And Kerry Mullis is trotted out as "Nobel Laureate." Without reference to what got him that Nobel...

Right. Mullis seems to be a "Nobelist for hire". Wasn't he scheduled to appear as a defense witness in the O.J. Simpson trial? :roll:

[Cougar]

"A film by Randall Meyers"??

A quote from Meyers' biography on the web....

He has recorded several CDs, and is Artistic Director of Solaris Records, as well as producer for Floating World Films AS -- a film company concentrating on the development and production of musical and fantasy related film projects.

"Fantasy related film projects." That sounds about right.

[AZgazer]

LoL, well it seems no one else has viewed this. Not surprising in the least. We were offered as a Club a DVD for viewing. Not wanting to offer the other side a chance we voted ot take a look. The impression I got from the round table post viewing is kinda the same sentiments expressed here. Guess I can chalk this one up to "Nothing ventured, nothing gained."

I did chuckle a little at John Dobson being used as an opinion head in the thoery dept. Unless I missed something, he has no scientific background, just a really nice mount design, right?

[Maksutov]

LoL, well it seems no one else has viewed this. Not surprising in the least. We were offered as a Club a DVD for viewing. Not wanting to offer the other side a chance we voted ot take a look. The impression I got from the round table post viewing is kinda the same sentiments expressed here. Guess I can chalk this one up to "Nothing ventured, nothing gained."

I did chuckle a little at John Dobson being used as an opinion head in the thoery dept. Unless I missed something, he has no scientific background, just a really nice mount design, right?

Here's some info on Dobson (from his homepage bio):

After completing a degree in Chemistry at the University of California at Berkeley in 1943, John took defense-related jobs which he held until he joined the Vedanta Monastery in San Francisco in 1944, becoming a monk of the Ramakrishna Order. He spent the next 23 years in the Monastery. When he joined the Order, known for its intellectual rigor and public service, he was given the assignment of reconcilling the teachings of religion with those of science.

Doesn't mention what kind of degree. A chemistry background might be useful for persons doing spectroscopic analysis.

However this information from quanta-gaia.org indicates we're dealing with some unusual viewpoints:

John Dobson's scientific musings are very thought provoking and, like Einstein's Relativity, require us to re-examine many of our long-held views. While many leading scientists accept the Big Band[sic] model without question, Dobson does not. After examining the theory, Dobson concluded it was fatally flawed and has been debunking the Big Bang ever since. He predicts that the Big Bang will fall out of favor within this decade. In place of the Big Bang, Dobson presents a Steady State model which more accurately describes observed cosmological phenomena. His model does not suffer the flaws of its Steady State predecessors which were popular before the Big Bang theories. The Dobson Steady State model is simple and elegant. It is simpler than the various Big Bang theories and if we apply the Law of Parsimony (aka Occam's Razor), the Dobson model clearly wins due to its greater simplicity.

Hence his recruitment by the DVD bunch.

Like many scientists, Dobson is not a materialist. He admits that our desire to view the world as made up of indestructible matter, tiny billiard balls at the subatomic level, is very strongly instilled in us. But he believes that it is a mistake, encouraged by our genetics, to view the world this way. In his view and words, the "Universe is apparitional." For those familiar with the television series Star Trek: The Next Generation, Dobson's view is that the Universe is similar to a holographic projection on the Holodeck. Objects and people on the Holodeck are seemingly made of solid matter, but that is only an illusion. It is important to note that Dobson himself does not make this Holodeck analogy; he watches very little television and is unfamiliar with the newer Star Trek series.

So when what the DVD is proposing descends into the murky realm of metaphysics, they've got someone on board who can use all the buzz words.

BTW, there appears to be some confusion as to how long his stay was in the monastery. One bio says 27 years, another 23 years. One other thing, a lot of folks, when they hear "monastery" think "Catholic". Nope. This is a Vendanta monastery:

Vedanta is one of the world's most ancient religious philosophies and one of its broadest. Based on the Vedas, the sacred scriptures of India, Vedanta affirms the oneness of existence, the divinity of the soul, and the harmony of religions. Vedanta is the philosophical foundation of Hinduism; but while Hinduism includes aspects of Indian culture, Vedanta is universal in its application and is equally relevant to all countries, all cultures, and all religious backgrounds.

Since Hinduism is involved here, it wouldn't be surprising if somewhere in the DVD materials astrology reared its ugly head. But you're right, Dobson designed one heck of a fine alt-azimuth mount out of found materials. 8)

PS: I've always been a proponent of the "Big Band". Glenn Miller, the Dorsey Bros., and especially Stan Kenton.

[AZgazer]

Nope, no Astrology in the Series. It was 2 hours long, mainly 90 minutes of tearing up the BB and then 10 minutes of "Our Credentials" and 10 minutes of "Plasma Universe" and another 10 minutes for credits.

The sad thing is the Plasma Theory seemed very intriguing and there were a lot of comments afterwards to that affect. IMO they did a very poor job of proposing their view point. Over the top amounts of "this is wrong" and not enough, "this is right." Probably a result of scarce evidence on their side.

My connection is fixed today and I looked at the QT vids and it looked like a small display full length version there, if anyone is bored on a Friday night. :P

[Cougar]

We were offered as a Club a DVD for viewing. Not wanting to offer the other side a chance we voted ot take a look. The impression I got from the round table post viewing is kinda the same sentiments expressed here. Guess I can chalk this one up to "Nothing ventured, nothing gained."

Absolutely. One shouldn't dismiss such a thing out of hand. Gotta take a look before forming a reasoned impression.

Haven't there been discussions about the "Plasma Universe" here on the board before? Is this the same as the "Electric Universe"? Sorry, but I skipped most of those discussions....

[gritmonger]

We were offered as a Club a DVD for viewing. Not wanting to offer the other side a chance we voted ot take a look. The impression I got from the round table post viewing is kinda the same sentiments expressed here. Guess I can chalk this one up to "Nothing ventured, nothing gained."

Absolutely. One shouldn't dismiss such a thing out of hand. Gotta take a look before forming a reasoned impression.

Well, a sampling from the two excerpts on the website were enough for me, thanks. Enough logical fallacies to convince me that any conclusions drawn from the early part of the show would only compound the errors at best. How long does it run? 90 minutes or so?

[AZgazer]

My accounting for their time allotment was not in jest, I bet if you had the stop watch going the break down would be really close to the times I listed in it's 2 hours.

I absolutely agree that you have to at least give it a fair chance before dismissing. I am sure the Plasma or maybe Electrical Universe? have been discussed here, I had only heard of it, never seen any support for it before so it was kind of intruiging. I am going to root around a bit when I get some spare time and see what I find. Hopefully from some people who care more about their work and less about bashing someone elses.

[Kesh]

Haven't there been discussions about the "Plasma Universe" here on the board before? Is this the same as the "Electric Universe"? Sorry, but I skipped most of those discussions....

Depends on who you ask. The EU theory requires plasma throughout the universe to act as a conduit for electrical energy, but I don't think the PU theory requires the electrical flow through the plasma.

[Tobin Dax]

My connection is fixed today and I looked at the QT vids and it looked like a small display full length version there, if anyone is bored on a Friday night. :P

*Now* you tell me.

[AZgazer]

Hey Tobin Dax you should come out to Allerton tomorrow night with us. It's supposed to be great weather and Allerton offers the best dark sky area around. I can get you more info if you're interested. We're going to have first light in the Club's just completed 16" F4.5 Dob tomorrow.

[Tobin Dax]

Ooh, that's tempting. Could you give me more info, please, and I see whether or not I can make it. Just PM me. Thanks.

[upriver]

Hannes Alfvén (1908-1995) The father of plasma physics.

http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/people/alfven.html