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Thread: Blue shifted Galaxies in Expanding universe:

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2004

    Blue shifted Galaxies in Expanding universe:

    Peculiar motions of Galaxies

    In Dynamic Universe Model Ė Galaxies in a cluster are rotating and revolving. Depending on the position of observerís position relative to the set of galaxies, some may appear to move away, and some may appear to come near. The observer may also be residing in a solar system, revolving around the center of Milky Way in a local group. He is observing the galaxies outside. Many times he can observe only the coming near or going away component of the light ray called Hubble components. The other direction cosines of the movement may not be possible to measure exactly in many cases. It is an immensely complicated problem to untangle the two and pin point the cause of nonĖHubble velocities. (See JV.Narlikar, (1983).) ĎNear by Galaxies Atlasí published by Tully and Fischer contains detailed maps and distribution of speeds of Galaxies in the relatively local region. The multi component model used by them uses the method of least squares. Hence we can say that Galactic velocities are possible in all the directions.

    So in this model both red shift and blue shift of galaxies are possible simultaneously in all directions and at all distances from us. That depends only on location of distant rotating and revolving cluster.

    We can visualize very easily, every galaxy will have many velocities super imposed on it. If the going away velocity component is more, it is Red Shifted; otherwise it will be Blue Shifted. These are called Peculiar motions of Galaxies

    Giant wheel analogy

    Letís start with an analogy. Imagine one person standing near a giant wheel in a childrenís park. When the wheel is rotating and the person is standing on the axis of wheel, he will see all the buckets moving and none come near or go away. When the person is standing in the plane of giant wheel rotation, he will see some buckets come near at the top and some go away at the bottom. All the other buckets will have some upward motion or downward motion, combined with either coming near or going away. Depending on the personís position relative to the plane of rotation, the overall effect of buckets going away or coming near will vary. It is peculiar motion of buckets in the plane. Peculiar motion can be in any direction in the three dimensional sphere from the center.

    Now, let us imagine 10 such giant wheels rotating about each other and such 6 sets of (10 giant wheels in each set, of course both 6 & 10 are arbitrary numbers) rotating giant wheels rotating about each other all in different planes. These giant wheels, can be rotating about each other, when there no huge central mass. No problem. All depends on their positions and instantaneous velocities. Imagine yourself in one bucket and observing a distant bucket in different giant wheel with a telescope. You can see only observed bucket going away or coming near. That observed giant wheel will have a bigger velocity component of going away super imposed on its coming near component of velocity in the observed motion of bucket. In a 3 dimensional space there are many directions. Very few can come near purely towards you (Blue-shift). All the others will have some component of going away (red-shift). This red-shift component is readily measured in the case of a Galaxy, which is having its own peculiar motion. Here one can visualize why Blue-shifted galaxies (or the buckets in our analogy without any outgoing velocity component) are less.

    Transparent Globe analogy

    Now lets assume a Transparent Globe instead of a rotating wheel, it is a rotating Globe surface. Letís say it is the surface of rotating transparent earth map globe, where all the country maps are printed on that surface. We can very easily visualize the countries approaching you will be less than 1/8 th of the total surface area. Others may not create an approaching scenario. Hence in such case maximum 1/8 th of the Galaxies will be approaching you.

    Now lets take the case of rotating transparent globe, where the mutually rotating galaxies are placed in side of globe anywhere. In such case we can very easily visualize, that it may be only 1/16 th of the total Galaxies will be blue shifted. Or it can be zero. That depends on the relative locations of the rotating galaxies and the distance between the center of cluster to centers of galaxies.

    Now after visualizing all the three above cases, we can say that, the number of blue shifted galaxies depends on the physical positions of the galaxies, and their total number in the cluster, and the relative position with respect to each other and with respect to us. Hence the number of blue shifted galaxies will depend on place to place. While fixing the Z values for the galaxies, our astronomers will do some grouping depending on neighboring galaxies. Here also some of the blue shifted galaxies may get some other fitment.

    The whole scenario will change if the observer himself is located in side of the rotating sphere. Then the movement of the local group with respect to him self will depend on his own perspective angle and position.

    Finally lets assume that, there are two transparent rotating spheres that have self-rotation and both are revolving with respect to each other. It is some thing like two clusters rotating and revolving with respect to each other. You are stationed in one of them, and in one galaxy. You try to observe the other one and count the number of galaxies approaching you. The blue shifted galaxies will always be less. But there will be some. It is because this involves a complex movement scenario.

    Dynamic universe Model simulations for Blue shifted Galaxies showing Orbit formations

    The universe assumed to be heterogeneous and anisotropic. This situation is clearly shown in the output pictures formed from this Model. These pictures show from the starting points to final stabilized orbits of masses involved. Advantage with Dynamic Universe Model is that it can operate on inhomogeneous and anisotropic starting conditions. Because of this dynamism, the universe does not collapse into a lump (due to Newtonian static forces). This Model depicts the three dimensional orbit formations of involved masses or celestial bodies like in our present universe. From the resulting graphs one can see the orbit formations of the point masses, which were positioned randomly at the start. An orbit formation means some Galaxies are coming near (Blue shifted) and some are going away (Red shifted).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Graph: G1: starting pictures of xy positions of Clusters (right) and Globular Clusters (left), x and y axes scales represent distances in meters. These masses are randomly on xyz axes. An orbit formation means some Galaxies are coming near (Blue shifted) and some are going away (Red shifted).

    Graph G8 represent the positions of all masses in this simulation, after seven time-steps. We can see the formation of some three-dimensional circles clearly. That means orbit formation.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by snp.gupta View Post

    In a 3 dimensional space there are many directions. Very few can come near purely towards you (Blue-shift). All the others will have some component of going away (red-shift).

    Very few? How is slightly less then 1/2 qualify as "Very few"? This is just assuming proper motions.

    If you are trying to explain red shift then why don't we measure and high blue shift galaxies? Even though slightly more galaxies would have proper motions that cause them to be red shifted one would expect some a significant amount of highly blue shifted galaxies yet we don't see this. Add to this that if you try to account for red shift simply via proper motion you have to explain how some galaxies have attained velocities a significant percentage of the speed of light.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Why dont we see any blueshifted galaxies? Andromeda is the only major galaxy that is blueshifted.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    snp.gupta, off hand, this looks to me like just a repeat of your earlier threads. What new claims, if any, are you making here?

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." ó Abraham Lincoln

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  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    The beautiful north coast (Ohio)
    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    snp.gupta, off hand, this looks to me like just a repeat of your earlier threads. What new claims, if any, are you making here?
    Let me make that official.

    snp.gupta, this thread is closed, as this looks like just a repeat of your several earlier threads. If you wish it to be reopened, you will Report this post and explain exactly what is different about it and why that is sufficiently changed to start a new thread.
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    snp.gupta has emailed a response to me, pleading difficulties in using BAUT to do so:

    I need your help again...

    I opened a thread on Blue shifted Galaxies.

    They closed the thread in few hours without giving me a chance to reply any single question and asked me "what is new? This is repeat of old thread."

    It is wrong accusation, I never opened any thread on " Blue shifted Galaxies" all my threads are on different subjects.

    This all happened three days back. Still thread was not re-opened, even after requesting.

    I am requesting you to please re-open the thread. I tried to send PM, but when ever I tried with address toseek, Baut forum site hanged. That's why I sending this mail to your other ID. My reply is the following.

    I am requesting you to please re-open the thread...
    Best regards
    What is new:
    A. First prediction (No other cosmological model predicted Blue shifted Galaxies earlier)
    In May 2004, I sent the paper predicting the existence of blue shifted Galaxies to a scientific journal and that paper was rejected. I totally forgot about that till recent times. That mail ID I used was lapsed. In 2009 Hubble space telescope found more than 7000 Blue shifted Galaxies compared to earlier 30 Blue shifted Galaxies known at the time of 1930’s. When I submitted another paper to the same journal few months back, the journal staff retrieved this 2004 paper for me. Now probably Dynamic Universe Model is the first to predict the existence of blue shifted Galaxies in the universe in 2004 itself.
    By giving the following command to NED (NASA/IPAC EXTRAGALACTIC DATABASE) by JPL anybody can get the exact number of Blue shifted Galaxies by Hubble space telescope to the present date & time. As on 4th April 2012 at 1210 hrs Indian time, it is 7306 Blue-shifted galaxies.

    Some current active research and discussions can be found at

    B. Whatever the examples I gave are from the earlier 2004 paper. In the last two months I did further research which revealed that the Galaxies are moving away from each other also for compensating the dynamical centrifugal forces. That show orbit formation as well as expansion. Blue and red shift together in the Universe. That’s why I gave the title
    “Blue shifted Galaxies in Expanding Universe”.
    This research contradicts the traditional Idea of space and matter are glued together and space pushes the matter to further distances. Hence this research is Against The Mainstream.
    I did not put that all data here in the first post. I thought that I will introduce the further Ideas in a step by step manner, after tackling the questions for the first post.

    I am not qualified to judge this so would appreciate input from those who are. Thanks.
    Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

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