View Poll Results: Do people ever deserve punishment.???

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Thread: Punishment.

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Beardsley View Post
    Seconded. I find this affectation extremely annoying, to the point that I will not be reading any more posts by anyone who practises it.
    I find this more interesting than the question although it is on topic because Paul wants to punish the multiple ! I suppose the innovation of emoticons must be just as annoying. Personally I can see the double ! or the double ? as having meaning in the same way as an emoticon. It just means the writer allocates degrees of exclamation as in Goal. Goal! GOAL! and so on. My example is flawed since I have not much interest in goals in the football sense. Sometimes the words can be lifted to an exclamation and the degree of passion felt might conceivably be justified by the boldness of !! which in text language does look like a very surprised cat. Should the writer be punished by not reading? We it would be easier if we put the exclamation at the beginning as they do in Spanish, upside down, to let you know.

  2. #62
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    Profloater, I think probably that if a person occasionally puts three exclamation points after a particularly important sentence, nobody would say anything. But you might notice, going back, that this particular writer puts three exclamations after almost every sentence.
    As above, so below

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Profloater, I think probably that if a person occasionally puts three exclamation points after a particularly important sentence, nobody would say anything. But you might notice, going back, that this particular writer puts three exclamations after almost every sentence.
    Well of course that is indefensible as a style issue and should be punished most severely by the removal of his shift key and shift lock key (capital punishment) please note no ex or Qu marks but I need the pun emoticon

  4. #64
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    OK, enough with the punctuation police comments!!!

    And P Timmy , for the sake of peace and the lining of my stomach, could you ease up on the !s
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  5. #65
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    Swift

    P Timmy , for the sake of peace and the lining of my stomach, could you ease up on the !s
    A 13 year old habit dies hard... but OK... :-)

    I plan to answer the new questions in this thread later today.

  6. #66
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    i read the first couple of posts, realized what was going on and where this thread was supposed to go, and decided to add that Hammurabi had it right.. let the punishment fit the crime- an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth..
    if you don't punish those that break the rules of society, then the whole fabric of society falls apart.
    this holds true for every different kind of society- from the family unit on up to organizations like the United Nations.

  7. #67
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    Punctuation transgressions should be resolved by taseful self-editing rather than punishment.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by novaderrik View Post
    i read the first couple of posts, realized what was going on and where this thread was supposed to go, and decided to add that Hammurabi had it right.. let the punishment fit the crime- an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth..
    if you don't punish those that break the rules of society, then the whole fabric of society falls apart.
    this holds true for every different kind of society- from the family unit on up to organizations like the United Nations.
    Very nicely stated.

    In my opinion, there will ALWAYS be a "criminal element", mandating that there will ALWAYS be punishment for those who choose to break the rules.

    It is basic Human nature.
    Last edited by R.A.F.; 2012-Apr-09 at 04:15 PM. Reason: removed a redundant "there"

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
    ...why would you think that some time in the future would be any different?
    Allow me to re-phrase....


    I see no reason to think that the "criminal element" of the future will be any different from the present day "criminal element". In other words, punishment will always be "necessary".

    If someone disagrees, please state your reasons for thinking so.

  10. #70
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    Shakespeare thought that probably everyone deserved punishment, but he also suggested that we should try to cut people some slack on that when we can.

    Quote Originally Posted by William Shakespeare
    Hamlet: Good my lord, will you see the players well bestowed? Do you hear, let them be well used, for they are the abstract and brief chronicles of the time. After your death you were better have a bad epitaph than their ill report while you live.
    Polonius: My lord, I will use them according to their desert.
    Hamlet: God’s bodykins, man, much better. Use every man after his desert, and who should ’scape whipping? Use them after your own honor and dignity. The less they deserve, the more merit is in your bounty. Take them in.
    Conserve energy. Commute with the Hamiltonian.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    Shakespeare thought that probably everyone deserved punishment
    Er - Shakespeare created a character who thought that.

  12. #72
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    There is a technical term for someone who confuses the opinions of a character in a book with those of the author.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tog View Post
    If it's a compulsive behavior, I wouldn't skip any of them. If I choose which one I mug, I'm demonstrating some control over my actions. Maybe it really is a compulsion and I hold out as long as I can, targeting only those least likely to get me caught, so I can do more later. That's still controlling it to some degree.
    And in my opinion, if you do it compulsively, it is to society's benefit--and your own!--to remove you from situations where you have the opportunity to shove down old women and steal their purses. Is that punishment? By your definition, and indeed by many reasonable ones, yes. But it may also be seen as protecting you from your own compulsion and certainly protecting old women from it.
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  14. #74
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    And for that matter, if there's no free will to chose to commit crimes, why think there's any choice for society to chose to punishing them?

    A society (which has survived for more than a fortnight) with a belief in no free will still be one in which punishment for crimes happen. Historically they've actually been the ones in which the punishments are harshest.
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  15. #75
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    I don't understand that, theocracies were/are the harshest and they believe in free will surely?

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    And in my opinion, if you do it compulsively, it is to society's benefit--and your own!--to remove you from situations where you have the opportunity to shove down old women and steal their purses. Is that punishment? By your definition, and indeed by many reasonable ones, yes. But it may also be seen as protecting you from your own compulsion and certainly protecting old women from it.
    Absolutely. I think the compulsive part is the key difference between "menace to society" and "danger to oneself or others."
    I'm Not Evil.
    An evil person would do the things that pop into my head.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    I don't understand that, theocracies were/are the harshest and they believe in free will surely?
    Why "surely"? Look into Calvinism, and that's just one example.
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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    I don't understand that, theocracies were/are the harshest and they believe in free will surely?
    Where on earth did you get the idea that theocracies believe in free will?

    Actually it's historically tended to be the theocracies where "everything is God's will" that have the harshest punishments, because they could/can excuse the actions of everyone involved in the act because it's all God's will.
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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Okay, let's get down to it. Why? If you acknowledge that punishment has desirable outcomes, why is it always undeserved?
    Punishment can achieve a desired effect... but that's irrelevant to the issue of this thread... which is... can punishment ever be deserved.
    As far as your above statement goes... if horsewhipping a slave had the desired effect of causing her to not try and escape again... would that make the horsewhipping deserved.???

    My little sister was never going to respond to positive reinforcement. That's simply not how her brain works. She merely did what was most convenient to her without the slightest concern about how other people dealt with it. What is your advice on how to get someone like that to stop stealing?
    Well first... do you consider her mentally ill... a product of poor child rearing... a combination of both or something else?

    How do you think we should get them to follow the laws of society? Or do you think there is no reason for those laws?
    I agree with society making and enforcing laws... and punishment/incarceration is necessary to enforce those laws.!!!

    What, if anything, is your point?
    I think free will (uninfluenced choice) is just an illusion... so with no free choice... punishment can not be deserved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    No jails for anyone then?
    It's hard to take a blanket statement like that seriously.
    No need to take it seriously as far as I'm concerned... because I didn't make such a statement.!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tog View Post
    I think we need a hard definition of both "Deserve" and "Punishment," especially in the way punishment and rehabilitation differ.

    I think of punishment as the negative consequence of violating a rule or law. This could be prison, a caning, a stern talking to, or a time-out. Punishment for a minor violation in hockey is to "go to the box and feel shame" for two minutes, while you watch your team try to fend off the other which now has one more player.

    By my definition ANY unwelcome consequence is a punishment, even it's ultimately beneficial.
    That definition works for me.

    As for Deserve, it seems that the question being asked is do humans have free will. If I shove an old woman down and steal her purse, did I do it because it's my fault, or is there some mental defect or compulsion that drove me to it? The answer, here would seem to be simple enough. Do I shove every old woman down, or just the ones near dark alleys, walking alone?

    If it's a compulsive behavior, I wouldn't skip any of them. If I choose which one I mug, I'm demonstrating some control over my actions. Maybe it really is a compulsion and I hold out as long as I can, targeting only those least likely to get me caught, so I can do more later. That's still controlling it to some degree.
    You make some good points if favor of free will being an illusion.

    To say that no one deserves punishment implies that no one does anything contrary to the rules or laws of the land, under which everyone in that social group lives. That means that either the laws don't exist, or they are impossible to break. There's not a lot of support for either case.
    My point is... that no one deserves punishment for behaving in a "negative' way... if that behavior was beyond their control.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    I think free will (uninfluenced choice) is just an illusion... so with no free choice... punishment can not be deserved.
    The way I understand free will is that the person has the ability to make choices without outside influences.
    When it comes to influence and deserverd, I think that is a societal choice.
    So; I see them in different context.

    While influence may affect how I exercise my free will, I still have the free will to make that choice.

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    I don't understand that, theocracies were/are the harshest and they believe in free will surely?
    The notion of "free will" seems to be a necessity for the theocracies that believe in an everlasting hell... that way... when someone winds up in hell it's not God's fault... because the person in hell chose to be there of their own free will.

  22. #82
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    Leaving theology out of it, We as a collective community must needs have a code of conduct , which can genericaly cover
    our civil behavior relating with all those of whom we are in contact with or affect. And we likewise have a responsibility
    to Mother Nature , who shall surely punish us for our conduct as stewards of this world.
    In view of the aberations in personal profile which crop up daily, society provides necessary provisions to remedy those situations. Your free will does not include a license to harm and infringe on others. All of our law is based on this concept. We may not have achieved perfection, but we have a system, and it works. Clatu
    Last edited by danscope; 2012-Apr-09 at 09:19 PM.

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    Punishment can achieve a desired effect... but that's irrelevant to the issue of this thread... which is... can punishment ever be deserved.
    [...]
    I agree with society making and enforcing laws... and punishment/incarceration is necessary to enforce those laws.!!!
    If punishment is necessary to enforce laws and you agree there are laws that should be enforced, then it is deserved in those cases, correct?

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  24. #84
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    Originally Posted by P Timmy
    I think free will (uninfluenced choice) is just an illusion... so with no free choice... punishment can not be deserved.

    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    The way I understand free will is that the person has the ability to make choices without outside influences.
    Well that's one argument... but influence is influence no matter where it comes from... and I can't imagine a scenario in which a choice was made that wasn't influenced.

    When it comes to influence and deserverd, I think that is a societal choice.
    So; I see them in different context.
    As can be seen by the poll for this thread... society thinks punishment is deserved.

    While influence may affect how I exercise my free will, I still have the free will to make that choice.
    That perfectly describes the illusion.

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perikles
    Er - Shakespeare created a character who thought that.
    Quote Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen
    There is a technical term for someone who confuses the opinions of a character in a book with those of the author.
    I think it's fair to say with certainty that there are times that authors (or playwrights) have their characters make statements that represent the views of the author in question, not just the opinions of the character. I would quickly acknowledge that it is not necessarily a simple matter to determine if and when that might be true in any specific case. However, my personal opinion* from reading the text, is that the opinions expressed by Hamlet in these lines were shared by Shakespeare himself. Especially the bit where he says how important it is to stay in the good graces of actors, but also that other bit, too.


    * Which clearly might be different from your own.
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  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    If punishment is necessary to enforce laws and you agree there are laws that should be enforced, then it is deserved in those cases, correct?
    My point is... that no one deserves punishment for behaving in a "negative' way... if that behavior was beyond their control... and with no free will then everything is beyond our control... so no... punishment is never deserved.

  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    The notion of "free will" seems to be a necessity for the theocracies that believe in an everlasting hell... that way... when someone winds up in hell it's not God's fault... because the person in hell chose to be there of their own free will.
    I don't believe in hell and I am an agnostic leaning toward atheist, and I believe in free will, so I don't see what it has to do with theocracies. Sure, there are plenty of circumstances where people have little or no free choice, and we are surrounded by influences. But ultimately, we are individually responsible for our own actions, and need to accept the consequences of those.

    Just my 2 cents...
    Quote Originally Posted by danscope View Post
    Leaving theology out of it, We as a collective community must needs have a code of conduct , which can genericaly cover
    our civil behavior relating with all those of whom we are in contact with or affect. And we likewise have a responsibility
    to Mother Nature , who shall surely punish us for our conduct as stewards of this world.
    In view of the berations in personal profile which crop up daily, society provides necessary provisions to remedy those situations. Your free will does not include a license to harm and infringe on others. All of our law is based on this concept. We may not have achieved perfection, but we have a system, and it works. Clatu
    Nicely said.
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  28. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by danscope View Post
    Your free will does not include a license to harm and infringe on others. All of our law is based on this concept. We may not have achieved perfection, but we have a system, and it works. Clatu
    And... even those of us who don't have beliefs in free will don't have a license to harm and infringe on others.

  29. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    My point is... that no one deserves punishment for behaving in a "negative' way... if that behavior was beyond their control...
    That si decidely NOT what you posted in the OP....why the change??


    ...and with no free will...
    Where did you get the idea that there is no "free will" for any/everybody??


    ...then everything is beyond our control... so no... punishment is never deserved.

    Sorry, your "argument" remains unconvincing.

  30. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    And... even those of us who don't have beliefs in free will don't have a license to harm and infringe on others.
    Tell the guy about to rob you that he has no "license" to infringe on your rights...

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