View Poll Results: Do people ever deserve punishment.???

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    41 95.35%
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Thread: Punishment.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    I I don't think anybody deserves punishment or reward... anymore than a calculator deserves punishment or reward for the answer it might display.!!!

    Human beings are far more intricate than any computer, let alone a calculator. If one human being consistently out performs another in a particular field or endeavor, he or she is usually rewarded or compensated for it. Society isn't going to pretend they're both the same so as not to bruise any egos. The opposite goes for human beings who are a detriment to society. Punishment is a negative stimulus meant to discourage such behavior.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selenite View Post
    If there are no negative repercussions for committing a crime...
    Yes I agree that punishment is necessary in our current society.!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen View Post
    What makes you think all criminal behavior is caused by mental problems that can be cured?
    What makes you think rehabilitation is possible in all cases?
    That's not what I think... please quote what I said to make you think that.!!!

    Without punishment, doing whatever you want is the rational choice because it has no adverse consequences.
    Without the threat of punishment, why should I not take anything I fancy?
    I do think punishment is necessary in our current society.!!!

  3. #33
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    It could very well be argued that any sanction imposed on a person, whether it be the death penalty, incarceration, demonstrating how "disappointed" one is in another's actions, or even ordered rehabilitation, is punishment. Thus by extension, punishment would indeed be deserved.
    problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back (Piet Hein)
    I cook with wine, and sometime I even add it to the food. (W.C. Fields)
    I don't ask stupid questions. I just make stupid statements!!!
    Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selenite View Post
    Human beings are far more intricate than any computer, let alone a calculator. If one human being consistently out performs another in a particular field or endeavor, he or she is usually rewarded or compensated for it. Society isn't going to pretend they're both the same so as not to bruise any egos. The opposite goes for human beings who are a detriment to society. Punishment is a negative stimulus meant to discourage such behavior.
    Yes I agree.!!!

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by AstroRockHunter View Post
    It could very well be argued that any sanction imposed on a person, whether it be the death penalty, incarceration, demonstrating how "disappointed" one is in another's actions, or even ordered rehabilitation, is punishment. Thus by extension, punishment would indeed be deserved.
    Do you think that humans are the only animal that can deserve punishment.???

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    Do you think that humans are the only animal that can deserve punishment.???
    Your original question was "Do people ever deserve punishment?" Thus I must conclude that your question about whether "humans are the only animal that can deserve punishment???" is irrelevant to the current discussion.
    problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back (Piet Hein)
    I cook with wine, and sometime I even add it to the food. (W.C. Fields)
    I don't ask stupid questions. I just make stupid statements!!!
    Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
    All truths are simple to understand, once they are found. The challenge is finding them. (attrib. to Galileo)


  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    I do think punishment is necessary in our current society.!!!
    Yes...so why would you think that some time in the future would be any different?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by danscope View Post
    There are and always shall be consequences for our actions.
    OK... but to be clear... my issue is whether or not punishment is ever deserved.!!!

    We learn this when we are young and try to run in a dangerous situation, fall down and get scraped up. Those sore and bleeding scrapes keep reminding us for a few days. Nature builds in a
    system to educate and punish repeat offenders. They are known by their appearance, casts on their leg, patch on the eye etc etc.

    The two stupid kids that were racing down my little winding country road ( speed limit 25 mph) slammed into the big tree at over 40 mph after the brake marks of 130 feet. Destroyed ( mummy's ) ND THE COURT APPEARANCE for
    reckless driving charges and speeding charges will render them un-insurable and personna nongratta for quite some time.
    They shall usee shoe leather for their transportation needs for many years to come. In winter, that is some punishment indeed. It is what they certainly deserve for risking death and severe harm to the innocent pedestrian and drivers they
    threaten.
    OK... you think stupid people can deserve punishment... but what about severely retarded people... or insane people... do you think any allowance should be made for them if they don't behave properly--like normal/sane people.???

    For a more extreme example (than you gave above) to test your ideas... do you think children who played with matches (when warned not to) and subsequently burned to death... deserved the consequences of their actions.???

    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    Do you think that humans are the only animal that can deserve punishment.???
    Quote Originally Posted by AstroRockHunter View Post
    Your original question was "Do people ever deserve punishment?" Thus I must conclude that your question about whether "humans are the only animal that can deserve punishment???" is irrelevant to the current discussion.
    Thanks... but I consider it closely enough related to be on topic... and it could help me to understand why you think humans can deserve punishment.!!!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    OK... but to be clear... my issue is whether or not punishment is ever deserved.!!!
    ...asked and answered...what is it about the replies, here, that you don't understand?


    OK... you think stupid people can deserve punishment... but what about severely retarded people... or insane people... do you think any allowance should be made for them if they don't behave properly--like normal/sane people.???
    Of course....why are you changing the parameters of your question?

    For a more extreme example (than you gave above) to test your ideas... do you think children who played with matches (when warned not to) and subsequently burned to death... deserved the consequences of their actions.???
    That's not "punishment", it's a consequence of stupidity....it might not be "deserved", but it's going to happen anyway.


    ...it could help me to understand why you think humans can deserve punishment.!!!
    Why do you phrase it in this manner?....what do you mean by "can" deserve punishment?



    ...and if you could answer my question....post #37.
    Last edited by R.A.F.; 2012-Apr-08 at 10:36 PM. Reason: added post #

  10. #40
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    My younger sister is a sociopath. She does whatever is most convenient to her at any given time. My mother seldom punished her. When she did, my sister learned that whatever-it-was wasn't worth the bother that would ensue when she was caught. When she stole from family members, Mom yelled but didn't do much else. When she stole from outsiders, there was punishment if she was caught. Therefore, my sister was not as likely to steal from outsiders.

    And, yes, we punish the cat when he does something he knows he isn't supposed to do. He is capable of learning, therefore punishment when he disobeys the rules is valid and legitimate.
    _____________________________________________
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    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    My younger sister is a sociopath.
    Sorry to hear that... I can't even imagine how difficult it must be for everyone involved.!!!

    She does whatever is most convenient to her at any given time. My mother seldom punished her. When she did, my sister learned that whatever-it-was wasn't worth the bother that would ensue when she was caught. When she stole from family members, Mom yelled but didn't do much else. When she stole from outsiders, there was punishment if she was caught. Therefore, my sister was not as likely to steal from outsiders.
    I agree that punishment can get desired results.!!!

    And, yes, we punish the cat when he does something he knows he isn't supposed to do. He is capable of learning, therefore punishment when he disobeys the rules is valid and legitimate.
    I'm in my sixties now... but when I was about 12 I would hit my Beagle (which was tied up outside) with a rolled up newspaper when it would howl at night... now I don't even think it's ethical to breed animals for pets... much less leave them tied up outside or punish them when they annoy or break the unnatural rules made up for human convenience.!!!

    The next dog I owned was an Australian Terrier (which died a couple of years ago from liver cancer)... and she lived inside with us and was never punished other than a firm NO... but got lots of positive reinforcement and seemed to be a very happy dog.!!!

    Would you think it was ethical if highly advanced aliens from a galaxy far far away captured and selectively bread humans for their personal pets... and used punishment to get desired behavior.???

    Edit in red.!!!
    Last edited by P Timmy; 2012-Apr-09 at 01:10 AM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    Would you think it was ethical if highly advanced aliens from a galaxy far far away captured and selectively bread humans for their personal pets.???

    Perhaps you should start a different thread if you want to discuss other topics.


    Could you please respond to post #37??

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    OK... but to be clear... my issue is whether or not punishment is ever deserved.!!!
    Which is vastly different from what you started with.

    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by AstroRockHunter View Post
    Your original question was "Do people ever deserve punishment?" Thus I must conclude that your question about whether "humans are the only animal that can deserve punishment???" is irrelevant to the current discussion.
    Thanks... but I consider it closely enough related to be on topic... and it could help me to understand why you think humans can deserve punishment.!!!
    No, it is not closely related.

    Which prompts the questions; What do you consider as punishment? Could you give some examples? How would human punishment equate to other animal punishment?
    problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back (Piet Hein)
    I cook with wine, and sometime I even add it to the food. (W.C. Fields)
    I don't ask stupid questions. I just make stupid statements!!!
    Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
    All truths are simple to understand, once they are found. The challenge is finding them. (attrib. to Galileo)


  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen View Post
    Without punishment, doing whatever you want is the rational choice because it has no adverse consequences.
    Without the threat of punishment, why should I not take anything I fancy?
    I can't agree with this. Only doing what's right because of fear of punishment is the ethics of the sociopath.

    Some reasons:

    Because you don't want to hurt other people with your actions. You have the capacity to consider how others feel and care about them.

    Because humans are social animals, we survive in groups, and doing things to hurt the group is stupid.

    Because people don't like thieves. Even if you weren't overtly punished in Hypothetical World, if you were found out, people would treat you differently.

    Why limit it to theft? Is it fear of punishment that should keep people from molesting children? From beating their spouses? From torturing people? From spitting on a homeless person and tearing up their refrigerator-box?

  15. 2012-Apr-09, 01:19 AM
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    likely would be ignored

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by AstroRockHunter View Post
    No, it is not closely related.
    Well of course you don't have to answer... but I think it better that we just agree to disagree rather than nitpick at each others posts when we could be answering each others questions.!!!

  17. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
    Yes...so why would you think that some time in the future would be any different?
    FYI...I will continue asking this question until timmy answers it.


    Timmy, if you can't/won't answer this question, please do me the "honor" of explaining just why on the board....I don't "do" PM discussions..

  18. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
    ...and yes, I do require you to answer...
    Quote Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen View Post
    Let me start by addressing your obvious insanity as indicated by the repeated use of multiple exclamation marks, for which you need therapy: STOP DOING THAT. NOW! It's one exclamation mark and it's instead of the period.
    I think a couple of members need to take it down a notch. This is not ATM or CT where the OP is required to answer questions. And while non-standard punctuation can be annoying, this post is not appropriate.

    If people can not discuss this politely, I will demonstrate that I fully believe that there are times when people deserve punishment.
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  19. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
    FYI...I will continue asking this question until timmy answers it.

    Timmy, if you can't/won't answer this question, please do me the "honor" of explaining just why on the board....I don't "do" PM discussions..
    I didn't send you a PM... I left you a public Visitor Message... which explains why I think it better that we just agree to disagree.!!!

  20. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    Well of course you don't have to answer... but I think it better that we just agree to disagree rather than nitpick at each others posts when we could be answering each others questions.!!!
    Fine.

    Then why didn't you address/answer the questions that were in the post?
    problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back (Piet Hein)
    I cook with wine, and sometime I even add it to the food. (W.C. Fields)
    I don't ask stupid questions. I just make stupid statements!!!
    Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
    All truths are simple to understand, once they are found. The challenge is finding them. (attrib. to Galileo)


  21. 2012-Apr-09, 02:39 AM
    Reason
    Because I just read Swift's post.

  22. #50
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    @ Timmy, Sir: You Do realise that the mentally disadvantaged people you mentioned live in a "qualified" and separate reality, where they are more closely ....yea constantly watched and supervised so that they are not a danger to themselves or to anyone who might suffer from their misguided or thoughtless actions. You know.... even children
    of higher intelligence must be saved from themelves. I have several sets of golf clubs. They are not toys. A pitching wedge in the hands of an untrained or inconsiderate or completely un-aware person( young or old ) is a VERY dangerous
    situation where that person could swing the club back, not having 'cleared' the playing area and strike someone
    ( perhaps another child etc ) in the face and do some bruttal damage.... like you wouldn't believe. Just like we don't leave matches around or broken glass or guns etc etc. We must assume the responsibility for those who cannot understand that concept.
    But ... yes, we can provide a "Non- reward " for children and the like when they disobey such rules as we shall have of them. Reinforced good behavior and behavior modification techniques in concert for the individual , such as they can
    manage can result in a better managment of their lives and improve their quality of life within that theatre.
    The term "Punishment" gets rather blurred in that regard. Pray you are not burdened with those chores and responsibility. It is too often a thankless and underpaid job which never goes away.

  23. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    I didn't send you a PM... I left you a public Visitor Message...
    Yes, that was my error...however, just so ya know...I don't "do" off board discussions.


    ...which explains why I think it better that we just agree to disagree.!!!
    Which explains nothing of the sort. You don't want to answer "difficult" questions, well, you get to have it your way.


    I just take it for granted that everyone is more or less like me, and I'm more than happy to answer any questions put to me...that is what a "discussion" board is all about.


    Lets just say I am disappointed that you can't answer my question....but I've been disappointed before, so nothing new...
    Last edited by R.A.F.; 2012-Apr-09 at 04:06 AM. Reason: removed "apparently"

  24. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    Sorry to hear that... I can't even imagine how difficult it must be for everyone involved.!!!
    Can you imagine how much worse it would have been if she'd always gotten her way instead having checks on her?

    I agree that punishment can get desired results.!!!
    Yes. And lack of punishment reinforces negative behaviour.

    I'm in my sixties now... but when I was about 12 I would hit my Beagle (which was tied up outside) with a rolled up newspaper when it would howl at night... now I don't even think it's ethical to breed animals for pets... much less leave them tied up outside or punish them when they annoy or break the unnatural rules made up for human convenience.!!!
    D wasn't bred to be a pet. He was rescued from a life where he would have died of starvation as a kitten. But had his mother not been killed, she would have punished him when he was a kitten for things he did that he wasn't supposed to. Humans are not the only animals to enforce their rules on others.

    The next dog I owned was an Australian Terrier (which died a couple of years ago from liver cancer)... and she lived inside with us and was never punished other than a firm NO... but got lots of positive reinforcement and seemed to be a very happy dog.!!!
    Ah, but did you ask how D is punished? You did not. You assumed corporal punishment. Frankly, you rather seem to be assuming that I'm mistreating my cat. As it happens, most of the time, he gets punished with a firm "no." Sometimes being physically moved away from whatever he's doing . . . such as getting into situations which could be physically dangerous for him.

    Would you think it was ethical if highly advanced aliens from a galaxy far far away captured and selectively bread humans for their personal pets... and used punishment to get desired behavior.???

    Edit in red.!!!
    Well, now, that would depend on a whole lot of factors. But it also involves a lot of assumptions on your part, doesn't it?
    _____________________________________________
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    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  25. #53
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    Originally Posted by P Timmy
    Sorry to hear that... I can't even imagine how difficult it must be for everyone involved.!!!

    Can you imagine how much worse it would have been if she'd always gotten her way instead having checks on her?
    Probably much worse.!!!
    -----------------------
    I agree that punishment can get desired results.!!!

    Yes. And lack of punishment reinforces negative behaviour.
    I'm in my sixties now... but when I was about 12 I would hit my Beagle (which was tied up outside) with a rolled up newspaper when it would howl at night... now I don't even think it's ethical to breed animals for pets... much less leave them tied up outside or punish them when they annoy or break the unnatural rules made up for human convenience.!!!

    D wasn't bred to be a pet. He was rescued from a life where he would have died of starvation as a kitten. But had his mother not been killed, she would have punished him when he was a kitten for things he did that he wasn't supposed to. Humans are not the only animals to enforce their rules on others.
    I think all common house cats are from selective breeding... and rescuing a "pet" is a wonderful thing... but I think all punishment is undeserved... even if it does come from a mama cat to its baby.!!!
    ----------------------

    The next dog I owned was an Australian Terrier (which died a couple of years ago from liver cancer)... and she lived inside with us and was never punished other than a firm NO... but got lots of positive reinforcement and seemed to be a very happy dog.!!!

    Ah, but did you ask how D is punished? You did not. You assumed corporal punishment. Frankly, you rather seem to be assuming that I'm mistreating my cat.
    I don't recall if I assumed corporal punishment or not... but it's irrelevant since I think that all punishment is undeserved.!!!

    As it happens, most of the time, he gets punished with a firm "no." Sometimes being physically moved away from whatever he's doing . . . such as getting into situations which could be physically dangerous for him.
    That sounds like a very well taken care of cat :-)
    ----------------------------------
    Would you think it was ethical if highly advanced aliens from a galaxy far far away captured and selectively bread humans for their personal pets... and used punishment to get desired behavior.???

    Well, now, that would depend on a whole lot of factors. But it also involves a lot of assumptions on your part, doesn't it?
    Yes it does... so under what scenario do you see it as ethical for humans to be captured by highly advanced aliens and selectively bread to be their personal pets... and punished by them to get desired behaviors.???

  26. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    Originally Posted by P Timmy
    Sorry to hear that... I can't even imagine how difficult it must be for everyone involved.!!!
    Also, BTW, is there something wrong with your keyboard? The exclamation and question mark keys seem to be stuck or something. You always have three of them after any statement or question. You might want to try unsticking the keys. Or at least try using one of those air sprayers.
    As above, so below

  27. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    I don't recall if I assumed corporal punishment or not... but it's irrelevant since I think that all punishment is undeserved.!!!
    Okay, let's get down to it. Why? If you acknowledge that punishment has desirable outcomes, why is it always undeserved? My little sister was never going to respond to positive reinforcement. That's simply not how her brain works. She merely did what was most convenient to her without the slightest concern about how other people dealt with it. What is your advice on how to get someone like that to stop stealing? How do you think we should get them to follow the laws of society? Or do you think there is no reason for those laws? What, if anything, is your point?
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  28. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    I don't recall if I assumed corporal punishment or not... but it's irrelevant since I think that all punishment is undeserved.!!!
    No jails for anyone then? Or do you not consider that punishment?

    You're serious about this? This isn't a joke topic? It's hard to take a blanket statement like that seriously.

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  29. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    OK... but to be clear... my issue is whether or not punishment is ever deserved.!!!
    It is for people who refuse to learn.

    One exclamation mark, no period.
    And one question mark, no period.
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  30. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen View Post
    It is for people who refuse to learn.

    One exclamation mark, no period.
    And one question mark, no period.
    Seconded. I find this affectation extremely annoying, to the point that I will not be reading any more posts by anyone who practises it.

  31. #59
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    It's ok, he has this key; it makes things difficult.

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  32. #60
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    I think we need a hard definition of both "Deserve" and "Punishment," especially in the way punishment and rehabilitation differ.

    I think of punishment as the negative consequence of violating a rule or law. This could be prison, a caning, a stern talking to, or a time-out. Punishment for a minor violation in hockey is to "go to the box and feel shame" for two minutes, while you watch your team try to fend off the other which now has one more player.

    By my definition ANY unwelcome consequence is a punishment, even it's ultimately beneficial.

    As for Deserve, it seems that the question being asked is do humans have free will. If I shove an old woman down and steal her purse, did I do it because it's my fault, or is there some mental defect or compulsion that drove me to it? The answer, here would seem to be simple enough. Do I shove every old woman down, or just the ones near dark alleys, walking alone?

    If it's a compulsive behavior, I wouldn't skip any of them. If I choose which one I mug, I'm demonstrating some control over my actions. Maybe it really is a compulsion and I hold out as long as I can, targeting only those least likely to get me caught, so I can do more later. That's still controlling it to some degree.

    To say that no one deserves punishment implies that no one does anything contrary to the rules or laws of the land, under which everyone in that social group lives. That means that either the laws don't exist, or they are impossible to break. There's not a lot of support for either case.
    I'm Not Evil.
    An evil person would do the things that pop into my head.

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