View Poll Results: Do people ever deserve punishment.???

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Thread: Punishment.

  1. #1
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    Punishment.

    Please answer the poll and discuss if you like.!!!
    Personally... I don't think anybody ever deserves punishment.!!!

  2. #2
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    So, how would crimes be dealt with? A good shunning? No, wait, that's a punishment too.

    I guess we should all give rapists and murderers high fives and thumbs up for a job well done.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    So, how would crimes be dealt with? A good shunning? No, wait, that's a punishment too.
    I guess we should all give rapists and murderers high fives and thumbs up for a job well done.
    Those are separate issues from my question... but do you also think an insane person deserves the same punishment for the same type of crime that a sane person committed.???

  4. #4
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    Whether anyone deserves punishment is a separate issue from whether punishment should be used.

    In many criminal systems, and other parts of life, punishment isn't used because someone deserves it, it's used in order to make the expected price for non-desired behavior high enough to discourage that behavior from happening.

    Note "discourage", not "prevent". No matter how high it is, there will always be people for whom the price is low enough.
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  5. #5
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    Henrick's observation puts the question well into perspective. Society has to punish as a deterrent. Society could not function without such punishment, so the question of whether it is deserved or not remains fairly academic.

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    right on, this is the individual versus society and any society can kill an individual so therefore society wins. The word deserve hides the old dilemma or balance between rights and responsibilities within a society. Usually the individual gets both just by being born. We can presume some rebellion in every individual so punishment in a graded scheme is required or maybe the threat of punishment is enough, but the threat will always need reinforcement with action because individuals can weigh up the risks very well. Assessing risk is one of our greatest abilities as self aware animals.

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    Trying to handle the question "do people ever deserve punishment" scientifically is impossible, because of the word "deserve." Had you asked a question like "Is punishment effective in preventing behaviors that are unacceptable?" you could get a scientific answer; the poll question is essentially political and ethical.

    People commit acts which are unacceptable to society: it is necessary for society to sanction -- punish -- these people in some way to maintain social cohesion and prevent civil society from breaking down into competing gangs. Since I'm not an idiot, I know that some people commit unacceptable acts while insane. A moral society will treat these people's medical issues in lieu of punishment.
    Last edited by swampyankee; 2012-Apr-08 at 02:16 PM.
    Information about American English usage here and here. Floating point issues? Please read this before posting.

  8. #8
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    Even if it were scientifically proven punishment is ineffective against criminal activity, we'd still have to answer the question as to whether or not criminals should be allowed to intermingle with the rest of civilized society.

    I say no, they shouldn't. That's the other reason we have jails and prisons.

  9. #9
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    The question is too broad in scope.

    What is punishment? I can say, we punish a murderer, by in turn, ending his own life. We may punish a drunk driver by making them do community service, where they 'make up' for their bad behavior. We may punish a child by restricting their activities, because they broke a rule. Those are simple, and fairly easy to see as punishment, whether we agree they are appropriate or not.

    But what if it's more vague? Is it punishment to fire an employee from a job for poor performance? If I decide that one of my friends has become too annoying, and quit spending time with him, even though he still wants to spend time together, is that punishment?

    Most of our actions have some sort of consequence. I don't know that if it is a negative consequence, it is necessarily punishment. Or is it?

    TJ

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen View Post
    Whether anyone deserves punishment is a separate issue from whether punishment should be used.
    And whether or not punishment is "deserved" is the focus I intend for this thread.!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
    Henrick's observation puts the question well into perspective. Society has to punish as a deterrent. Society could not function without such punishment, so the question of whether it is deserved or not remains fairly academic.
    Even though the use of "punishment" still seems ingrained within society... I disagree that society "has to punish"... or that "society could not function without punishment"... and it also seems to me that the trend has been toward understanding/rehabilitation and away from revenge/harsher punishments.!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    Trying to handle the question "do people ever deserve punishment" scientifically is impossible...
    Except that... I'd like for the discussion to include available scientific evidence about determinism and free will as it applies to whether or not punishment is ever deserved.!!!

    Since I'm not an idiot, I know that some people commit unacceptable acts while insane. A moral society will treat these people's medical issues in lieu of punishment.
    Yes... and it's science which has driven the "moral" trend toward more compassion and away from "punishments"... such as... science has shown that mental illnesses have biological causes... not demons/devils... and that the mentally ill don't deserve the punishments "society" once thought.!!!

    In other words... the more we know... the more we understand that people do not deserve punishment.!!!

    For example:::

    Does an adult who abuses animals deserve punishment.???

    Quote Originally Posted by DoggerDan View Post
    Even if it were scientifically proven punishment is ineffective against criminal activity, we'd still have to answer the question as to whether or not criminals should be allowed to intermingle with the rest of civilized society.
    I say no, they shouldn't. That's the other reason we have jails and prisons.
    The issue of this thread is whether or not people ever deserve punishment.!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TJMac View Post
    The question is too broad in scope.
    What is punishment?
    For the purpose of this discussion a broad definition of punishment is fine... because the issue is whether or not punishment is ever deserved... (however punishment is defined).!!!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    The issue of this thread is whether or not people ever deserve punishment.!!!
    How many yes "votes" before you concede that your idea is flawed?...that simply asserting an idea does not make it true?


    Why is it that you "want" there to be no punishment, ever....what did you "do"??

  12. #12
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    Do we deserve to be alive? It (deserve) is a word that begs questions so you will not get a straight answer. Whatever you regards as individual rights are just a set of ideas devised within society. If society asks for punishment in defined ways (justice sytems are complex and expensive for society) then psdesreved it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    I disagree that society "has to punish"... or that "society could not function without punishment"...
    So what would you do with people who harm others in pursuit of their own selfish needs? What would you do with somebody who needs a small amount of money on the spot and is prepared to blow somebody's brains out just to get a few banknotes? Society needs at least to restrict their freedom so they don't do it more than once. Or do you disagree with that? If they restrict somebody's freedom and the person does not like it, it is a punishment. Do you disagree with that, and/or object to it?

  14. #14
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    Hello P Timmy,

    It looks like you got some good responses (I particularly like those of swampyankee and Henrik Olsen), but then you also got responses from SkepticJ and RAF.

    I have to agree, it all comes down to what you mean by "deserve" - any clarification?

    Quote Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
    How many yes "votes" before you concede that your idea is flawed?...
    Maybe you could figure out what the idea is before you rubbish it.

    Quote Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
    that simply asserting an idea does not make it true?
    I think P Timmy knows that. If I had to guess, I'd say that P Timmy is also aware that getting a bunch of yes votes in an internet poll does not make an idea true or false.

    Quote Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
    Why is it that you "want" there to be no punishment, ever....what did you "do"??
    P Timmy didn't say that. Are all your quotations invented?

    There is some good advice in your own post - please take it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
    How many yes "votes" before you concede that your idea is flawed?...that simply asserting an idea does not make it true?
    The poll results are not surprising to me... and I concede that I might be wrong about everything... but I still think the idea of punishment not being deserved is interesting to discuss.!!!

    Why is it that you "want" there to be no punishment, ever....what did you "do"??
    For the best society possible at our current point in evolution I think punishment is necessary... but I think exploring the idea that punishment is never deserved could lead to a more compassionate/less hateful... society... and I think discussing the issue of the thread would be more productive than me bragging about what an angel I am... eh

  16. #16
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    When I was a child I got swatted for swiping cookies. It worked. The temptation didn't go away but the deterrent was there. Even getting away with it always left a tinge of shame or regret, so it just got to the point where taking things without permission wasn't worth it.

    However, I've noticed a few modern parents seem to be fond of the "expressing disapproval" route of punishment.

    "I'm going to take a cookie, father. Even though you told me not to."
    "I'm very disappointed in you, Missy. Give me a few seconds to try and well up some tears so you can see how really disappointed I am."
    Child walks away with cookie, not really caring that her father was disappointed or even worked up some tears because she is too busy eating the cookie.

    You could apply that to thieves and murders, too. If there are no negative repercussions for committing a crime, disobeying those who have authority over you, or doing anything that is wrong/against the law, there would be no law because law is based on punishment.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    I disagree that society "has to punish"... or that "society could not function without punishment"... and it also seems to me that the trend has been toward understanding/rehabilitation and away from revenge/harsher punishments.!!!
    What would you do with those who refuse to be "rehabilitated"? give them a "stern" talking to?


    Sorry, but no, your idea simple comes off as naive...without some form of punishment, there would be chaos.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by johansen View Post
    Are all your quotations invented?
    Why yes...I "invent" all my quotes.

    Hey, it obviously was the "answer" you were looking for, so I "gave it" to you.


    aside....do I know you, or do you think "attacking" was a proper way of "introducing" yourself??

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    ...I think exploring the idea that punishment is never deserved could lead to a more compassionate/less hateful... society...
    What is "compassionate", or "less hateful" about not punishing those who "break the rules"??


    Actually, now that I think about it....what you seem (ok, johansen? ) to be advocating is the need for rules at all....if no one deserves punishment, all rules would become meaningless.

  20. #20
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    I've read views by some people who believe in predestination to the extent that they do not hold a criminal responsible for the crime. Rather, they consider it a flaw in society, and contend that rather than punishing the criminal, society needs to be restructured to eliminate the possibility of the crime. But even there, I think they're only speaking of "active" punishment, and would not rule out ostracism or confinement as valid intermediate steps.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonM435 View Post
    I've read views by some people who believe in predestination to the extent that they do not hold a criminal responsible for the crime.
    If they don't think criminals have the free will to stop committing crime, how do they figure the rest of us have the free will to stop punishing them?

  22. #22
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    Ya know what..the following doesn't make any sense...

    Quote Originally Posted by johansen View Post
    Maybe you could figure out what the idea is before you rubbish it.
    What is it about the following...

    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    I don't think anybody ever deserves punishment.!!!

    ...that you think I don't understand?


    ...and yes, I do require you to answer...

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    Do we deserve to be alive?
    It (deserve) is a word that begs questions so you will not get a straight answer.
    Whatever you regards as individual rights are just a set of ideas devised within society. If society asks for punishment in defined ways (justice sytems are complex and expensive for society) then psdesreved it is.
    I don't know of any reason why "we" might deserve anything... but the bulk of replies I've received seem pretty straight in agreeing that punishment is deserved.!!!
    Yes... the whole of society rules... and I think a trend toward less emphasis on punishment and more effort toward rehabilitation is a good thing... how about you.???

    Quote Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
    Society needs at least to restrict their freedom...
    Yes I agree.!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by johansen View Post
    Hello P Timmy,

    ...it all comes down to what you mean by "deserve" - any clarification?
    Hi johansen...
    I don't see any evidence that humans are anything more than biological machines... so even though it's a basis of our current society... I don't think anybody deserves punishment or reward... anymore than a calculator deserves punishment or reward for the answer it might display.!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
    What would you do with those who refuse to be "rehabilitated"?
    Ideally... treat them humanely with as little punishment as possible.!!!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonM435 View Post
    I've read views by some people who believe in predestination to the extent that they do not hold a criminal responsible for the crime. Rather, they consider it a flaw in society, and contend that rather than punishing the criminal, society needs to be restructured to eliminate the possibility of the crime.
    How do they propose that a society like that could be created? Aside from forming a Borg collective--and doesn't that sound great?--I don't see how it could be done.

    But people who believe in predestination don't sound like critical thinkers, so pixie dust is probably how it's done.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    ....I don't think anybody deserves punishment or reward...
    Now you don't want anyone "rewarded"?

    Are you saying that no one "deserves" reward??


    Good luck "selling" that.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    Yes... and it's science which has driven the "moral" trend toward more compassion and away from "punishments"... such as... science has shown that mental illnesses have biological causes... not demons/devils... and that the mentally ill don't deserve the punishments "society" once thought.!!!
    Let me start by addressing your obvious insanity as indicated by the repeated use of multiple exclamation marks, for which you need therapy: STOP DOING THAT. NOW! It's one exclamation mark and it's instead of the period.
    That's rehabilitation enough I think, now back to the regular subject.

    What makes you think all criminal behavior is caused by mental problems that can be cured?
    What makes you think rehabilitation is possible in all cases?

    Without punishment, doing whatever you want is the rational choice because it has no adverse consequences.
    Without the threat of punishment, why should I not take anything I fancy?
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Timmy View Post
    I think a trend toward less emphasis on punishment and more effort toward rehabilitation is a good thing... how about you.???
    It is incredibily naive to think you could impliment something like this...some will say, "sure, I'm rehabilitated", then they will turn around AND KILL YOU.


    ...and I don't think the public at large would stand for that....not for too long, anyway...

  28. #28
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    Don't get me wrong....it's a noble idea...but it just can't "work" in the real world.

  29. #29
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    There are and always shall be consequences for our actions. We learn this when we are young and try to run in a dangerous situation, fall down and get scraped up. Those sore and bleeding scrapes keep reminding us for a few days. Nature builds in a
    system to educate and punish repeat offenders. They are known by their appearance, casts on their leg, patch on the eye
    etc etc. The two stupid kids that were racing down my little winding country road ( speed limit 25 mph) slammed into the big tree at over 40 mph after the brake marks of 130 feet. Destroyed ( mummy's ) car and THE COURT APPEARANCE for
    reckless driving charges and speeding charges will render them un-insurable and personna nongratta for quite some time.
    They shall use shoe leather for their transportation needs for many years to come. In winter, that is some punishment indeed. It is what they certainly deserve for risking death and severe harm to the innocent pedestrian and drivers they
    threaten.

    Dan
    Last edited by danscope; 2012-Apr-09 at 02:27 AM.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen View Post
    Without punishment, doing whatever you want is the rational choice because it has no adverse consequences.
    Without the threat of punishment, why should I not take anything I fancy?
    It's as I have posted...it isn't the "need" for rehabilitation instead of punishment that is being advocated, but the "need" for rules at all.


    Surprised it took me so long to "figure" it out....must be getting old.

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