The US Dollar Coin

[NEOWatcher]

I know that people are vocal about not wanting them, but there are two things that I wonder might not make it that bad:
1: Are we hearing from the squeaky wheels?

No, small dollar coins have been in circulation for decades, and they obviously haven't been very popular. If people preferred them, we would be using them instead of dollar bills.

I can understand them not being popular, and people not using them. The part I'm questioning are the people who are actually opposed to them instead of just not wanting them but will adopt them if it were made so.
As far as the argument of not being used because people don't prefer them, I can only go by my own experience. I prefer them but don't get them, so I can't use them and end up with dollar bills anyway.

See answer to question #1. I'm used to them. I don't want them.

You don't want them, but would it be an issue for you if we went that way? Do you think you wouldn't get used to them?

When the Susan B came out I had a blind relative that owned a small snack stand in a building. He could tell the difference between a quarter and Susan B, but only if he could take his time.

Yes; the SBA was a horrible design. But; what about the newer designs? Is it still hard for him to tell?

And the new presidential ones have "In God We Trust" and "E Pluribus Unum" stamped into the edge.

Yes; I wasn't happy with that design decision because it defeats the smooth edge advantage. But; I can see that being worn down quite quickly.

[Jim]

The Sacajawea dollars are smooth-edged, but the Susan B's have reeded edges like a quarter.

Ah, must read more carefully.

The SBAs have a raised polygon (hendecagon) on their faces along the edge.

[mike alexander]

We could use the Platonic solids:

tetrahedron=penny
cube=nickel
octahedron=dime
dodecahedron=quarter dollar
icosahedron=half dollar

and

sphere=dollar

[Trebuchet]

Hmm, there's a Sci-Fi/Fantasy story lurking there. Which has probably already been written.

[Krel]

Yes; the SBA was a horrible design. But; what about the newer designs? Is it still hard for him to tell?

Unfortunately he died in the late 80s, but I think that he could have, it was amazing what he could tell just by touch. As Jim pointed out the SBAs have a raised polygon on the inside edge, which he could feel, but it was difficult in a rush.

I can't remember the last time I was given a dollar coin, I don't reject them. I haven't even seen any of the President dollar coins in well over a year.

They could try forcing them on the the U.S. public, but it is not likely. Politicians like their jobs, and want to keep them. For some reason Americans will go ape over inconveniences. The government has been trying to force that foreign system of measurement on the American public for decades, but it is like hitting a brick wall with a pillow, no sale.

David.

[HenrikOlsen]

For some reason Americans will go ape over inconveniences. The government has been trying to force that foreign system of measurement on the American public for decades, but it is like hitting a brick wall with a pillow, no sale.

David.

I get the impression it's not really inconveniences per se, but rather inconveniences that require people to learn something new or change their habits of though which really trigger the stubbornness in the people..

[Perikles]

I get the impression it's not really inconveniences per se, but rather inconveniences that require people to learn something new or change their habits of though which really trigger the stubbornness in the people..

A good example of this was the change in currency in the UK around 1970 (?) when a massively inconvenient system was replaced by a much easier one. The reaction against the change was amazing, even though it just involved changing shillings and pence to 100 new pence, and keeping the pound. You might think it would be just the elderly who would object, but I remember my brother, young and with a science degree, actually throwing the new coins around the room in rage at the temporary inconvenience.

[NEOWatcher]

I get the impression it's not really inconveniences per se, but rather inconveniences that require people to learn something new or change their habits of though which really trigger the stubbornness in the people..

Yep; habits included if you think of "learning new habits". And, yes.. I'm actually more interested in adopting that [sarcasm]strange newfangled measuring system[/sarcasm] than in modifying coinage and has been a disappointment for most of my life.

Although; I think with the coin issue it's more a perception of "I don't like it" based on each individual's weighting of what the differences are.

A good example of this was the change in currency in the UK around 1970 (?) when a massively inconvenient system was replaced by a much easier one. The reaction against the change was amazing, even though it just involved changing shillings and pence to 100 new pence, and keeping the pound. You might think it would be just the elderly who would object, but I remember my brother, young and with a science degree, actually throwing the new coins around the room in rage at the temporary inconvenience.

I wonder if some of that is due to the thinking that there some sort of hidden loss in converting thier currency.

I know it's been mentioned before about "what if I don't convert my dollar bill in time?". It is an issue if it's not handled correctly. I can see people worrying about getting "stuck" with an old currency before a deadline.

[banquo's_bumble_puppy]

Since this thread on the Canadian penny went horribly off course with minutia of the US and it's dollar I figured it's best to start a new thread. In addition I want to start off fresh with stating my view up front, and hopefully clear, of my opinion of the subject. I am surprised there's been no infraction given* or complaints by Banquo for a thread hijack.
*(thank you because I think I was a willfull participant)

The short statement:
Considering the US government keeps messing up the conversion by "hoping" a dollar coin catches on, I think the situation would change if they had the discipline to use the same methods that the Canadians used in their conversion.

First, some facts and data that play into the discussion (from wiki and usmint.gov and moneyfactory.gov)
The Sacagawea dollar: 8.1g, 26.5mm x 2mm
The US quarter: 5.67g, 24.26mm x 1.75
The Canadian Dollar (loonie): 7g, 26.5mm x 1.95mm (eleven sided)
The US Dollar Bill Average lifetime is 42 months and makes up 42% of US currency produced
233 US dollar bills stacks 1 inch high. Or a standard 100 stack is 156x66.3x11 mm and is 100g
Average US coin lifetime is 25 years.

Why I support it?

Opinion: I usually spend small amounts in bill and coin, and large amounts in bills. With inflation over my lifetime, what used to be coin only purchases are now bill/coin purchases.
Also, I run into enough situations at a vending machine where I can't get those lousy warn out crumpled or torn and taped dollar bills into the machine.
I also like the design of the Canadian dollar better than the US dollar coin because of it's 11 sides, but I am comfortable with the Sacagawea dollar because it seems like a large improvement over the SBA dollar which was too quarter-like.
The color change helps, and the edging does feel quite different to me.
The change worked for the Canadians and I see no major reason that it couldn't work here.

Fact: it's cheaper for the government
The basic difference in printing costs is:
Bill: $0.1, coin: $0.21.
So; while the coin is more than twice as expensive, it is cheaper over the lifetime.
0.21x42/0.1x300... about a 60% savings.

Now, to reopen the discussion...

I had no idea that my thread was hi-jacked.

[Jim]

We didn't want to upset you.

[SeanF]

Huh, I though I had a typed up another response here, but it's not here.

Although; I think with the coin issue it's more a perception of "I don't like it" based on each individual's weighting of what the differences are.

No, that couldn't be. I have it on good authority that people who (think they) prefer a dollar bill over a coin are either stupid or just pig-headed. It's apparently not possible for someone who's even remotely intelligent to actually like dollar bills better than coins, and consider them worth the extra cost.

[Van Rijn]

See answer to question #1. I'm used to them. I don't want them.

You don't want them, but would it be an issue for you if we went that way? Do you think you wouldn't get used to them?

Already answered, but I've put the relevant text in bold this time.

[Van Rijn]

Huh, I though I had a typed up another response here, but it's not here.


No, that couldn't be. I have it on good authority that people who (think they) prefer a dollar bill over a coin are either stupid or just pig-headed. It's apparently not possible for someone who's even remotely intelligent to actually like dollar bills better than coins, and consider them worth the extra cost.

Heh. Of course, absolutely not possible.

[SkepticJ]

No, that couldn't be. I have it on good authority that people who (think they) prefer a dollar bill over a coin are either stupid or just pig-headed. It's apparently not possible for someone who's even remotely intelligent to actually like dollar bills better than coins, and consider them worth the extra cost.

What do you value in the paper currency?

[Van Rijn]

What do you value in the paper currency?

I can't speak for Sean, but I value it because paper money is lighter, less bulky, and easier to distinguish than the dollar coins. As it is I have too much coinage to carry around. I don't want more.

[Gillianren]

But the only way you know what bill is which is to look at it; why are coins so different in that regard?

[Trebuchet]

But the only way you know what bill is which is to look at it; why are coins so different in that regard?

My thought as well. Coins are at least somewhat distinguishable without vision by size and weight, bills in the US are all exactly the same size.

By the way, Gillian, can you guess the last place I got dollar coins in my change?

[Van Rijn]

But the only way you know what bill is which is to look at it; why are coins so different in that regard?

I just pulled out some bills, and it is trivially easy to distinguish them. I can't say the same for the dollar coins. In any event, as I already noted, that isn't my only issue with the coins.

[swampyankee]

Oddly, I've never had trouble telling pennies (pedantically, they're one cent pieces; pennies are British), nickels, dimes, quarters, half-dollars, and dollar coins apart, usually with much less effort than paper currency.

[SeanF]

What do you value in the paper currency?

Van Rijn gave a good answer to this question. The fact of the matter is, though, that I have never said whether I prefer dollar bills to dollar coins, nor whether I would object to, applaud, or merely tolerate the elimination of dollar bills. My opinion is one of many, and - taken by itself - meaningless. If there were a vote on the issue, I would cast my vote alongside everyone else.

But even if I do think the coin is better than the bill, I would not feel that my opinion on the matter supersedes anybody else's. And that's all it is - opinion. It's a case of personal preference, and is entirely subjective. What I do not find acceptable is the calling of people who don't share one's subjective preferences "stupid," regardless of my own preference in that particular regard.

As long as a significant percentage of the population wants to keep dollar bills, we should keep them.

[SeanF]

...pedantically, they're one cent pieces; pennies are British...

When the thread about Canada eliminating the penny was first posted, I made a bet with myself on how long it would take for this to come up (again), but I didn't put odds on it first coming up in a spin-off thread that ostensibly isn't even about the penny!

For what I believe is at least the fourth time on this board, the US one-cent piece is called a "penny," just as the five-cent piece is called a "nickel," the ten-cent piece a "dime," and the 25-cent piece a "quarter."

Go read the US Mint's webpage, and some of their press releases - even they use the word.

[swampyankee]

When the thread about Canada eliminating the penny was first posted, I made a bet with myself on how long it would take for this to come up (again), but I didn't put odds on it first coming up in a spin-off thread that ostensibly isn't even about the penny!

For what I believe is at least the fourth time on this board, the US one-cent piece is called a "penny," just as the five-cent piece is called a "nickel," the ten-cent piece a "dime," and the 25-cent piece a "quarter."

Go read the US Mint's webpage, and some of their press releases - even they use the word.

Well, pedantic and wrong. Perfect combination.

[Gillianren]

My thought as well. Coins are at least somewhat distinguishable without vision by size and weight, bills in the US are all exactly the same size.

It's true, of course, that the print on a bill is much bigger than that on a coin. But surely it's a bigger problem for the blind that bills are all the same size and shape than that coins aren't different enough.

By the way, Gillian, can you guess the last place I got dollar coins in my change?

I could take a stab in the dark, certainly!

[Perikles]

But surely it's a bigger problem for the blind that bills are all the same size and shape than that coins aren't different enough.

I had the impression that the blind can be incredibly sensitive to different coin sizes and weights, so I'm surprised that might be a problem. Having said that, I've never seen any USA currency. By the way - I can't offhand think of another country which has the same size banknotes for different denominations, and I find it rather unusual.

[novaderrik]

Unfortunately he died in the late 80s, but I think that he could have, it was amazing what he could tell just by touch. As Jim pointed out the SBAs have a raised polygon on the inside edge, which he could feel, but it was difficult in a rush.

I can't remember the last time I was given a dollar coin, I don't reject them. I haven't even seen any of the President dollar coins in well over a year.

They could try forcing them on the the U.S. public, but it is not likely. Politicians like their jobs, and want to keep them. For some reason Americans will go ape over inconveniences. The government has been trying to force that foreign system of measurement on the American public for decades, but it is like hitting a brick wall with a pillow, no sale.

David.

i've known quite a few people that were quite fluent in the metric system of weights and measures, specifically grams, kilograms, and cubic centimeters... and they were mostly high school dropouts..

[SeanF]

If the US is going to take a page out of Canada's book, maybe we should do something like this:

The new 25-cent piece, set to roll out of the Royal Canadian Mint on April 16, features the Pachyrhinosaurus lakustai, a giant herbivore whose partial remains were discovered in Grand Prairie by science teacher Al Lakusta in 1974. The dinosaur carries his name.

The application of photo-luminescent technology on the dinosaur's embossed surface means the moment it gets dark, the dino starts to glow.

[Taeolas]

I can't speak for Sean, but I value it because paper money is lighter, less bulky, and easier to distinguish than the dollar coins. As it is I have too much coinage to carry around. I don't want more.

Can't really argue against the weight or bulk factor, but identification factor does confuse me. All of the US bills I find I need to take them out and LOOK at them to tell which one is which and sort appropriately. All my trips to the States, I end up with a pile of bills and I can't easily tell if I have 10 1$'s or 9 1$'s and a 20$ or some other combination. While Canadian bills are all the same size (something we could improve on granted), they are distinctly coloured which makes them even easier to tell apart at a glance. If I see purple, I know I have a 10; green is 20, blue is a 5, red I'm shocked to find out I've got a 50$ and brown I wonder how I got a 100$.

On the other hand, I can reach into my pocket and just by feel, I can easily pull out any of the coins, just by size and texture (Toonies are easy to tell due to the bi-metal coins, not to mention their size, and the loonie's 11 sides helps as well). That does depend on the appropriate agencies making the basic coin design unique enough to identify like that, both by size and texture. By making the current US Dollar coins completely rounded, they IMO missed the boat there a little.

[NEOWatcher]

Can't really argue against the weight or bulk factor...

To me, it's not an issue but to comment on the rest of your post.
I can understand the difference in color helps a lot. But, somehow our familiarity to the currency has made identifying our bills not a problem.
Perhaps it's the way different people carry them. Using a wallet, I am in the habit of just thumbing through the corners, and it's fairly easy.
I can identify by feel (at least most of the time) the coins.
But; I wonder if one of the issues with people not wanting more coins is that the way they tend to use them.
I can understand that if you are used to looking at your currency to pull something out that coins would be a little more difficult because they are never in a neat pile to thumb through.

If the US is going to take a page out of Canada's book, maybe we should do something like this:

That would be cool for normal distribution if the coating was durable and the luminescence were not fleeting (like needing to hold it under a bright light so you can watch it glow for about 10 seconds)

There's a few statements in there that make me laugh:

the first Canadian coin you can find at the bottom of your purse without a flashlight.

That statement doesn't work with...

means the moment it gets dark, the dino starts to glow.

It's been in the dark already.
And...

They will retail for $29.95 at most Canada Post outlets.

At that price, I doubt they will be at the bottom of anyone's purse.

[Taeolas]

To me, it's not an issue but to comment on the rest of your post.
I can understand the difference in color helps a lot. But, somehow our familiarity to the currency has made identifying our bills not a problem.
Perhaps it's the way different people carry them. Using a wallet, I am in the habit of just thumbing through the corners, and it's fairly easy.
I can identify by feel (at least most of the time) the coins.
But; I wonder if one of the issues with people not wanting more coins is that the way they tend to use them.
I can understand that if you are used to looking at your currency to pull something out that coins would be a little more difficult because they are never in a neat pile to thumb through.

Well, I find in general coins are easy enough to 'pile' up, at least a small handful of coins like you would find in your pocket. Once it is piled up, you can then easily get the biggest denomination coin by gripping the edge of the pile and letting the smaller coins fall out. At least that's what I usually do for quarters. Loonies and Toonies are big enough that I can tell them by feel right away, and I don't usually have a large large number of them in my pocket, like you tend to build up with pennies, nickles and dimes. (and even quarters). Pennies and Dimes annoyingly are the hardest to tell apart using that pile method since dimes are smaller than Pennies. At least for Canucks that won't be as much of a concern in a few more years now. Though the nickles are still bigger than dimes. *sigh*

In general though, remember that you are using around 4x fewer coins for a purchase with dollar coins than you would without dollar coins too, since a dollar coin 'replaces' 4 quarters. 2$ coins make it even easier. With the coins so easy to identify by touch, I find I can easily pluck out a toonie to pay for some snacks, or a loonie for the parking meter much easier than fumbling for a bill from a pile of bills, and identifying the right bill, or a 'closest' reasonable bill and getting more bills back. (Spoken from experience, having shopped in both Canada and the States); or spending more time trying to find enough quarters and smaller change to pay for a 1.25$ meter that doesn't take bills.

Having grown up with bills with different dominant colours, I probably don't have the habits that USians have; but the fact that you need to 'thumb through the corners' to tell the difference between bills seems to be a failing in the currency design. With the Canadian bills, you don't have to store/sort them in a particular way; just slightly fan the bills that may be turned any which way, and you can tell at a glance (or at least a glance and a count), how many of each bill you have. Or thumb through the bills, which can be any which way, in your wallet and get a similar count. Granted, people who use the bills daily get used to them, and can probably tell by wear and by the patterns what bill is which, even if they can only see a bit of the bill; but it feels to me like a lot more work than just seeing "Red == 50$, Blue == 5$, Purple == 10$, etc...". And the fact we don't have 1's and 2's now does mean we have fewer bills in those piles too.

Of course, that all said, for me personally, I barely use cash at all nowadays. I've had a few pay periods ( 2 week periods ) where I've nearly gone the entire 2 weeks without touching a coin or a bill of any sort, and up here that does seem to be the route the Mint wants to head in too. Pure anonymous digital currency that is. (And I do think someone linked that previously on one of these threads)

[SeanF]

In general though, remember that you are using around 4x fewer coins for a purchase with dollar coins than you would without dollar coins too, since a dollar coin 'replaces' 4 quarters.

No. Each dollar coin replaces a single dollar bill. Any quarters you had or used with the bills, you'd still have or use with the dollar coins.

Of course, that all said, for me personally, I barely use cash at all nowadays. I've had a few pay periods ( 2 week periods ) where I've nearly gone the entire 2 weeks without touching a coin or a bill of any sort, and up here that does seem to be the route the Mint wants to head in too. Pure anonymous digital currency that is. (And I do think someone linked that previously on one of these threads)

Now, that's interesting. Anonymous digital currency I could get behind, as long as I was convinced it was truly as anonymous as cash.