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Thread: Ever been a "plausible" ATM idea on BAUTforums?

  1. #1
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    Ever been a "plausible" ATM idea on BAUTforums?

    Hi! Long time lurker here.

    A question about the ATM sub-forum:

    The ATM claims/discussions seemingly always ends the in the same fasion,
    with the claimant(?) failing to provide the math or evidense to support the theory.

    I am interested to know if there have ever been a ATM theory posted here which was not totally ripped apart.

    Anyone remembers any off the top of their head?
    It would be interesting to read.

  2. #2
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    don't think so... but there have been some fun ones..

  3. #3
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    I know of two, possibly three, but I'm not sure I can help you as far finding them. The most recent one was one by one of our moderators, Grapes, he may be able to point you to his thread. Another one, was by sweetster (I think that is how his name was spelled) having to do with quaternions and their use in physics(Interestingly, I just saw his name pop up on the list of birthdays a couple of days ago, and I don't think he's been active here for 5-6 years). The last one I remember was an effort by three posters. It was an idea that started in ATM, was taken to PM and then was developed with empirical support. It was the interpretation of the empirical observations that was ATM. However, if I remember correctly, the ATM part was downplayed (or entirely left out) in the paper that was submitted and accepted by an mainstream publication. I wish I could help you with who wrote it, and what the exact idea was. You might get a few answers from some of the others that have been around here for a long time, say more than six or seven years.

    I also believe that there were several where the evidence presented was very weak or non existent. But, the idea wasn't so ridiculous or so poorly presented as to be dismissed out of hand(the poster actually appeared to understand physics and/or wasn't mathematically challenged, actually answered questions, accepted corrections, understood the use of "I don't know" and didn't achieved a positive score in their first post(in the first paragraph in the more extreme cases), on John Baez's crackpot index

  4. #4
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    Sure: http://www.bautforum.com/showthread....18#post1935418

    ETA: sorry, just that this question gets asked a lot. I'll plug in some more direct links later.

  5. #5
    There are also times when an ATM proposal can't really be ripped apart because it isn't saying anything substantial enough to be ripped apart in the first place. A stupid example would be something like an ATM suggesting that west is really east and east is really west.
    As above, so below

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    Yes there has. Mine!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    There are also times when an ATM proposal can't really be ripped apart because it isn't saying anything substantial enough to be ripped apart in the first place. A stupid example would be something like an ATM suggesting that west is really east and east is really west.
    That's easy, at noon, looking in the direction of the sun, East is always on your left.

  8. #8
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    one of mine too?

    perhaps i shouldn't have posted it in "Against The Mainstream" here at B.A.U.T. (but rather as a question?).
    I first posted it in "Alternative Theories" at U.T but since there was no resolution (and we then merged with B.A to form B.A.U.T) i posted it in A.T.M, but A.T.M has a much more combative form than A.T at U.T.
    Although i admit that i went a bit too far (at both sites) by theorising too much without any evidential backup beyond the primary data which is very limited.

    the main part of the theory (that i would like to have considered by mainstream) is that there is a newly formed mass being ejected by the nuclear jet of galaxy M87.

    wrt this it only goes "against mainstream" in the sense that (i believe, but could be wrong) mainstream usually regards the products of jets as being essentially inconsequential, whereas i consider the one i'm talking about as being a new creation that may continue to exist and possibly evolve into a dwarf galaxy (or more likely an "Ultra Compact Dwarf" of which there are supposedly many of these in the vicinity of the jet).

    i'll stop there and try to refrain from postulating anything more about the subject.

    ********************************

    attached is the image which is a multiwavelength composite.

    red = V.L.A Radio (ie: anything red is radio emitting material)
    green = H,S.T optical (anything yellow is visible light emitting material)
    blue = Chandra Xray (anything blue is xray emitting material)

    nb: red and green mix together to make yellow.
    red, green and blue mix to make white.
    the picture at bottom is the H.S.T image by itself.

    the Chandra image was the last to be taken by mainstream and so the mass at far right was unknown until recently.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	m87 comparison.gif 
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    nb: the left side of the mass is hidden by a yellow conical section of optical material which matches the form of that area of xray material. ie: the xray mass is oval in shape.
    Last edited by PetersCreek; 2012-Mar-14 at 04:12 PM. Reason: Restored deleted/edited post [revisionism]

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnold Rimmer View Post
    Hi! Long time lurker here.

    A question about the ATM sub-forum:

    The ATM claims/discussions seemingly always ends the in the same fasion,
    with the claimant(?) failing to provide the math or evidense to support the theory.

    I am interested to know if there have ever been a ATM theory posted here which was not totally ripped apart.

    Anyone remembers any off the top of their head?
    It would be interesting to read.
    When I looked into this question, in some detail, five years' ago now, I noted only two that came close. One very long-running thread/idea I excluded from my analysis, and as grapes later pointed out, I'd missed another one (his).

    Has anything changed, in the last five years? I.e. if you extrapolate my finding (~3, over ~18 months) to this more recent period, how likely is it that you'll find ~10?

    As others have already noted, there are, in fact, some that would meet your criterion (in the positive sense). As many as ten? I don't think so.

    However, as has also been noted, lots of ATM ideas ('theory' is far too good a word to apply) have not been totally ripped apart for 'not good' reasons; for example, the ATM proponent was banned (for reasons that have nothing to do with the ATM idea), the idea was withdrawn (so no ripping apart was done), the idea was so vague it could not even be clearly stated (much less ripped apart), ...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nereid View Post
    However, as has also been noted, lots of ATM ideas ('theory' is far too good a word to apply) have not been totally ripped apart for 'not good' reasons; for example, the ATM proponent was banned (for reasons that have nothing to do with the ATM idea), the idea was withdrawn (so no ripping apart was done), the idea was so vague it could not even be clearly stated (much less ripped apart), ...
    As others have pointed out, sometimes a thread is started in ATM that is more of a question and so gets moved elsewhere. And there have been a few threads that were more metaphysics or philosophy, and so could not really be decided pro or con based on facts alone.
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tensor View Post
    That's easy, at noon, looking in the direction of the sun, East is always on your left.
    Yeah but, you see, left is really right and right is really left

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    Thanks guys! Lots of good answers and info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tensor View Post
    That's easy, at noon, looking in the direction of the sun, East is always on your left.
    In both the Northern and Southern Hemispheres?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadava View Post
    In both the Northern and Southern Hemispheres?
    If you look at the end of the line in my post, you'll see a wink emoticon. I was kidding/joking.

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    In one of my early posts--just to kick the ball around--I suggested that perhaps the Teton event ( the great daylight fireball of 1972) might have been a von Neumann probe doing an aerobrake in that it rather looked like the aeroshells released by these two missions:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stardust_(spacecraft)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_(spacecraft)
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4614222.stm

    The Teton fireball stayed in atmosphere for 1,500 km, and was supposed to return to Earth. If a probe had dumped most of its speed using engine power, and needed to slough off a bit more speed, then a 2010 Leonov type aerobrake maneuver would look similar.

    My point was that--if we were ever really visited by a alien spacecraft--it would look a lot like the Teton event--and not some Disco light show.

    In the old planet X section, I mentioned DM 61 366, which is the closest thing anywhere near the whole Nibiru/Nemesis/When-Worlds-Collide deal. That was called Gilese 710 now, or so I learned...
    Last edited by publiusr; 2012-Mar-17 at 07:28 PM.

  16. #16
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    One point that should be made is that even if
    a new idea is compelling and has impressive
    evidence, most will not want to believe it unless
    the origins of the new breakthrough are seen as
    legitimate. That is from a professor or normal
    science journal. indeed it may be harmful for
    the career prospects of a scientific worker to
    champion any unconventional originator.

    The only hope for a lone investigator is for
    some ultra compelling evidence. But even then
    it may be the established people in that area
    of investigations will not countenance any
    invasion of their ballywick.

  17. #17
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    Now that IS an ATM
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by peteshimmon View Post
    The only hope for a lone investigator is for
    some ultra compelling evidence.
    Ultra compelling? Does that mean, evidence that can be reproduced in other scientists' labs? Is that what you mean by "ultra compelling"?

  19. #19
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    Not from my experience it ain't, Henrik!



    Compelling as it proves the idea unquestionably
    correct!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by peteshimmon View Post
    Not from my experience it ain't, Henrik!



    Compelling as it proves the idea unquestionably
    correct!
    Considering that dark energy isnt unquestioned, I would have to agree with Henrik.

  21. #21
    I thought my ATM proposing that the moon was actually a giant brain, was quite compelling.

  22. #22
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    Actually I have just realised it is five
    years since my idea was "almost" proved.
    Without going into it too much, I worked
    out there should be bursts of radiation
    from some white dwarfs at certain times.
    One such was WD0553+053 at the bottom of
    the Orion constellation. On this day five
    years ago, the INTEGRAL spacecraft detected
    grb070311. When I saw the initial co-ordinates
    I was amazed, they were virtually the same as
    the star except for 2 degrees in declination.
    But for those 2 degrees, the burst would have
    been within one arc minute of my predicted
    star and I would have pointed this out in
    no uncertain terms!

    So why be agitated about it? Well I worked
    out it was about a 1 in 800,000
    chance the minutes and seconds in RA and
    Dec being so near my predicted star. And
    that was understating it for the RA hour
    was the right one. So 1 in 20,000,000 really.
    Just bad luck? I was very suspicious!

    But I could not really believe in a cover up
    of my success, too many people would have to
    be involved. And I have had further thoughts
    that I have put down in the ATM section.

    No one as yet accepts my idea which seems
    really wierd sometimes. But you may do one
    day

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
    ...there is a newly formed mass being ejected by the nuclear jet of galaxy M87.
    After discussing a similar question for over two years and 2,890 posts, I think this is why ATMers now have just 30 days to make their case.

    BTW, you're going to have to explain how you know the mass was not already out there and was just "lit up" by the jet.
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar View Post
    ....you're going to have to explain.....
    i can't, i don't have the skills, so i'll retract what i said.

  25. #25
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    I have always wondered why the ATM doesn't a horde of tinkerer who are developing methods to confirm current theory with novel approaches rather than the usual fair of theorist who try to disprove all current theory. I would think that would be both ATM and compelling. Especially if the novel approach was easier the current methods.

    The only examples I can think of is "This experiment is an analog for x and here is a comparison of my work vs. current observations..." I could see a single person finding an easier approach for describing a known process, or perhaps providing insight into a recognised but poorly understood process without actually a direct solution.

    That would be cool to see in ATM.
    Solfe

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  26. #26
    Maybe an "almost" - I think it was trinitree who suggested that, if much of the dark matter is in molecular hydrogen, we should see threads of dissociated and ionized gas from GRBs shooting through nearby galaxies. Haven't had proper time to work that out - at the high energies of GRBs one has to dig into nuclear physics to get the outcome of interactions with H atoms. I have a local colleague with experience in this context, but he got busy after his house was taken out by the tornado. But working out its feasibility remains on my want-to-do list.

  27. #27
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    another one of the "ideas" that i raised in the past (and posted both at U.T and later here) was that there was redshifting along the length of the jet of quasar 3c273.

    i based this idea on a multiwavelength image i'd made of the jet which i posted to the sites mentioned. (see attached image)

    blue = xray
    green = optical
    red = radio

    Click image for larger version. 

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    its a little rough, but you can see that there's "blue" xray emission on the side nearest to the black hole and "red" radio emission on the side farthest from it.

    about six months after i'd posted this at B.A.U.T (and probably more than a year after i'd posted it at U.T) a mainstream group of astronomers published a similar finding about the same jet and again similarly based on a multiwavelength image.

    http://www.spitzer.caltech.edu/image...scope-of-Color

    "A kaleidoscope of colours represents the jet's assorted light waves. X-rays, the highest-energy light in the image, are shown at the far left in blue (the black hole itself is well to the left of the image). The X-rays were captured by Chandra. As you move from left to right, the light diminishes in energy, and wavelengths increase in size. Visible light recorded by Hubble is displayed in green, while infrared light caught by Spitzer is red. Areas where visible and infrared light overlap appear yellow."

    Click image for larger version. 

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    ************************************************** ********************************
    perhaps when we get a gamma ray telescope with much improved angular resolution we'll see the space between the black hole and the left side of the jet (where the xray emission begins) filled in, and that section will no longer be blank like how it looks now?

  28. #28
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    I've reviewed a few, but regardless of their merit, BAUT's ATM is a burn pit, not a serious review board. Punt and try elsewhere.

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    thanks for your honest perspective

    ************************************

    there's a point i forgot to mention wrt to that concept of redshifting along the length of the jet of quasar 3c273, and its something i included when i previously posted about this subject at U.T and B.A.U.T. but is not raised by the spitzer team in the above article.

    if there really is "redshifting" along the length of the jet then the understanding that the (first?) quasar is very far away might be incorrect.

    for example, if a team checked the optical emission and found it redshifted by a set amount and then another team checked it in infra red and found the same redshift factor and then another team checked it in radio and found the same amount of redshifting they may still all be wrong in thinking that the quasar is as far away as the redshifting implies.

    ie: with the redshifting being intrinsic to the peculiar physics of the jet, then it has nothing to do with distance. and the fact that this happens over a broad range of wavelengths would have only served to reinforce an incorrect appraisal of the situation.

  30. #30
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    That scenario you mention, ngc3314, of
    threads of ionised hydrogen in galaxies.
    It reminded me of something. Ahh yes...
    the Klingon ship leaving a trail in
    that comet!

    I'm not taking the mickey, honest.

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