This discussion seems to be boiling down to whos word salad fantasy weaponry is better. Unless you set some baselines for actual comparisons, all you will be doing is saying, mine is better! is not! is too! is not! is too!
This discussion seems to be boiling down to whos word salad fantasy weaponry is better. Unless you set some baselines for actual comparisons, all you will be doing is saying, mine is better! is not! is too! is not! is too!
You are right on those ship facts, but check these out!
A Imperial-class Star Destroyer is 1605m.
60 laser cannons.
10 missle launchers.
10 proton torpedo launchers.
10 tractor beam projectors.
It also has many shields and many fighters.
Second of all, A Super Star Destroyer is 19000m.
It has 500 laser cannons, 550 turbolasers, 300 missle launchers, 350 proton launch tubes. And, it has tractor beams, shields, and a super weapon (capable of destroying a ship in one shot!). Thousands of fighters.
Let's see the Covenant match a 19000m ship!
Last edited by Grand Admiral Thrawn; 2007-Mar-21 at 01:39 AM.
In response to comment #55, Amen!
Maybe, but then the Master Chief would come back from the dead and work out how to kill the imperial knight. Now someone mentioned some star wars guy who can come back from the dead too. If they fought each other what would happen is they would both keep killing each other until the first to kill the other a certain number of times would be declared the winner. But sometimes they would grab each others flags instead.1 Imperial Knight could beat Master Chief.
I like Halo and Star Wars very much; but, I know if it was Milky Way (Halo) vs. Star Wars galaxy, Star Wars would win hands down.
First of all: You donít have to sound condescending, I try to do my research well, and the things that I canít find I ask about. Is that so wrong? Also the double post was my bad, the computer was acting up and didnít register the first post until an hour or so later.
Second: I was agreeing because of sheer numbers of ships. The Covenant would be out numbered 10:1 or even 20:1
Third: Particle Shields still wouldnít protect their ships from Plasma Torpedoes, but Ray Shields would, and that still doesnít mean that they would skip off the shields. As for power, a Plasma Torpedo is a massive ball of plasma that is guided to enemy ships from the ship it was fired from. Im not sure of the Power behind that amount of Plasma but from what I would understand it should take only a dozen or more hits to down shields and start boiling away the hull.
Forth: Pulse lasers were meant to be used as point defense, although they had the range and accuracy to target capitol ships. There is no comparison between one ships main weapons and anothers point defense. Unless you assumed that a ball of plasma the size of an asteroid guided into an enemy ship is point defense?
Fifth: the Gravity well projectors donít stop a ship from moving, theyíre meant to stop a ship from entering Hyperspace. As for tractor beams the mass and momentum of the Cov. Ships would allow them to be able to escape them, Mind you, it would be annoying for them, but it would not hold them in place.
Sixth: the AT-ATís size is correct and Iím not sure of the exact size of the Scarab but I tested it. I jumped off the top of it and counted how long it was to die on impact, it took around 3 seconds to hit the ground. So since I fell at 9.8m/s/s (I accelerated by 9.8m per second) and since my downward velocity was nill when I started the jump, this figure states that the height of the Scarab is about 50 to 60 meters. Of course this is just my math and is not canon to my knowledge, so this point is still murky.
Seventh: I do believe that the Plasma canon is hot enough to, if not melt then stress Doonium to the point at were it will at least bend and be useless. As for a direct hit on that enormous target of a head, itís the same mistake that the UNSC ships make: placing command in front like a shield, instead of tucking it away were it will be useful.
Eighth: I cant find in my research the variant that you describe with missiles, though there is the standard one that has a concussion grenade launcher.
Ninth: It wouldnít matter if the trooper was seasoned or not, because even a Blackbelt would loss to someone ten times their strength, and skilled at killing.
Last: I will grant you your precious Mk 3 armor, because you stated that it was ďLikeĒ the armor from ďTinian On TrialĒ. As Iím sure that youíve read, that research complex was destroyed, and all research lost (Except the cut off hardware of one suit). If the suits used the same ďAnti-EnergyĒ field, then yes plasma would have a tough time hurting the trooper, but then theyíd pull a carbine out and shoot him to death. I say this because the god armor of the Stormtroopers isnít imperious to projectile fire as youíd assume. The 18 plastoid parts of the main body can and will stop a projectile, but the body glove canít, nor can the visor, and if the projectile is of sufficient size, velocity, or is designed to be armor-piercing then it stands a decent chance to penetrate the shell as well.
PS: If one Clone Commando is equal to a Spartan then the rebels were F***ed from the beginning, so I really donít think they are equal. First a Spartan is hand picked to be genetically the best of the best, this would be more than equal to picking Jango Fett. Then they were given training since childhood, same as the clones. But thatís were the similarities stop, were clones given ďCarbide ceramic ossificationĒ were their bones were made nigh-unbreakable? Were the clones Muscles amplified and enhanced? Were they tuned to be bigger and stronger than any human that has ever come before? Were they given better natural sight? And were their reflexes increased by 300%... I think not. That is an un-armored Spartan! When you can tell me that one unarmed & unarmored commando could take on twenty seasoned veterans and win without breaking a sweat, then Iíll just start to believe you.
In response to comment #70,
Sorry for sounding harsh, I meant no harm.
You brought out a few points that are correct, but still you have some facts that are wrong.
First, the Covenant would be outnumbered 100-1 (I am not fooling around).
Second, You are correct. A particle shield wouldn't stop a plasma torpedo; because it is made of heated plasma energy. But, you are not quite correct on the ray shield issue. A Star Wars Deflector Shield (ray shield) absorbs energy weapons during combat. You are right in a sense that they wouldn't "skip off", but you are wrong because the plasma energy would be absorbed. Civilian-grade Deflector Shields do not last long, but Imperial Military-grade Deflector Shields can last for a very long time (they can even get recharged by the absorbed blasts). They only way to stop a Deflector Shield is to blow the projector or wait until it burns out. A Imperial Star Destroyer is equipped with Military-grade Shields. So in the end, a plasma torpedo would be absorbed by the shield. But, a plasma torpedo is a very effective way to destroy unshielded ships.
Third, what I meant was that a turbolaser is better than pulse lasers (which is true); because, a turbolaser is charged to 480D and a pulse laser isn't enough to match that. A pulse laser is great for point defense, but then again, a shielded ship wouln't have trouble avoiding damage (like a Star Destroyer). Also, turbolaser is a great way to take out a Deflector Shield by a continual salvo of shots (too bad the Covenant doesn't have some).
Fourth, You are correct that a Covenant ship could escape the gravity-wells, and it's size doesn't matter; because, An Interdictor Cruiser has 4 Military-gade Tractor beams that could hold ships 7 times their original size (see the book Labyrinth of Evil). So in the end, It would only take two Interdictors to hold a Covenant Ship (and the Empire has many of them).
Fifth, An Imperial All Terrain Armored Transport Walker (AT-AT) is 75.5 meters tall. A Scarab is about 64.2 meters tall. Like I said before, "an AT-AT is about 15 meters taller" it is really about 10.8 meters taller (so an AT-AT towers a scarab!).
Sixth, I don't think you even know what Doonium is. You see, Doonium is one of the only alloy that can be super heated and not melt. Doonium can even be placed in lava. The Empire used Doonium for its' Imperial Walkers, Lava Trooper armor, and even parts of the Death Star! A plasm cannon wouldn't ever be able to melt an AT-AT's armor. The only weak spot on tha AT-AT its' the unprotected neck. And you can only hit the neck from above, below, or to the side of it.
Seventh, Watch Episode III. See the part with the Venator-class Star Destroyer battles the Seperatist Ship. Those cannons are MG-A proton torpedo launchers. Also installed on Imperial-class Star Destroyer, which has four of them (as seen in Star Wars: Dark Lord and Star Wars: Jedi Trial). Or check out, Star Wars The New Essential Guide To Vehicles & Vessels[look in a Layperson's guide to technology (page xii, the part about Proton Torpedoes)] at your local library.
Eighth, You don't seem to understand that the Empire has been in more wars the Covenant can count (and that is alot!). I did not say "seasoned" for no reason. The Imperial troops have fought off, in ground combat, aliens that are 10-25 times stronger than an Elite(like wookies, trandoshans, and even Jedi!). The Seasoned troopers have lived to tell the tales about it. A Trandoshan is about 15 times stronger than an Elite (when have you seen an Elite lift a ship the size of the Slave 1!!!!). The Stormtrooper fight enemies stronger than themselves with Power Gloves (with those gloves they would be stronger than a Spartan).
Ninth, I said "like" for a good reason. I know the resaerch was lost,but the Empire looked for different armorers after the "Tinian on Trial" era. About 60 years after the Battle of Yavin, the Empire used Mark III Stormtrooper armor (as seen in the Dark Horse Star Wars Legacy #0) which is the same thing as the armor in "Tinian on Trial". That is why I said "like". Actually, the visor and body glove was also made with "projectile proof" material (like the ones the Mandalorians used). Anyways, Mark II Stormtrooper armor can absorb the blasts of unconcentrated plasma like a "glancing bolt" would (Mark II is the armor seen in the films).
Tenth, Jango Fett was "the best of the best", but not only did the clones end commandos get a life of training; but, they also got bone, stamina, health, vision, muscle, brain, nerve, and strenghth enhancements (like the Spartans, but without the nasty side affects). Clones became stronger than ordinary humans, but Clone Commandos became super humans (like spartans, but better). Commandos reflexes are up to 500% better than normal (see Republic Commando). A Commando wears Katarn armor which could stop even concentrated plasma bolts!!!!!!!!!!In the Star Wars dark hores Republic comics, an unarmored clone owned abou 40 mercs from Nar Shaddaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A squad of Clone Commandos could take on many Spartans!!!!!!
And, you seem to forget that the Rebel Alliance was DOOMED from the start. It just so happens that the foolish Emperor put 2/3 of the Clone Commando squads on the Death Star that was blown away! That is why the Rebels didn't face many Commandos.
Last edited by Grand Admiral Thrawn; 2007-Mar-21 at 10:17 PM. Reason: "Hail Emperor Roan Fel!"
Guys, just a request to play nice and keep things in perspective? Halo is fiction. Star Wars is fiction. You can't compare them directly without a common baseline. There isn't one. The worlds are quite different. I'd suggest incompatably so.
One objective comparison I think we can agree on: FTL space transit is trivial in the Star Wars universe. It's accessible to absolutely anybody with the money to book passage on a ship, even in time of war. In the Halo universe, space flight is available only to the military. Civilians travel only with great difficulty, if at all.
Military capability shouldn't be judged by the power of individual weapons, or the thickness of armor. Viet-Nam taught a harsh lesson we'd forgotten. You can lose every battle and still win the war. The real secret is logistics and mobility. The ability to strike meaningfully where needed, when appropriate.
The Star Wars universe has the advantage in both their mobility and their logistics. Individual weapons don't count when you can't find or intercept their forces, or prevent their ability to strike at will.
Better? No. They're different universes.
Ok then, lets stop our bickering for the moment and at least try to find a common baseline between these two universes.
Here goes some numbers that I pulled for what Iím using on the Plasma weapons
Most plasma technologies that we can understand in real life use ďCold PlasmaĒ, now even though it is ďColdĒ itís still around 7000 degrees C.
!Nerd Rant Warning!
Also in the game manual the Core Power output on a Plasma Pistol is rated at 100kV - 150kV and 2dA - 3dA. That would be 100,000V - 150,000V and .2A - .3A. So multiplying them we get the amount of Watts. So that would be 20,000W - 45,000W. This is a good unit for power but not joules, to get this converted to Joules, we make it into a Watt/hour. Which would come to 1,200,000W/h - 2,700,000W/h. After getting watt/hours itís time to convert to joules, as 1 Watt/hour equals 3,600joules, the final number is 4,320,000,000J - 9,720,000,000J.
Thatís one big battery!
Now thatís how much energy is in a fully loaded Plasma gun, lets average it to 7GJ. Now as I stated in my first post here I had ran a StarWars RPG that had covenant in it. I had to find out how many shots each gun had, and well I did, Plasma Rifle = 200 shots, Plasma Pistol = 300 shots or 11 at overcharge. So divide the battery by the number of shots and you get the output in joules per shot. Plasma Rifle = 35MJ/shot, Plasma Pistol 23MJ, Overcharged Plasma Pistol = 63MJ
Now there is going to be loss of power, through inefficiencies and equipment factors, so reduce each by 50% for magnetic containment, and energy loss to environment.
New Figures: Plasma Rifle = 17MJ, Pistol = 11MJ, and if Overcharged = 31MJ.
Ok now that itís all figured out we can compare to other energy based weapons.
Finally, to me that looks alright. But if Iíve made a mistake in my calculation donít hold back, tell me.
Also by all accounts in the books I think the force is with John - 117
On top of that, what you're describing is unsurvivable by humans.Yet, all marines and all covies (even the grunts) could and did survive getting shot by plasma weaponry in game. Even the plasma pistols on full overcharge. Only the sniper gear and explosive shot (rocket launcher and grenade equivs) could insta-kill anybody.
For Halo, the game canon necessarily has to trump the books. Even the technobabble guide. Just like the movies necessarily trump anything in the SW EU.
Computing the height of the Scarab by MC's fall time was clever, though. I don't think in-engine gravity was correctly set at 9.8m/s^2, even on "Earth", but it is a clever approach to getting that measurement.
Moose you are correct that each gun states that it has 100, but that's a %.
Also I was off by double on how much the Rifle could fire, every four shots it decreased by 1%, which would mean it has a capacity of 400 shots instead of 200. As well the Pistol fires around 2.5 shots for every 1% coming to roughly 250-280 shots, with only 7 overcharge
so New Figures: Rifle: 8.8MJ/shot, Pistol: 13.4MJ/shot, OC: 500MJ (bear in mind most of it is channeled into the magnetic field, this is so it can home in on targets, basically Iíd say only 1% actually discharges and the discharge is very unconcentrated in comparison.)
As for the issue of game canon vs book canon, it would be a more likely assumption that the books are played out at a setting somewhere between Heroic and Legendary. By that I mean that All weapons deal Legend damage, but are at Heroic accuracy. Donít forget the game mechanics make the enemies harder to kill than they would be on higher levels. I'd also say that allies die like legend and covies die like easy. fair assumption?
Also the reason that those troopers in halo could take that kind of punishment was do to rely good armor and a good shot of Biofoam. Basically think sealant, disinfectant, and blood cloter, its also speeds healing. Most new armor has an auto-dispenser built in.
oh and also the various races of the covenant are rely risiliant in comparison to a human, that and a mortal wound to us, might not be for an Elite.
More assumptions on your part. Dude, you can't handwave these things in without evidentiary justification. And, again, the "difficulty" of the books means very little versus the difficulty level of the game. I'd suggest "normal" means precisely that.As for the issue of game canon vs book canon, it would be a more likely assumption that the books are played out at a setting somewhere between Heroic and Legendary.
Ok, you could be right about the guns, for multiplayer. As I was writing my last post I was re-testing how much they fired, but I was in the main game. they might have a different capacity in live.
for the canon on that I'll go with the story mode.
*surprised grunt* Hold on, I may be about to retract this point. For kicks I pulled up one of the weapon FAQs on gameFAQs, and it's claiming the same thing as you are. I'm going to fire up Halo2 tonight and confirm this.
*mutters* Strange I would never have noticed such a thing, though. I generally keep pretty close track of my ammo.
No, the force is not with John.
Those numbers are correct.
But, as I keep saying, Star Wars blasters (see SW: The Complete Visual Dictionary) use plasma activated by a power cell to be converted into a heat chamber that is released from a magnetic bottle effect into an acid fire through collimating components as a coherent energy bolt that travels through galven circuitry and some lens crystals which concentrate the plasma energy into thin plasma bolt that is heated to the right amount to penetrate the plastoid energy absorbant armor that Imperial troops wear.
Last edited by Grand Admiral Thrawn; 2007-Mar-28 at 01:14 AM.
Ok then, Thrawn if the Force is Not with John then he must have Luck x10. Now that I could believe, as all throughout the books heís been stated to be extremely lucky.
And whoís numbers are correct, to me both are. But I got my numbers from story mode, were Moose got his from Live and multiplayer games.
Also about the guns, itís the end amount of energy that is discharged that we should concentrate on as that is roughly the amount that would reach the target and deal damage. What I think your caught up on is that your confusing the fact that a foil is better than a sledgehammer in battle. Each do damage in their own way, but each are equally deadly in the hands of an expert.
Your numbers are correct and some of Moose's.
True, very true on the weapon issue. Each do their damage their own way. They are both deadly, yes, but the facts I was pointing out is the unless it is focused to the right point and heated to the right point. It won't penetrate the Imperial armor. That's all.
Ok, Granted that it coulden't pen. a troopers armor but it could splash onto the glove and thats less prtected then the Plastoid. we've seen from the game that when a plasma blast hits it has a small "puff" like explosion, if this were to hit around the edges of the plates then it could burn the trooper, effectivly wounding him.
But, on Mark III Stormtrooper armor, the Covenant weapons would be usless against it even on the body glove!
I guess it makes a sort of sense, I tend to prefer sticking with the Terran guns. They're more flexible, last much longer, and are just as good against shields as plasma if you keep your bursts short and under control.
I just want to point something out, however. I'm looking at a (fishing) speargun site right now. The largest speargun they carry is a bit over 1.6 meters long, and is designed to be loaded in stages because of the difficulty. They claim this ridiculous Captain Ahab Special of a man-portable harpoon delivers 900J of energy to the spear. (The smallest delivers "only" 30J to the spear.)
Now. Your 'babble guide claims an output of single-digit megajoules. Some constant x a million joules. A solid four orders of magnitude greater.
Do you still think Marines in Halo and Halo2 can withstand an impulse of energy ten thousand times greater than that of an overpowered marine speargun at point blank? Because they do almost as a matter of routine.
Another in-game experiment you can try. Take the pistol or magnum and shoot a marine in the chest. He survives, but takes damage at about the same rate as the equivalent covie weapon. Grunts take damage from basic human weapons at about the same rate as covie guns, too. A single headshot from a plasma rifle (a 2 shot burst) probably won't kill a grunt on normal. Neither will a single headshot from the pistol (Halo1). Not sure how many it takes from the magnum (Halo2) off hand. I never use it.
My point is that you can't really go by the 'babble guides as authoritative. The authors aren't really physicists, and they aren't really looking to be especially realistic. They're pulling numbers that sound exciting in order to fill pages and sell the book. I'm strongly suspecting that's what's happening here.
That's not to say I think the SW 'babble guides are any better. It's one reason why I said earlier individual weapons and armor really don't matter. Even the "official descriptions" are worthless. They can't be reliably quantified except by comparison of their observable effects with those of conventional weapons whose outputs we know.
I guess we have the same problem that scholars had, figuring out the power behind the first X-bows. Records that survived from ancient China stated how many shields could be penetrated by a X-Bow if stacked together, but records on the make of those test sheilds are gone. For all we know they could have been paper sheilds or even thick iron sheilds. The relitive data just dosen't exist.
The speargun point is also valid, but that's why I like to go by the books. they are a more realistic medium, as the game is made to be fair towards the player. The only thing in the games that we can base the power on are the characters, because most if not all of the environment is not distructible. If we were to see huge chunks of concrete and stone melt and explode from weapons fire, we could then use that data, but theres not enough space on the game discs to do that.
But for absolute proof on Halo weapons we could wait for the Movie to come out. That at least will be unbiased towards realism, as we'll see the actual power behind each weapon.
And after that's released maby we'll get to see the Halo Bible. Info on everthing in the Halo universe (drool)