The Avengers!

[Gillianren]

The OED lists 1942 as the first written use of Einstein in the "He is no Einstein" meaning, 1944 as the next time.
It's quite likely Rogers didn't come across the expression before getting frozen, but he may have been aware of Einstein himself.

Sure, but given OED, it probably existed as an idiom for a while before being written down. I must admit the line kind of bothered me, too, because Einstein was pretty well known by the time Steve Rogers went into the ice, and Coulson should have known that. I'll admit that I have a hard time with certain bits of chronology early in the last century (my brain will not accept that Relativity is older than the San Francisco earthquake), but such a total fanboy?

[Sam Bell]

One thing that kind of bugged me, though - when Coulson referred to Banner as being like "a Stephen Hawking" and Rogers didn't know who that was, why didn't Coulson use "Albert Einstein" instead of the generic "a really smart guy"? I was actually expecting to hear Coulson say "Einstein" before he said "Stephen Hawking" in the first place, so it really threw me when he didn't even use it for the alternative. Or am I wrong in assuming that by the time Rogers was frozen, Einstein would've been known as the quintessential "really smart guy"?

Coulson could have just slipped up, but they did lay it on kind of thick with that and the part about the Wizard of Oz reference.

[Gillianren]

I thought the flying monkeys line was one of the funniest, personally. I mean, the whole point of Cap in his first movie is that he's just a normal guy. In this movie, he's a normal guy in a world he doesn't really understand. Having a pop culture reference that he gets would have been a great relief to him.

[starcanuck64]

I thought the flying monkeys line was one of the funniest, personally. I mean, the whole point of Cap in his first movie is that he's just a normal guy. In this movie, he's a normal guy in a world he doesn't really understand. Having a pop culture reference that he gets would have been a great relief to him.

Where was the flying monkeys line from, I'm a big Joss Whedon fan but found the movie moved a little fast for me to keep up sometimes, even after a couple of viewings, I'm pushing fifty and it could be oldtimers disease setting in.

[Moose]

Where was the flying monkeys line from, I'm a big Joss Whedon fan but found the movie moved a little fast for me to keep up sometimes, even after a couple of viewings, I'm pushing fifty and it could be oldtimers disease setting in.

Wizard of Oz.

[starcanuck64]

Wizard of Oz.

My bad, where was the line in the Avengers movie, I know it was in the scene where they were discussing Banner and his knowledge of gamma rays, but I can't place the context. I know I laughed at the time, I just don't remember why now.

[Gillianren]

I must admit I don't remember word-for-word myself; I've seen probably dozens of movies since I watched this one. But someone made a flying monkeys reference, and Cap piped up with, "I know that one!" Thor, clearly, did not.

[starcanuck64]

It was a pretty dense movie content wise, not your typical superhero movie.

[Rhaedas]

When they first get on S.H.I.E.L.D.'s flying ship, discussing Loki and his plans, and Nick Fury says he wants to know how Loki's staff works, and how it managed to turn two of his best men into Loki's personal flying monkeys.

[SeanF]

Oh, that's what it was. After Sam referred to "the Wizard of Oz" reference, I was wracking my brain trying to remember what "Wizard of Oz" reference. Watching that scene in the movie, I didn't catch the word "flying" - I knew they'd said something about monkeys, but didn't hear the rest. So when Captain Rogers said, "I get that one!" I didn't actually get it.

Now I do.

[Sam Bell]

I thought the flying monkeys line was one of the funniest, personally. I mean, the whole point of Cap in his first movie is that he's just a normal guy. In this movie, he's a normal guy in a world he doesn't really understand. Having a pop culture reference that he gets would have been a great relief to him.

Yeah, I know... I guess I'm just more of a Banner-joke fan.

[DonM435]

That's more of what I was thinking of - not necessarily that Einstein's name was commonly being used colloquially, but rather that he would understand what was meant by, "He's like an Albert Einstein." I highly doubt that "He's like a Stephen Hawking" has become a common colloquialism yet (and it would likely be common orally before being used in print), but just about anybody would understand that it meant he's an intelligent person.

And really, it just stuck out to me because my brain was filling in "Albert Einstein" before Coulson even said the name Hawking! I'm going to prefer to think that it's because I was considering Rogers' context rather than because I myself am just that old...

I believe that the fictitious scientist who created the Captain America treatment in the 1940s comic book was a "Dr. Reinstein"! This wordplay would indicate everyone knew just who Einstein was at that time.

[SeanF]

Speaking of Banner and the Hulk, one other thing I noticed that I was impressed with was the strong similarity in facial features between Mark Ruffalo and the CGI Hulk. They really held the illusion that it was essentially the same person.

[HenrikOlsen]

I believe that the fictitious scientist who created the Captain America treatment in the 1940s comic book was a "Dr. Reinstein"! This wordplay would indicate everyone knew just who Einstein was at that time.

Dr. Abraham Erskine.

But yes, quite likely a reference.

[Moose]

Speaking of Banner and the Hulk, one other thing I noticed that I was impressed with was the strong similarity in facial features between Mark Ruffalo and the CGI Hulk. They really held the illusion that it was essentially the same person.

I noted a strong facial similarity between CGI Hulk and Lou Ferringo.

[starcanuck64]

When they first get on S.H.I.E.L.D.'s flying ship, discussing Loki and his plans, and Nick Fury says he wants to know how Loki's staff works, and how it managed to turn two of his best men into Loki's personal flying monkeys.

Thank you

[Noclevername]

Dr. Abraham Erskine.

But yes, quite likely a reference.

The original 1941 comic gave him the name Reinstein; this was retconned in 1964 to Erskine when they brought back the character of Captain America. As continuity became more important to readers, "Reinstein" was handwaved as a secret codename to protect the good doctor's identity.

[Darmund]

I have a question related to Whedon's direction/dialogue.

First off, I think the [language] of Wedon is beyond lame and find the endless calls for the revival of Firefly beyond tiresome.

I also have seen little Buffy. I did see the movie and thought it was semi-decent to mehish, way too small a budget for a theatrical release though, the fact they had no money in the budget was painfully obvious many, many times.

As for the tv show, I finally got the first season on dvd on inter-library loan and...couldn't get past the third disc.

Got Firefly on loan as well and couldn't make it past the second disc. The premise was just beyond ludicrous; you have interstellar space travel, but you are still reduced to using actual 45 handguns as weapons? (Insert rolleyes)

But this is about the Avengers movie which I went and saw and was not made entirely vomitous by. But I have read in various places about all of the Whedonesque touches in terms of direction and the dialogue and I just can't see it. The direction was the same as you get in any by the numbers huge budget summer action movie which you craft in order to ensure a sequal. Nothing great about that. (And yes, I know exactly how facetious it is of me to say that and how it is no small thing to make a successful mega blockbuster.)

But I don't see how the dialogue was any different from your standard action flick, with the possible exception of there not being any comically over 'instant catchphrase' instant dialogue which didn't sound natural. The dialogue was comic-booky, which as far as dialogue goes is really rather stilted and lame. But I can't say that the dialogue in the movie was any better or more nuanced or emotional than in say Prometheus.

So, what am I missing?

[Gillianren]

For one thing, the characters were actually intelligent; frequently, characters are supposed to be but aren't. I'm so-so on Joss Whedon myself, though I could tell you what you're missing about Firefly, if you like, but explaining the directorial details which are obvious Joss Whedon would take a considerable amount of time and rewatching the movie. Again.

[R.A.F.]

The dialogue was comic-booky...

...and this surprises you, why??

[Moose]

Got Firefly on loan as well and couldn't make it past the second disc. The premise was just beyond ludicrous; you have interstellar space travel, but you are still reduced to using actual 45 handguns as weapons? (Insert rolleyes)

The reason for this becomes apparent... on disk three.

[Tog]

Got Firefly on loan as well and couldn't make it past the second disc. The premise was just beyond ludicrous; you have interstellar space travel, but you are still reduced to using actual 45 handguns as weapons? (Insert rolleyes)

They didn't have interstellar travel. All those worlds were planets and moons around a single star. Possibly a multiple star system. Someone worked out that there was actually a stable orbit for them that put many in a habitable zone.

For the weapons, when you consider the effectiveness of a bullet vs the effectiveness of a laser, a bullet can do far ore damage for the energy used to move it. It doesn't take a recharger or other power source, and would work just as well in space (aiming aside) as it would in air.

[Darmund]

...and this surprises you, why??

Where in my post did I say or imply that I was surprised in any way shape or form by the comic bookiness of the dialogue. It was only after I'd seen the movie and read some things in various places about the dialogue in the movie was Whedonesque, whatever that means that the question started forming.

And thanks so much for being completely unhelpful and utterly unwelcoming in answering the question I asked. I'll be sure to have you first on my list when I have other questions.

[starcanuck64]

I have a question related to Whedon's direction/dialogue.

First off, I think the [language] of Wedon is beyond lame and find the endless calls for the revival of Firefly beyond tiresome.

According to people who work with him it's how he actually talks. I find his dialogue in all his movies and TV series to be his strong point, his wordplay is amazing at times.

I also have seen little Buffy. I did see the movie and thought it was semi-decent to mehish, way too small a budget for a theatrical release though, the fact they had no money in the budget was painfully obvious many, many times.

He removed himself from the original movie production due to differences of opinion with the director, the idea was his the realization was someone elses.

As for the tv show, I finally got the first season on dvd on inter-library loan and...couldn't get past the third disc.

You should give it another try, it has it's ups and down, but there are some excellent episodes and plot archs throughout the series...until season six and seven. Try out individual episodes like Hush or The Body.

Got Firefly on loan as well and couldn't make it past the second disc. The premise was just beyond ludicrous; you have interstellar space travel, but you are still reduced to using actual 45 handguns as weapons? (Insert rolleyes)

I'm a longtime science fiction fan starting in the 1960s and I still find Firefly to be my favorite series, it's supposed to be a mix of the old and new if I remember correctly.

But this is about the Avengers movie which I went and saw and was not made entirely vomitous by. But I have read in various places about all of the Whedonesque touches in terms of direction and the dialogue and I just can't see it. The direction was the same as you get in any by the numbers huge budget summer action movie which you craft in order to ensure a sequal. Nothing great about that. (And yes, I know exactly how facetious it is of me to say that and how it is no small thing to make a successful mega blockbuster.)

It's the third most commerically successful movie of all time, and joined together four or more other existing story lines, I'm not sure who else could have even done this without producing a confusing hash. With the intense pacing and even more intense action it's still accessable to all audiences, the first time I saw it was at a Sunday matinee and the large number of kids at the show got most of the stuff the adults also reacted to...

But I don't see how the dialogue was any different from your standard action flick, with the possible exception of there not being any comically over 'instant catchphrase' instant dialogue which didn't sound natural. The dialogue was comic-booky, which as far as dialogue goes is really rather stilted and lame. But I can't say that the dialogue in the movie was any better or more nuanced or emotional than in say Prometheus.

One of the reasons Whedon was hired was his background in the comic world, he was true to the different story lines while still producing an excellent movie, I think it's a masterpiece, but then I'm obviously a big Joss Whedon fan.

[starcanuck64]

For the weapons, when you consider the effectiveness of a bullet vs the effectiveness of a laser, a bullet can do far ore damage for the energy used to move it. It doesn't take a recharger or other power source, and would work just as well in space (aiming aside) as it would in air.

And they also make that cool powering-up sound.

I get how some people find the cowboy/space opera aspect of Firefly weird, but it seems natural to me, I think it was shot in my home province so that might be part of its appeal.

[R.A.F.]

Where in my post did I say or imply that I was surprised in any way shape or form by the comic bookiness of the dialogue. It was only after I'd seen the movie and read some things in various places about the dialogue in the movie was Whedonesque, whatever that means that the question started forming.

Sorry, if I misrepresented your thoughts...I thought you were surprised that a movie based on a comic would have comic book dialogue.

My error...

And thanks so much for being completely unhelpful and utterly unwelcoming in answering the question I asked. I'll be sure to have you first on my list when I have other questions.

I just saw the movie today, so I couldn't very well form opinions or answer questions without seeing it first.



As for the movie, itself...

OH MY GOD...what a delightful comic book adaptation. Joss' "finger prints" are all over this movie, and that's a very GOOD thing. The story, by Whedon, is so strong, that the movie almost makes itself.

I could say much much more, but I don't know how spoilerish this thread is.

...but I will say I throughly enjoyed the movie as did my wife...she very much liked Captain America's "build".

[Noclevername]

...she very much liked Captain America's "build".

Funny, I feel the same way about Black Widow. ; )

[R.A.F.]

Funny, I feel the same way about Black Widow. ; )

I could watch the scene where she is "interrogating" Loki all day long.

...and Cobie Smuthers(sp?) was no slacker in her S.H.I.E.L.D. "outfit", either.

[Noclevername]

Smulders, IIRC.

[R.A.F.]

Smulders, IIRC.

Thanks...you're right...just too lazy to look it up...